The NRA Response

[Alabama Shooter]

So let's funnel the shooters to bad high schools?

Is that supposed to be witty?

 

[shortwave]

Aguila Blanca --- Why?...Because an armed teacher, will give certain nefarious school kids, an incentive for assaulting and robbing a school teacher who is carrying a firearm.

Erno86,
I know your post was directed towards Aguila Blanca but I as well have a couple questions for you...

How would the kids know which teachers are concealed carrying and which are not? I carry everyday and if I passed you on the street, you would not be the wiser.
Too, there are some states in which 'open carry' is allowed and people OC in public on a regular basis. I'm sure these same people who OC have done so in the malls, theatres etc. around some of these nefarious kids you speak of. Can you cite any incidents in which one of these OC people have been jumped on because they were carrying?

Otherwise...You've heard of suicide by cop --- No doubt --- You'll be hearing of suicide by teacher, in the distant future, if we allow teacher's to carry firearm's in our public school's.

I've attended some "rough" school's during my youth...so I KNOW what certain school atmospheres are like.
Today 09:26 AM

I can take you to some very rough inner city schools that have had armed RO's for 40+ years in which there has never been an incident such as suicide by RO with a student. There has been some form of armed security(uniformed and plain clothes) at most Friday night High School football games as well as other school events as far back as I remember.
Can you cite any 'suicide by armed security' by students at any of these events?

One last thing...having had the opportunity to have been involved with some rough schools and living in some rough areas myself, I will say that there are people that live inner city as well as school staff that have been literally screaming for many years about getting better security in our schools for daily criminal activities, up to and including innocent school kids getting killed. But for years, their cries have fallen on deaf ears.
In a nutshell, IMO, daily criminal activity in schools and the security to stop it has been a topic for many years that has been addressed with a 'band aid' mentality and should have been addressed with a 'suture' mentality. If it had been, maybe there would have been more children's lives saved over the years.

It's a true shame that it took something like Sandy Hook to get our nations attention.

 

[Chaz88]

If a teacher qualifies for a permit or license in his or her state, then they should be allowed to carry in school.

Just a few comments about vetting teachers for CC. The teachers, janitors, and everyone else that works in a school has already had background checks that are equal to or exceed those for most CC permits. I am not even teaching unsupervised yet and have already had background checks done that equal the one I had for CC. Before I am fully licensed and allowed to teach alone I will have had several more extensive checks done. From what I have been told they will rival those I went through for my military security clearances. By the way my rather expensive military investigation was free. Teachers have to pay for their background checks. That brings up another point, if you want to weed out some of the slacker teachers make the pay competitive with other professional occupations and better people will push them out.

My point being that everyone working in our schools has already been scrutinized more than the average CC permit holder.

 

[Erno86]

shortwave --- I may not detect your concealed weapon carry as a passerby on the street --- but I'm assuming --- that student's would get wise to teachers, as to who and who is not carrying firearms in the public or private classrooms of our schools in the United States.

As of now...I've haven't found any instances of suicide by teacher, or teacher or armed guard getting shot by own weapon in school --- but if you haven't already --- check out the FBI's website, and do a search on: Police shot by there own weapon...which you'll find plenty of instance's.

I'm just playing the percentages, on the proposal of armed teachers in school's --- and the percentages should validate my opinion, in relation to police law enforcement crime statistics --- that such instances that I have previously mentioned...will happen if armed teachers {barring elementary schools} are allowed in public or private classrooms.

 

[No1der]

Guys, look. I made my case with personal anecdotes that I have PERSONALLY witnessed. I've seen some incredibly crazy behavior from several teachers I've had through my school days.

Background checks are great and all but I can 100% honestly, cross my heart, promise you that I am THRILLED that the two teachers of mine who went psycho-nuclear in front of my classes, didn't have a firearm.

I'm NOT saying I don't want armed teachers or security or whatever, I think it's actually a GOOD IDEA.

My issue is with my own experience with a psycho English teacher I had in 10th grade and a scary crazy Band teacher who was threatening physical violence, who was throwing chairs and berating some high-school Junior in front of our who class.

I already mentioned that one kid I knew ended up with a bad bruise on his leg from a school chair, that was thrown by the Band teacher, bouncing off the wall and striking him.

On the flip side I've also had teachers I thought the world of and wouldn't have an issue if they were armed.

My band teacher armed is the type of thing that, for me, nightmares are made of. I dreaded going to his class because it was constant drama, obscenities and even indirect violence in the form of thrown furniture.

I'll be glad to share their names if you guys want to look them up. Who knows, maybe the eventually got fired, though I kinda doubt that.

I've made my argument, I've defended it to the best of my ability and you either agree that the two teachers (as examples) should not be armed in a school or you don't.

I'll monitor this thread and contribute as best I can but I've gone to the point of giving real life examples from my own experiences in a well to do high school and there's really not much more I can say about that.

It was frighting then to have them go psycho-crazy in class and it could have been downright traumatizing for life if those teachers were armed.

Someone mentioned "Suicide by teacher" and that is also not beyond the realm of possibility but I haven't any personal knowledge of that so I can't speak to it though I do agree that there is potential for that to happen in some schools.

No1der ~ Out...

 

[Stevie-Ray]

Teachers with firearms isn't the answer. Reason being that we're not talking about trained security who are taught how to respond to an emergency of such magnitude. We're talking about teachers, aka amateurs or enthusiasts who practice target shooting maybe but are not trained by any governing body about proper firearm use and handling in a school environment.

I have to disagree. What reason do law-abiding carriers generally have for carry. To protect themselves. Problems arise in PFZs because you can't even protect yourself. Lift PFZ restrictions and teachers that wish to carry will do so. During a mass shooting the criminal will likely opt to shoot the adults first as these are most likely to resist. The teacher can protect him/herself legally and if said criminal is stopped in the process, then children are saved by extension.

 

[wayneinFL]

What reason do law-abiding carriers generally have for carry. To protect themselves.

Why can't they protect others? It happens all the time.

I've made my argument, I've defended it to the best of my ability and you either agree that the two teachers (as examples) should not be armed in a school or you don't

I agree that those teachers should not be armed in a school. They shouldn't be in a school at all.

 

[Webleymkv]

Guys, look. I made my case with personal anecdotes that I have PERSONALLY witnessed. I've seen some incredibly crazy behavior from several teachers I've had through my school days.

Background checks are great and all but I can 100% honestly, cross my heart, promise you that I am THRILLED that the two teachers of mine who went psycho-nuclear in front of my classes, didn't have a firearm.

Becoming physically violent in the manner you describe is inexcusable regardless of whether they were armed or not. Rather than punish all teachers for the actions of a few "psycho-nuclear" ones, would it not make more sense to simply get rid of the "psycho-nuclear" teachers all together? Seriously, a band teacher throwing chairs at students needs to have his employment terminated and should probably face criminal charges or at least a civil suit to strip him of his teaching credentials as he has no business around children regardless of whether he's armed or not.

You continue, however, to talk around my question. Please explain why you don't think it's OK for the "psycho-nuclear" band teacher to have a gun in school, but its alright for him to have a gun in a shopping mall. I, personally, don't think that such as person has any business with a firearm anywhere as he's clearly unstable.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

The state, through their CCW process, has done that already. Why should the school have to do it again?

On a practical level, to satisfy USC 18-922(q)(2) ..... and to make it more palatable to a state legislature.

But 18USC922(q)(2) is satisfied by the CCW permit process of most states.

(2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to
possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual
knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a
firearm -
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is -
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is
on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school
in the school zone;

 

[Aguila Blanca]

If there was an easy answer, it would have probably started after Columbine.

There was an answer after Columbine: The Federal .gov provided millions of dollars to the states to pay for putting armed police officers in schools. Then the economy tanked, the Federal .gov stopped providing funding for those cops in schools, and the state and local governments weren't willing to pick up the slack. So ... no more cops in probably the majority of public schools around the country.

I spoke with my town's chief administrator just yesterday. After Sandy Hook, the school superintendents for the high school system and the elementary school system met with the chief of police and town officials and they decided, at least for the duration of this school year, to assign one officer exclusively to the high school and one officer exclusively to the elementary school. Next school year will be next fiscal year, so it remains to be seen what the longer-term response will be.

We used to have these officers in the schools a few years ago ... before the Federal money dried up.

Ideally I would like them to take a short course that instructs armed school personnel about just the difference in using a gun for self defense and using a gun for the defense of a classroom full of kids and how different the two can be.

Defending a classroom is NO different from defending your family at home. Almost all experts advise us NOT to attempt to "clear" our home if we hear things going bump in the night. We are advised to assemble the family in a "safe" room, and use whatever self defense weapon we have to defend the doorway into that room.

How is a classroom any different? Get the kids into the most secure corner available in the classroom, teacher hunkers down behind whatever cover or concealment is available, points gun at door, and shoots at anyone attempting to force entry.

This is NOT rocket science, people. We are not (at least, I am not) expecting teachers to act as a dedicated school SWAT team and go out on patrols to interdict assailants. The role of the armed teacher is to defend his or her classroom, nothing more.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

About funneling to high school, I was being sarcastic to those who want to deny teachers the right to defend themselves.

Putting on my research hat - you make yourself look like not a rational player if you base a nation wide decision on the grounds of two people.

That is called a vivid instance which leads folks to widely overestimate the probability of an event. It then causes what is called an availability cascade leading to public panic.

That is a common trick used by politicians to stampede the public.

The crime and accident rate of current CCW types is an order of magnitude lower than that of the general public.

I suggest folks worried about such home school their kids and have everything delivered from Internet orders. Watch movies at home only.
Don't go to restaurants - get take out. Don't go to religious services as nuts might go there.

The point being the objection to teacher carry based on two teachers is simply not a standard that anyone who knows anything about research or decision making would abide by.

References - go read the work of Kahneman and Tversky - Noble prize winner.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

The point being the objection to teacher carry based on two teachers is simply not a standard that anyone who knows anything about research or decision making would abide by.

In other words: "The plural of anecdote is not data."

Two isolated incidents to not make a data set ... or even establish a trend.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Is an photo an anecdote?

Look at these crazy teachers in Utah:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/conve...39d-d54cc6e49b63_gallery.html?hpid=z7#photo=4

http://www.washingtonpost.com/conve...39d-d54cc6e49b63_gallery.html?hpid=z7#photo=2

The staff has discussed this thread and we are worried that it is focused on responses to one person's negative view of the NRA and arming teachers. Let us move the discussion away from that particular debate - the points are made. Do we have more to say about the NRA as compared to Mrs. Crumpet being psycho?

This is a hint.

 

[shortwave]

Do we have more to say about the NRA as compared to Mrs. Crumpet being psycho?

Well, from the looks of those pics. and the wonderful response from Ohio teachers concerning the Buckeye Firearms Assoc. offer to teach a CC SD course to 24 qualified teachers free of charge, I'd say there may be more of an interest by teachers to carry then what we may realize.

Guess it stands to reason that these teachers are at least smart enough to realize:
A: only a fool lives in the fantasy that stricter gun laws are not the answer and will not eliminate guns from the hands of criminals with twisted minds.

B: our 'no gun zone' schools have become the targets of deranged psychopaths hell bent on killing defenseless people.

C: our current so-called school 'lock down' safety policies are miserable lacking

D: that the teachers themselves are interested in becoming part of the solution to the problem....and I for one,Thank Them Very Much for that.

E: and not only do they(teachers) want to protect the students they teach but just like every cop out there on a beat, those teachers want a fighting chance to go home to their own families every night.

Doesn't sound too crazy to me.

 

[L2R]

I like it

If it were me, I would want some extra training in crisis management as well as some training for situational awareness. Frankly, my 1st vote would be a maintenance person, grounds keeper or janitor. They would be more likely to see something coming before the doors were breached. But more the better. Were I a teacher, I would certainly want this opportunity.

Still, I like the idea of anyone already on the school payroll regardless of occupation becoming a first line of defense.

As stated before, there was a plan (funded by Federal gov't) that came to an end due to lack of funds again proving that sustaining an activity is harder than starting one.

I think the NRA offered a solid offering to train for free.
I hope these in Ohio take up the offer, become the model for others to follow-and quickly.
This is something that can grow, improve and be sustainable.





That said,

 

[seeker_two]

I'll monitor this thread and contribute as best I can but I've gone to the point of giving real life examples from my own experiences in a well to do high school and there's really not much more I can say about that.

I'll do one better. I've had to help restrain a violent, mentally-ill 20-y.o. student who attacked our school resource officer and tried to take his sidearm from him. I was fortunate enough to get there soon enough and restrain the student (adrenaline is a good thing in a fight), but I wonder how the situation would have been different had I been a few seconds later. One thing I am sure of....this student would not have hesitated to shoot me, the resource officer, and anyone else he could have gotten to. And, considering that the resource officer was the only one on campus with a gun, he wouldn't have faced much resistance. In this case, I wouldn't have minded one bit if one of my colleagues (principal, teacher, etc.) with a CCW or an available carbine had shot this student before he killed any of those aforementioned colleagues.

So, my view of the situation is slightly different....

 

[dab102999]

I have tried to read all the post but frankly got lost with some of the responces. So my question is are there any " studys" of teachers carrying in Utah and if there were any increase of violance towards teachers? Is there a way to find out how many different school systems in Utah allow/have carry precense in there school?

 

[Webleymkv]

I don't know that that man had any business with a firearm anywhere. I gotta tell you; people, including the adults who worked at my school, walked on eggshells around him.

Having said all that I respect his 2A right, if he's still alive. If a man has not acquired a felony or somehow otherwise made himself unacceptable by legal definition then there isn't much I can say about whether he carries a gun or not.

Glenn has pretty clearly told us that discussion of your "psycho nuclear" band teacher is moving the thread off topic. If you would like to continue discussing it, I'd be happy to do so but I think that PM would be the better venue.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

This vein is off-limits, as noted.

The defenders of reason have made the points. Follow my suggestion.

Glenn

 

[Stevie-Ray]

Why can't they protect others? It happens all the time.

Are you serious? Whom here said they can't?

But, I don't know of a single person that was asked why they got a CPL that answered "to protect others."