The Smallbore Defensive Shotgun

A little bit of powder, and lots of lead, kills the game dead, dead, dead.
True then, true now. Don't underestimate shotguns. Even the little ones. It's a suckers bet, you probably won't live to regret. Germans wanted to ban them in WWI. Too nasty.
 
I can say this much...When I was a kid my single shot .410 put a boatload of rabbit on the table, as well as quail and pheasant. My brother did equally well with his 3-shot pumper. My dads 12 gauge wingmaster got the job done obviously but in the end dead was dead, and based on my recollections of digging pellets out of carcasses, it never seemed to take more than a few.

Dads rabbits were never any "deader" than ours. :)

I think any advantage he may have had with getting pellets on target due to having more in the air was probably offset by the greater difficulty in controlling the bigger, heavier, harder kicking 12 gauge.

I dont know that I see any real difference in shot placement requirements between the 2 when in an HD situation. On average I don't see the ranges involved allowing for much spread. If you hit it with the 12 odds are you'd hit it with the .410 as well.

It's kind of funny that you see the same argument in the handgun forums. "Which would you rather get shot with, a .22 or a 10mm?" The answer for me is neither! Odds are a hit with either will have me on the floor squealing like a teenage girl at a Justin Bieber concert.


Lots or people are completely happy to use a 9mm or .380 as a HD weapon. Which would you rather get shot with, one of those or a .410 load?
 
Exactly what I was getting at Tgreening.

As long as the shooter is up to snuff it really doesn't matter what caliber or gauge is used.
 
Using you argument that as long as the shooter is "up to snuff" the gauge doesn't matter, let me ask you why so many advocate extended magazine capacities for HD abd why some also wear a side saddle? Why not just rely on the good old single shot if one is conficent they will shoot with perfect precision under exigent circumstances? It is because the best shooter can be off the mark.

Next question. What poses the greater risk of collateral damage from , assuming the same velocity; 5 pieces of OOO from a .410 or double their equvalent weight in #4 Buck out of a 12 gauge?

Laslty, given the same loads as above, which is more likely to put an instant stop the threat if your hit is 8" to left or right of center at a distance of 10 yards?

it is well and good to train to be dead on accurate and to strive to put every piece of shot on target, but chit happens under extreme pressure. Plan for it. Ig a .410 is best for you, go for it. All I am saying is that it generally is not the best HD shotgun for the average person.
 
Okay.

Using your "Average" shooter comment.

What happens when the average shooter uses a 12 gauge and completely misses the targeted threat with it?
 
Hey Klawman....

Give this a try when you get the chance...

Take a paper plate and trace an old CD for a target (trace the center out as well because that will be your aiming point)

and make sure that you set it up to where the wind will catch it.

Load up some buckshot that your gun patterns well ('00' or '000') and set yourself at 10 or 15 yards. (say two rounds through a cylinder choke)

Try to get as close to the center with a breeze blowing as you can.

*Think of it as a friendly target exercise, trust me it's one hell of a challenge*
 
Laslty, given the same loads as above, which is more likely to put an instant stop the threat if your hit is 8" to left or right of center at a distance of 10 yards?
Click to expand...

Neither

8" off center will be a fringe or B Zone hit at best on the average man using any of the tight patterning loads. You might want to read this Boxotruth. The 20 yard test is quite revealing. If you take a garbage shot you will get garbage results.
 
It's really not a question of the 410 being "superior". Actually, it is more a question of the 410 being suitable for SD...and it certainly is.
For a while, I experimented with a Saiga 410. It was a fantastic gun. I felt quite well armed with it loaded with a five round mag of buck.
The only reason I sold it was the combined length of the Kalashnikov action and barrel, and the plastic stock...made for a weapon that was a little too long.
But, when I look at the new 410 loads available today, like the PDX, I wish I still had that Saiga to try them in.
 
What happens when the average shooter uses a 12 gauge and completely misses the targeted threat with it?
Click to expand...
I don't understand the notion that keeps popping up about missing with a 12 gauge or "a hit with x is better than a miss with y"

What logic indicates that a person is somehow more likely to miss with a 12 gauge than any other gun?
 
I give up. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Most of you still don't get the point. As for those that tried to answer the 8" off center question, the key that was missed is which is most likely. It would have been a better question if I had asked about a hit 6" off of center, but the same result. (Yes, if the BG is a bad guy the 8" off center at that distance could be a complete miss, Pfletch, but it is more likely to get more hits than the .410 and is therefore more likely to stop the threat although those hits are not very likely to hit center mass vitals.)
 
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@Idek

The thing I was trying to get at is that at home defense ranges the shot column is less likely to open up (and this is for all gauges using buckshot through a smooth bore barrel)

and that the shooter must really be on their game to connect with the target let alone the vital areas of said target.

A point that Klawman either didn't get or doesn't want to admit to.

But the pattern will open up if said pellets are shot through a rifled barrel (but will be useless for longer than HD engagements unless the buckshot is swapped out for slugs)
 
Now the .410 with '00'/'000' buck from a full choke .410 barrel will spread out more than the same load through a cylinder choke barrel (my reason for buying the spare 18.5 inch barrel for the Mossberg 50104).

The results shooting '000' buck through the factory 24-inch full choke barrel caused inconsistent patterns at 5-6 yards,I would use the same aiming point but would get a pattern going high or low.

Now that isn't to say that all buckshot will do the same,for example #4 buck due to it's smaller pellet size will have a tighter pattern that is more consistent with what one would expect to see with birdshot through a full choke (and because most .410's are sent from the factory wearing a full choked tube #4 buck would be the best round to use in them for a larger than normal pest removal situation)

The reason for the inconsistent patterns with larger shot size I think is due to the already restrictive nature of the .410 shotshell.

The full choke forces the shotcup and pellets to squeeze through thus causing pre-mature opening of the shot cup,which leads to inconsistent wide patterns.


You can see this in brass fetcher's youtube vid of the Winchester 5 pellet .410 load (as he did state that the barrel was a full choke at a distance of 10 feet)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1wMmx2fUVQ

Here is my vid showing the federal '000' pattern through a full choke at 15-20 feet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYaxYviKTmQ


Here are the results when fired at the same distance as shown in the above vid,only using the 18.5 inch cylinder choke barrel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVB-c0KXPrM&feature=plcp
 
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Pfletch, I know you are a smart guy and probably know a heck of lot more than me about hd or tactical shotguns, but you are way out of line with your suggestion that I don't get anything or don't want to admit it.

If you simply read the question, I ask which is
more likely to put an instant stop the threat if your hit is 8" to left or right of center at a distance of 10 yards?
Click to expand...

I wrote out a lengthy explanation of the odds of placing pellet in specific areas of the person, but decided not to post it. You probably could follow it with ease, but I would end up having to explain every little nuance to many mall ninjas (a category in which I do not include you and a few of the others ).
So I simplified greatly.

At 10 yards, which is a long shot for HD but that was the question, I expect a similar size pattern for a 12 or .410 short barrel open cyllinder. The .410 000 3" magnum has 5 pieces of shot. The 12 #4 3" has 41. Both are Remmi express.

With the pattern of each centered 8" to the left of center, I believe you are likely to get 29 hits with #4 and 12 misses. With the 5 pieces of 000 in the .410, you may only get 3 or 4 hits.

Notice my question asked about to the right or left of center. If you off to one side, you are likely to place much of the pattern over the heart and may put some pellets into the left ventricle and the apex, which likelihood increases if you have more pellets. The heart doesn't lay that deep and there is little or no need to penetrate more than a few inches. The other side is a different matter. Still, with 8 times as many bits of shot, the #4 is more likely to place more lead nearer to center mass.

Regardless, the focus of the question was which is most likely and not if either was likely to stop a BG. I submit the 12 loaded with #4 is the most likely.

I also asked about risks of collateral damage. No one addressed the issue since they know it is much greater from 000 that #4 due to the fact that the 000 given the same velocity much more likely to penetrate walls and even the BG and hit innocents.
 
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Pfletch, Your videos and post only support my postion that the .410 may be the right HD shotgun for some people, but the 12 is superior. The OP praises the use of 000 buck in the .410 and you amply demonstrated the problem with flyers.
 
@Klawman

That's why I have said that the '000' stuff is best for outside the home use and that #4 buck is better for inside the home use.

Which vid are you talking about?

The pepsi box used for a target?

or the second vid where I was using the 50455 in it's foctory config?

Also you didn't seem to be paying attention to what SHR970 had to say on the matter.
 
Pfletch83,
So apparently in your opinion 4 or 5 holes is the magic #. because in the case of the Judge/Governer 4 holes is better than 1 but for shotguns 12 holes is not better that 4 or 5.:confused:
 
We seem to have drifted a long way from the OP. The .410 shotgun is more than adequate for shooters who want a light shotgun that won't beat them to death with recoil. I see it in the same category as a .357Mag lever-action rifle. Are either longarm as powerful as a 12ga./.308Win longarm?....no. But they do the job adequately.

The military/LEO choices are a red herring. Just because the military tends to defend its "property" with grenades and .50BMG machine guns doesn't make them a good choice for civilian HD. Conversely, LEO's often resopnd to situations first with handguns....then with SWAT teams. Shotguns don't see much use anymore.

For an inexperienced shooter looking for a good HD/recreational shotgun, the .410 has a lot to offer. As they gain more experience and/or look toward more sporting uses (wingshooting, 3-Gun, trap), the 12ga becomes a better choice. Choose the right tool for the job....and for the user.
 
My wife, sons, and I all hunt with rifles during the deer firearms season. We are all proficient with rifle recoil.

That being said, my almost-14 year old daughter is home alone sometimes.
She is recoil-averse and doesn't hunt or really care about firearms at all.
She is the reason I keep #4 buckshot in a sidesaddle holster on our NEF Topper .410 single shot behind the bedroom door.

I've been able to instruct her on how to enter the bedroom, lock the door, and load the single-shot and hold on the door. If someone breaks in to the downstairs while she is home alone, she is to follow this procedure.

I feel confident in her ability to defend herself with the .410 in this situation.
9 .240 diameter pellets of Federal #4 buck @ 1100fps to the head/neck/chest area from 8 yards across our bedroom using the bed for a rest tends to mess up a home invaders day. :cool:
 
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So let's look at the original statements made in the OP.

The .410 shotgun is a great defensive tool,the gauge/caliber can be used by anyone that can shoulder a long arm. Mostly true. It is more than adequate for defensive use. Most anyone who can shoulder a long arm could use one.

The ammo situation is being cleared up due to the handguns that have arrived on the market. True. Before the 410 derringer can onto the scene your choices were bird shot and 1/5 oz slugs. Now we have real choices in buckshot and better slugs are available.

The .410 guns are light weight and have a low recoil. Mostly true. The real lightweights like the single shots have a fair amount of kick with a 3" shell. Yes you can game a 12 gauge into the same levels of recoil with 20 gauge payloads and low velocity but that's not the point.

Ammo is also lacking in the weight and bulk area,which allows for more shells to be carried for the same weight as larger gauge guns. True.

The payload is small but is still capable of putting down a two legged threat and is nothing to sneeze at. True The lowly 2 1/2" shell with 3 000Buck pellets is still putting out 210 grains of lead at 1200-1300 fps.; that is 41 Mag. territory energy wise spread over three wound tracks.

For those that are new to shotgunning I would recommend a .410,not only because of the low recoil,but because the limited amount of shot will force the shooter to practice more and in turn become a better shotgunner with the heavy hitters on down the line. False. You can't make someone practice. The higher (almost 3X) cost of shells in general will turn many people away from practicing more. With the 12 and 20 gauge you can get bird shot loads that have the same weight and velocity to match the buckshot loads substantially cheaper than buckshot. For defensive practice it really doesn't matter if you substitute bird for buck; you either hit the target or you do not hit the target. The indoor ranges that do allow shotguns do not let you use buckshot anyways; at least in my neck of the woods.
 
The world of buckshot ammunition continues to advance. So yes today's 3" .410 with five .35 caliber pellets treads closely on the heals of the 2.75" 12 bore loaded with just three more pellets in the load.

Beyond in house defensive use, all that remains is bringing high antimony buckshot pellets, a shot cup and buffer into the .410 picture to tighten the patterns up sufficiently for close range deer hunting.

Old ideas about shotgun performance will nonetheless die slowly.
 
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