The Smallbore Defensive Shotgun

So you really think that if you deliver a load of ten 000 Buck Shot pellets or a load of three in a .410 at a point centered 9 inches to the right of a BG's cener mass you are just as likely to stop them dead in their tracks assuming he is shot at a distance of 7 yards. I think not, but that roughly half your pellets are going to miss vitals and you may only get a single hit. You are likely to get three or perhaps 4 hits on vitals with the 12 gauge. I assume that both pattern over an area of about the same radius.
 
The following is a from a thread started by the owner of Beartooth Bullets entitled "Teeth for the .410 Bore" with 4 00 buckshot balls:
"This load. out of the .410 shotguns we own here, will produce a neat, square pattern that is about five inches square with the four buckshot when patterning at 35 yards! *Not bad for a little .410 2 1/2" shotshell. *This load I described punches out the bore at about 1220 fps from our shotguns. *More fire under the charge just blows the pattern apart in my experience.

Now, about on target performance! *This load is really amazing when all four of those 44 grian pills impact a 4"-5" area at once on something the size of a 70-90 pound feral dog! *Out to 45 yards (farthest tested), it is lights out! *No recovered buckshot (remember these are fairly hard), and boiler room hits create nearly instant incapacitation, even on adrenalized critters of this size."
http://www.shootersforum.com/shotgu...ell-reloading/2805-teeth-410-bore-shotun.html
 
Here is review from Cabelas for the Winchester Super X 3 pellet 000 with Saiga
"5 out of 5
Mooseeyes
Sonora, CA
Age:65 and over
Gender:Male
Would you recommend this product to a friend? Yes
Great load. . .and not just for "The Judge"!
July 2, 2011
I bought some of these in 3", to use and test in my wife's house gun. . .a Saiga semi-auto, Russian made on an AK action, using the 10 round mags. Out at the range, at 30 feet (what I figure to be the max. distance for inside the house defense), these are the "bomb"!
Very tight pattern. . .inside the size of a large orange! I am ordering another 100 rounds of the 3" 000 buck. The hole put into the paper at the range is the size of a .45, and they plum punch out the 1/4" press board target backing. These WILL get the job done!"
 
jm, I know you are more intelligent than this. Almost anything will do the job if delivered with precision. The problem is that in an emergency that may take place in the dark of night and with one full of adrenaling it isn't so easy to deliver a pricise shot and that is why the 12 or 20 gauge is a much more prudent tool than the .410 unless for some reason one is limited to its use.

What I have tried to explain is that given a less then precise shot, the odds of delivering a threat ending punch is more likely with the larger gauge. If you get half your .410's five pellets outside the vital area you may get 2 or three inside it, but with a 12 you have ten pellets (assuming Winchester Magnum Super X 3" 000 BS) and you are likely to get two more hits into vitals.
 
I remember hearing about an officer involved shooting that happened at around 15 feet inside a parking garage,the officer was using a department issued 12 gauge with 9-pellet '00 buck.

The officer unloaded every round he had in the shotgun,before going to his handgun,the whole time shots were being fired the BG was advancing on the officer,the perp then gave up when the officer drew his handgun.

All pellets hit their mark in the perp's upper body.

After all was said and done the officer admitted that he should have went for a head shot,the perp died on the way to the hospital.

So please oh wise one tell me again how the 12 is so much better than any other gauge.
 
@Theklawman

Also if you go back through this thread you will see that I mentioned the use of #4 buck in post #10 and backed up afore mentioned post with #18


Just admitt it,you hate the .410 because it's a .410 and spouting bs some how makes you feel better about yourself.

Also let it be known that I said the .410 was a great defensive tool,I never claimed it was the best defensive tool (Because the "best" is too subjective from person to person and to say that it's the best would in fact be a false claim)
 
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Klaw; why so defensive? I was agreeing with your point and provided additional information concerning a 12 gauge that further emphasizes your point. How does that translate into trying to further promote that one is superior to the other?

If I wanted to get into the more is always better argument I would recommend the 18 pellet 00 Buck 3 1/2" shells. Conversely if I wanted to get into the less is always better argument I would suggest a Judge firing 2 1/2" shells of #7 1/2. Both would be examples of cognitive dissonance on my part as both can be effective but neither choice is a good all around choice.

Ask yourself which load is most likely to do the job if delivered with the same degree of accuracy; the 12, 20, or the .410.
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Statistically there will always be those outliers that are the stuff of anecdotes and articles. At household distances a hit in the boiler room with any of the three will do the job.......statistically speaking.
 
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Speaking from experience, one 7 1/2 shotgun pellet from fifty yards away hitting me in the back of the leg, through Levi's, REALLY GOT MY ATTENTION!
This was on a quail hunt years ago down in Baja. I've also killed a coyote with one shot, with an ounce and a quarter of sixes at forty yards. all of this makes me respect any shotgun with any load. I think an ounce of #9's inside a house would stop anyone. And if it didn't the second shot at half the distance would for sure. #4 buck? I reserve that strictly for sea-going mammals that steal fish.
 
The fact is that law enforcement's overwhelming choice of shotguns is the 12 gauge.
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I am not taking the .410's side, but law enforcement's choice to use the 12 gauge is not a decision that is based on what is the best tool to use but what is simply available to the agency.
 
I'm sure this could...

anger some but I have been thinking about the 28 gauge defensive shotgun for awhile.

My thoughts are that the 28 gauge would be just as good a defender with the ammo to fit the job.

The only thing that would make it better is if the 28 gauge was offered in a 3-inch chamber so the pellet count can be bumped up.
 
Note to the op you seem awfully confrontational with people who make a point or may i say counter point to your opinion on this issue. Yes i do agree with klawman as he is very well respected here and quite knowledgeable.
the 12 GA. round is far superior and you can try to sell your opinion all you wish. If all i had was a .410 that is all i would use and i would wish for a 12 GA. I'm sure. I'm not a ballistic expert but what i do know is that when i was a child my grandfather handed me a .410 and said when i grow up i could use a 12 GA.
^^^^^^^^^^NOTE TO THE STAFF^^^^^^^^^^
i am surprised that the staff allowed this thread to continue as a argument.
The more i read the more i was disgusted by the argumentativeness.
This is why i don't frequent some of the other forums.
 
I remember hearing about an officer involved shooting that happened at around 15 feet inside a parking garage,the officer was using a department issued 12 gauge with 9-pellet '00 buck.

The officer unloaded every round he had in the shotgun,before going to his handgun,the whole time shots were being fired the BG was advancing on the officer,the perp then gave up when the officer drew his handgun.

All pellets hit their mark in the perp's upper body.

After all was said and done the officer admitted that he should have went for a head shot,the perp died on the way to the hospital.

So please oh wise one tell me again how the 12 is so much better than any other gauge.
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Please oh wise one you think he'd have been better off with a 410 and 1/2 the # of pellets. BTW this also answers JM's question.
Once again I ask, how is 800 to 900 ft lbs of 5 000 buckshot pellets not going to smoke an intruder.
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The only way a 410 is going to be any more effective is if you can actually shoot it faster. Something I figured out years ago in bowling pin shoots speed shooting shotguns is a big mans sport. you just can't cheat physics much.
 
law enforcement's choice to use the 12 gauge is not a decision that is based on what is the best tool to use but what is simply available to the agency.
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not sure where you live but i live in Dallas Texas where the Dallas police annual budget is a whopping 233 million dollars ( i just looked it up ) and there officer's provide there own shotguns according to several friends of mine who own and work in local gun shops around the area and they ALL BUY 12 GA. SHOTGUNS ...now again I'm no ballistic expert and i certainly do not have to defend myself or have a need to protect your lives on a daily basis but .............i think that if i were to purchase a weapon to protect myself i would use the advice of those who do that very thing!!!

I'm still scratching my head as to why this "discussion" is still up?
 
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