The NRA Response

I could be wrong but I think Mainah would prefer constructive ideas from the NRA instead of old, tired and worn out talking points that everyone was already rolling their eyes at in the 1970s.

I have to agree that I was and continue to be very disappointed in the way this has been handled. I've calmed down quite a bit but that dog and pony show they brought out on stage was embarrassing.

Right now, aside from being dissapointed I'm also mad that the NRA thinks it's ok to go after my other rights like the 1A while they seemingly only care about their empire. Honestly, I don't think it's even about the 2A with them any more cause if it was they wouldn't think of scarificing another right to protect the 2A.

Absolutely nothing from the Bill Of Rights should ever be augmented in order to preserve another. All those rights are idea we have spilled our blood over and tens of thousands of people died for.

No, what LaPierre said was completely wrong and in my opinion, and I'm saying this as a paying member of the NRA, he's only trying to protect the empires known as the NRA and the 2A is just a great talking point to keep the money flowing.

Mind you, this post is in NO WAY anti 2A. If anything it's starting to feel like it's moving towards anti-NRA.

TLDR Version: No right from the Bill of Rights is more important, or sacrificial for any other right.
 
support your only second amendment voice the NRA

I'm sorry but cutting up your NRA card at this point in time is a very foolish move unless you do want the second amendment to go away or be so weighed down that it is useless.

What other organization is going to give you a voice for pro second amendment rights. If you don't like the NRA response, then tell the NRA, don't quit on your only public voice. Cut up your card and you might as well be cutting off your tongue.

Don't fall into the trap. Anti second amendment people want you to attack the NRA for what happen. Are we surprised that after the election legal gun owner rights are under attack? We knew it would come sooner or later. When was the last time you saw or heard a reasonable compromise on gun rights by either side. It never happens. Unfortunately you have to pick a side. None of us ever wants these tragic events to happen, but there will always be people killing other people. How did the last ban work, oh it didn't did it. What kind of compromise do you want the NRA to make on your second amendment rights. For me I like them just the way they are.

I don't see why there can't be non lethal weapons by qualified people in every school or store if the people choose.

Support the NRA it is all we have. They want to divide and concur. Don't do it!!
Support our only voice. Please support our only voice. The NRA or the silence!
 
Dusty, 20 years ago I might have agreed with you that the NRA was our only voice but that isn't as true today as it once was.

With everyone having a blog, high speed Internet. The ability to mobilize via social networks, Twitter, Facebook and the like has changed the rules considerably.

Governments have been overthrown with these tools so to think that the NRA is our only option isn't as true as it once was.

I will support the NRA as long as they don't try to sell out my other rights. I'm not threatening to tear up my card but I really don't like what I've seen so far.

The NRA had better figure out what it really stands for and quickly. Do they stand for the 2A or do they stand for our membership fees.

I don't have all the answers but I know when something smells rotten and I REALLY hate it when someone tries to give away any of my rights in favor of their organization.
 
What right exactly is the NRA trying to trample? I must have missed it. Don't just say "1st Amendment", be specific.

I cut up my nra card after the conference yesterday.
That'll show 'em!
 
This starting to spin out of control. I understand folks are upset.

But how about we just chill out a bit. Wayne will be on Meet the Press tomorrow and let's see how he does. The NRA President - whomever - will be on the Face the Nation.

Some facts - the evidence that video games is a major source of causality for violence is not truly supported by the most current research. Putting God back in the schools - not our discussion point here.

Relax a bit, folks.
 
@zxcvbob Look back in the thread where I discuss the NRA deflecting towards Video Games and the Movie Business which are 1A issues. Also, those industries already regulate themselves which is more than can be said for the NRA and 2A folks. Just sayin....

I don't like the idea of throwing one amendment under the proverbial bus over another amendment.

@Glenn, sounds like a reasonable idea. Just wanted to mention that I'm not calling for a revolution against the NRA, just voicing my displeasure in how they have handled things thus far.

Having said all that, lets wait and see what happens on Meet The Press. Give everyone a chance to calm down a bit, myself included.
 
NO1der, the self regulation of the movie and videogame industries is farcical, cynical (since they know it is for show), and ineffectual.

The truth is, though, our societal issues are caused largely because parents have abdicated the control and guidance of their kids to the movie and videogame industries, to the schools, and to the state.

Because if parents were doing their job as parents, store and movie clerks would not be expected to keep kids from inappropriate things - that responsibility would begin and end with parents.
 
You'll get no argument from me about anything you said cause I agree with you.

Still, as farcical as those self regulations are it's that much more than what the NRA and 2A folks have. I should know, I'm one of them.

In any case, I'm not calling for an overthrow of the NRA I'm just upset and voicing my displeasure.

I'm going to do what Glenn suggests and wait to see what Wayne says on Meet The Press.
 
zxcvbob said:
"The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun..." was a horrible line...
It was a great line because it's true and everybody knows it, they are just in denial -- and it begs the question, Is stopping the bad guy the real objective?
I'm not so sure it was a "great" line, but it is true. However, you put your finder on the key isse with the word "denial," and none other than Lt. Colonel David Grossman happens to agree with you. Some while before sandy Hook, and before Aurora, he addressed a symposium of police officers in California and "denial" was the exact word he used. And he -- and you -- was correct. School (and mall, and ___) security is a joke because the people who ultimately have the responsibility and who make the decisions only pay lip service to "security," because they really believe that "it can't happen here."

Sandy Hook Elementary School had a security plan -- doors locked at 9:30, after that anyone who wants in has to be buzzed in. SO WHAT? If a stranger presses the doorbell and has six handguns and an AK-47 hidden under his coat -- whoever is inside is going to do what? OPEN THE DOOR. So Mr. Schoolshooter walks in, pulls out his blaster, and starts shooting. If there isn't someone inside who is armed and prepared to engage Mr. Schoolshooter, the buzzer system is WORSE than a joke, because it conveys a false sense of security. It's like gluing fake sprinkler heads to the ceiling.

But -- at Sandy Hook the doors were glass, or they had glass sidelights. So even if Adam Lanza wasn't buzzed in (and it appears that he was not), all he had to do was shoot out the glass, reach through the opening, and open the door. (It appears that's what he did.)

So the "security" plan was in reality about as "secure" as locking your house door at night and leaving the key on nail next to the outside doorknob.

Example: In 2005 I was hired as a consultant to review the plans for a large high school addition and alterations project. These were supposed to be the final construction plans -- the project had been in design for at least two or three years, so it was begun shortly after Columbine and security was purportedly a very high priority.

Really?

The front doors were (and still are) all glass. The answer to that was, at the time, that the security office just inside the front entrance was to be manned by an armed school resource officer. Not a great answer, but sort of what we're back to discussing today. Okay, they get a bye on that one. (Of course, since Federal funding for police in schools dried up several years ago the security desk is no longer manned by an armed police officer, and the front doors are still all glass, but let's keep moving.)

In the existing wings, the corridor walls were all concrete block and the classroom doors were solid wood. (They probably had narrow vision lights, but I don't recall.) The new wings, however, were planned to have glass sidelights next to the doorknob sides of all the classroom doors. I had been informed that the security protocol was to include a lockdown procedure, so I had to ask: What good is it going to do if you lock the doors and give the intruder a glass panel right next to the doorknob that he can shoot/smash and just open the door? The architect's response? "We like the glass. It provides a sense of openness to the classrooms."

In other words: DENIAL! "We aren't really concerned about security, we're just going through the motions because if we don't we'll be criticized. But we don't really have to worry about a shooter in OUR school."

It got worse. Does anyone know how classroom door locks work? There's a very legitimate concern that if the lock was like the one on the front door of your house, a teacher might step into the corridor and the kids could lock him/her out. So a classroom lock can ONLY be locked or unlocked with a key -- there's no button or thumbturn on the inside. Remember, the security plan for this school includes lock-down in case of an intruder.

Me: Do you ever have substitute teachers?

School: Of course.

Me: Do the substitutes get the key to the classroom where they'll be teaching?

School: Oh, no. The custodian opens the classroom for them.​

See where we're going with this?

Me: Do you have any teachers who "float"?

School: Oh, yes, we have several.

Me: Do they get a key to each room they'll be teaching in?

School: No, each teacher has the key to his or her home room.​

So this public high school had (and still has today) a security plan calling for locking down the classrooms, but they have NO PROVISION for giving a key to the classroom to a substitute teacher or to "floater" teachers who go from one classroom to another. This was just a few years after Columbine, they talked about Columbine and the need for security all the time ... but something as basic as giving teachers the key to the classroom had never occurred to them.

They weren't alone. I watched a video of an interview with a teacher's aide from Sandy Hook. She said when she and her teacher realized they were hearing gunshots and should lock the door, she looked at the teacher and the teacher said she didn't have a key to the door. Thankfully, a custodian came down the corridor and locked the doors, but what if the custodian hadn't been there, or had been shot ... or just plain hadn't dared to do what he did? IMHO, if there's any single person at Sandy Hook who deserves a medal, it's that unnamed custodian who was brave enough to be out in the corridor when everyone else was hiding, locking the classroom doors to try to protect the kids.

DENIAL! Sandy Hook had a security plan that was devised to stop honest people, and nothing more.

[/rant mode]
 
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My new phrase in all these discussions outside this forum is... "Can you outlaw evil?" I think the NRA needs to make this a talking point...
 
I read the transcript of the conference before I actually watched the news conference, and I was favorably impressed with it.

Later, I watched the actual news conference.

Nothing at all against LaPierre, but he really is not a great public speaker.
 
The truth is, though, our societal issues are caused largely because parents have abdicated the control and guidance of their kids to the movie and videogame industries, to the schools, and to the state.

+1000
 
Other than the blame of video games and violent media, I liked what he said. As far as the quote, about only a good guy with a gun stopping a bad guy with a gun, my wife is very much anti-gun. She copied and pasted that quote on a Facebook post in a positive way. It was the first time I heard her make a somewhat pro-gun comment (There is hope!). It went like this, "I HATE, HATE, HATE guns, but this is so true, 'The only person who can stop a bad guy with a gun is a...'"

I don't think it was an awful line to use, and it is true though I would replace only with "the best way to..." since some have been stopped by people without guns at great risk to their own lives.
 
Aquila Blanca ...Great story! It kinda' reminds me of watertight bulkheads on the Titanic that didn't go up to the main deck. If they insist on having glass, it must be bullet proof or they should be required to have a SUBSTANTIAL piece of metal grille work SECURELY fastened from the inside of any glass which if broken would permit a person breaking in from reaching whatever device is used to unlock the door.

I'm thinking that you might have to even consider any window which is reachable from the outside as well. Bulletproof in order to prevent a shooter from shooting, even blindly, into a classroom. If the classroom doors have glass or sidelights ... the above rules apply there to. Just speculating.

Hardened targets: First, all reasonable measures to keep an intruder from penetrating the target. Second, failing that, all reasonable measures to keep the intruder from entering any area other than ones which you do not care if he's in (like a hallway).

I think now, if a plan is made that a security inspector deems unsafe, for the plan to be accepted, the designers and those making the decision should be required to sign-off on it and be made responsible if a foreseen event is ignored and later occurs. If they were on the hook legally and monetarily ... I bet that the glass would have been the first thing to go!

In my home, you can try to break down my door, but you cannot break a sidelight and reach my lock.
 
I watched the press meeting this morning.
Overall, I was in agreement with the NRAs stance (no suprise there)
I also agree that Wayne is not a great speaker, but he did a good job.

I think they were a bit slow to react to the first protestor....maybe they should have posted a sign oustide that said "No banners or protests allowed during news conference." I'm sure it would have stopped them:rolleyes:
All kidding aside, I wish the NRA would have mentioned the incidents of rampage shootings that have been stopped or at least mitigated by an armed citizen. In particular the latest incident in Porltand

http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

I think the examples would have fitted the talking points and added weight to the ideas being put forth.
 
I don't have the answers. And I really doubt that anyone does.

Before we can even begin to formulate an answer (solution) we must effectively define the problem. Here is the problem, as I see it:

Mass murderers / terrorists tend to prey on large groups of defenseless people.... and seek recognition for what they have done

I see 4 factors in this equation:

- murderers / terrorists
- large groups
- defenseless
- recognition

Take any one of those four factors away and you have significantly changed things.
 
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Take out the video game and movie mumbo, it wasn't bad. Secure the schools, allow concealed carry everywhere else is the only thing I can think of. They can't legislate this away.

One issue I see is some schools are using 50, 60 and 100 year old buildings and portable buildings that make security difficult. Funny how half of the police force and paramedics are stationed at football games.
 
I really liked the NRA’s response, and In fact it convinced me to become a member (something I have been debating about for some time now).
The fact that Wayne accused the media members right in front of him for unfair reporting, showed me that the NRA understands the situation is dire enough to forego political correctness, which is something I feel they have failed at in the past. FYI I am already a member of Gun Owners of America, and in general I hate joining organizations. I truly feel however that wee need to pool our strength ane resources toward beating the ignorance in this country rather than stockpiling weapons right now.
Thousands of dollars of guns and ammo hidden in your closet will not save this country, making your voice and dollars heard will.
 
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