The NRA Response
- Thread starter Romeo 33 Delta
- Start date
One of my high-school janitors was one of the smartest people I'd met. I'd have trusted him to go armed.
From a strategic standpoint, how many people notice janitors? I've never heard of them being targeted, and that could be a strategic advantage.
Additionally, janitors are often present outside of normal hours, and they can be adept at noticing things others don't.
I honestly don't know the answer to that question. I'd be satisfied if they had had a CCP for, I originally said a year, 6-8 months. This way if they are irresponsible with their gun and shoot themselves or a family member we'll at least know not to let that teacher carry on school grounds.
That's not really a very good litmus test but it's something.
Ideally I would like them to take a short course that instructs armed school personnel about just the difference in using a gun for self defense and using a gun for the defense of a classroom full of kids and how different the two can be.
I'd probably also like to see something like a fire-drill held once a month so that the kids know what to do to stay out of the line of fire if a situation were to present itself where their teacher would need to defend them with deadly force.
I don't want to make life miserable for a teacher who wants to protect kids in school but I'd like him/her/them to have more than just the bare minimum for a CCP.
Like I said before, a school bus driver needs more than just a regular drivers license, at least where I live. So I don't see why a teacher, who wants to take on the role of protector & will be responsible for defending a class full of kids (of whatever age) can't have more than the bare minimum.
If a teacher wants to leave the gun in the car and CC for self defense then that's one thing. Having a gun in the school introduces a whole bunch of variables that were not considered or taught in the basic class for a permit.
For this reason drawing a comparison between a bus driver and an armed teacher both having to have to live up to higher standards than someone who drives their own car or carries a gun for their own self defense is not a non-sequitur. As has been suggested previously in this thread.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Of course. A security guard or a police office would be wearing a uniform. That makes it okay.WaybeinFL said:
Aguila Blanca
Staff
And this would be a bad thing ... why?Erno86 said:
Aguila Blanca
Staff
How closely have you followed news of the sandy Hook massacre?No1der said:
I watched a video interview with one of the classroom teacher's aides. She said that, when she and her teacher realized there was a shooter on the loose and that they should lock the door, the teacher DIDN'T HAVE THE KEY. (How's THAT for a security plan?) A custodian (i.e. janitor) came along and locked the doors in their corridor, then stood outside the classrooms in the corridor.
I don't know if his name was Jose, but if that man was brave enough to do that, in my book he sure deserves the right to carry a gun to defend himself and the students.
What have you got against custodians? The custodian at my grammar school was also my school bus driver and the chief of the fire department.
So someone could apply for the license, wait a year, buy a gun, and carry in a school? Or get a license, put the gun in a drawer, and wait a year? I don't see what you think it would accomplish.
Okay, how about a mandatory course for people who carry in a mall? And another for people who carry in a movie theater? And another for people who carry in a grocery store? Do you see where the anti's could go with this? If people who are pro-carry are scared of someone carrying in a room of 20-30 people, why wouldn't they call for even tighter restrictions on much more crowded areas?
Crisis training should happen anyway, whether we have the sense to arm adults in schools or not.
All bus drivers need more than a regular driver's license where I live. Do you feel all CCW licensees should be required to more than that?
If you're not taught not to shoot good guys during a CCW class, I'd like to know where you took the class, especially if it took two days. I've been in courses that lasted a few hours, and gotten more than that. As for variables, hell, your instructor can't predict all the variables in any other situation you might encounter.
Someone who carries for "self defense" can still carry with hundreds of other people within range. The only difference between a school and any other similarly populated venue is geography.
@wayneinFL
Someone who wishes to carry outside of a school can do so with the current training requirements. I don't have a problem with folks carrying for self defense.
You agree with me that emergency drills should be done no matter what.
There are, I'm sure, plenty to teachers who have had a CCP for quite some time but were not allowed to carry in school. Allowing them to carry based on the fact they haven't had an accidental shooting is an OK step.
However the time limit thing I mentioned was just of the top of my head and not something I'm committed to. I was asked about some ideas to propose and that one was just something off the top of my head.
I don't have all the answers and I'm answering discussing as I go along so you can't pin everything I mention in passing as something that I've stated as an absolute because that isn't the case. I even responded that the time limit thing is not a great idea but that it was "Something."
The only thing I care about is that schools know which teachers are armed and that they are acceptable in the sense that they aren't going to make bone-headed moves like unholstering a weapon to make a point while teaching about the civil war or something. Or that they don't take a gun out of their pocket, when they arrive to work, and put it down on their desk while putting their coat away in the closet.
I'm sorry, teachers not all teachers are created equal and some of them are downright irresponsible. I should know, I had many of them as teachers during my school career.
For example, I've had a teacher go full blown psycho when she had an emotional breakdown, in front of a class full of kids (myself being one of those kids) with tears flowing while screaming obscenities in an incoherent manner.
I know sure as sugar that I am very happy she didn't have a gun on her cause who knows what she would have done. A suicide in front of a bunch of 9th graders isn't exactly something that kids should have to be exposed to.
I had a band teacher who went psycho on some kid he sent out to Dunkin Donuts and the kid bought the wrong donuts. He was screaming at this kid, throwing furniture as well as obscenities. One kid in my band class ended up with a very large bruise on his leg where a chair that was thrown struck him.
I don't even know the amount of times my band teacher threw the term "Mother Effer" around while berating this poor kid in front of the rest of us.
Also, that teacher didn't get fired or even reprimanded. Yeah, he's another teacher I'm THRILLED didn't have a firearm on him.
I'm sorry, you're trying to make some "Constitutional point" and I'm telling you about real life in practice.
I hate to break it to you but there are lots of questionable teachers in our public schools and the last thing I want is for the crazy ones to be armed.
Some sort of screening process has to be in place or something is going to go very very very bad sooner rather than later.
I am happy for you that you didn't have any lunatics for educators but not all of us are so lucky to live in the type of paradise you seem to have been brought up in.
I'm not trying to offend you, I'm trying to explain the realities that some of us have witnessed in school while growing up.
If you can make a justification for arming the teachers I mentioned in this post I'd really really really love to hear it.
The fact is that not all teachers should be allowed to carry guns in school and a screening process or extra education is an absolute necessity.
Someone who wishes to carry outside of a school can do so with the current training requirements. I don't have a problem with folks carrying for self defense.
You agree with me that emergency drills should be done no matter what.
There are, I'm sure, plenty to teachers who have had a CCP for quite some time but were not allowed to carry in school. Allowing them to carry based on the fact they haven't had an accidental shooting is an OK step.
However the time limit thing I mentioned was just of the top of my head and not something I'm committed to. I was asked about some ideas to propose and that one was just something off the top of my head.
I don't have all the answers and I'm answering discussing as I go along so you can't pin everything I mention in passing as something that I've stated as an absolute because that isn't the case. I even responded that the time limit thing is not a great idea but that it was "Something."
The only thing I care about is that schools know which teachers are armed and that they are acceptable in the sense that they aren't going to make bone-headed moves like unholstering a weapon to make a point while teaching about the civil war or something. Or that they don't take a gun out of their pocket, when they arrive to work, and put it down on their desk while putting their coat away in the closet.
I'm sorry, teachers not all teachers are created equal and some of them are downright irresponsible. I should know, I had many of them as teachers during my school career.
For example, I've had a teacher go full blown psycho when she had an emotional breakdown, in front of a class full of kids (myself being one of those kids) with tears flowing while screaming obscenities in an incoherent manner.
I know sure as sugar that I am very happy she didn't have a gun on her cause who knows what she would have done. A suicide in front of a bunch of 9th graders isn't exactly something that kids should have to be exposed to.
I had a band teacher who went psycho on some kid he sent out to Dunkin Donuts and the kid bought the wrong donuts. He was screaming at this kid, throwing furniture as well as obscenities. One kid in my band class ended up with a very large bruise on his leg where a chair that was thrown struck him.
I don't even know the amount of times my band teacher threw the term "Mother Effer" around while berating this poor kid in front of the rest of us.
Also, that teacher didn't get fired or even reprimanded. Yeah, he's another teacher I'm THRILLED didn't have a firearm on him.
I'm sorry, you're trying to make some "Constitutional point" and I'm telling you about real life in practice.
I hate to break it to you but there are lots of questionable teachers in our public schools and the last thing I want is for the crazy ones to be armed.
Some sort of screening process has to be in place or something is going to go very very very bad sooner rather than later.
I am happy for you that you didn't have any lunatics for educators but not all of us are so lucky to live in the type of paradise you seem to have been brought up in.
I'm not trying to offend you, I'm trying to explain the realities that some of us have witnessed in school while growing up.
If you can make a justification for arming the teachers I mentioned in this post I'd really really really love to hear it.
The fact is that not all teachers should be allowed to carry guns in school and a screening process or extra education is an absolute necessity.
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No1der said:
So you think allowing teachers to CCW in school, as things currently stand now, could lead to tragedy?
Well, if there are so many unstable teachers, as you claim, who might snap and shoot up the classroom, what's been stopping them? I can't find where a teacher has shot a school up. Are you telling us that a teacher, of all people, can't get a firearm into a school right now? Have the no firearms allowed signs been stopping all these unstable, ready to snap teachers thus far?
If a teacher wanted to bring a handgun to school, they could do it anytime they wanted to if there goal was to harm people. They don't need a CCW permit, nor a change in rules to do it either.
I say take selected volunteers, and have them trained in the same manner and by the same people the state police uses. Then require them to take recurrent training, and to practice shooting and dealing with various scenarios.
I say take selected volunteers, and have them trained in the same manner and by the same people the state police uses. Then require them to take recurrent training, and to practice shooting and dealing with various scenarios.
seeker_two
New member
No1der: Hate to tell you this, but no law or regulation would have prevented any of your "psycho" teachers from bringing a gun into your classroom then....just as they didn't prevent the Newtown murderer from doing so. All those laws & regs did was prevent those who chose to be law-abiding from effectively defending themselves and their students. And I'm pretty disturbed that you are OK with maintaining that status quo....
Maybe you can develop a training program for teachers that can help them utilize their staplers, erasers, pencils, etc. to more effectively defend their classrooms from armed murderers......
Maybe you can develop a training program for teachers that can help them utilize their staplers, erasers, pencils, etc. to more effectively defend their classrooms from armed murderers......
No1der, you are on the right track
To all,
I have read everyone's posts with great interest.
Everyone has made good point for or against a specific arguement.
But it appears that no matter how No1der explains or comments, it brings on another wave of accusations which he defends and so goes the cycle.
No1der, you claimed to be thinking out loud and grasping for answers. You even stated that you did not have the answers but it appears to me you have concerns. For that I commend you.
WE need to brainstorm and walk thru the what if's.
This is a great process to weed out bad ideas and maybe even come up with some good ones so long as it doesn't get personal.
If there was an easy answer, it would have probably started after Columbine.
For the rest of you out there (to many to name) I commend you too for your passion on the subject. Realize that at the end of the day, we all want the same thing-keep our kids safe. I am grateful that a group can at least agree on that-something our politicians seemingly cannot do.
Sorry for the Rant. I wanted to give No1der props for having the energy to keep replying back so many times. Good ideas or bad, it keeps people thinking and that is what is important now.
Now back to the topic, the NRA response.
So let's say a good idea comes out of this posting. How does it get noticed? Would a politician actually read or here an idea? How about our own NRA folks-do they have ears or are they too big as well?
I can only hope that at a local level, someone, somewhere is in a position to do something. Hope they make good decisons and out of it becomes a model for others to follow.
Maybe the janitor has the answer so I will go ahead and say it, "what would Jesus do"?
To all,
I have read everyone's posts with great interest.
Everyone has made good point for or against a specific arguement.
But it appears that no matter how No1der explains or comments, it brings on another wave of accusations which he defends and so goes the cycle.
No1der, you claimed to be thinking out loud and grasping for answers. You even stated that you did not have the answers but it appears to me you have concerns. For that I commend you.
WE need to brainstorm and walk thru the what if's.
This is a great process to weed out bad ideas and maybe even come up with some good ones so long as it doesn't get personal.
If there was an easy answer, it would have probably started after Columbine.
For the rest of you out there (to many to name) I commend you too for your passion on the subject. Realize that at the end of the day, we all want the same thing-keep our kids safe. I am grateful that a group can at least agree on that-something our politicians seemingly cannot do.
Sorry for the Rant. I wanted to give No1der props for having the energy to keep replying back so many times. Good ideas or bad, it keeps people thinking and that is what is important now.
Now back to the topic, the NRA response.
So let's say a good idea comes out of this posting. How does it get noticed? Would a politician actually read or here an idea? How about our own NRA folks-do they have ears or are they too big as well?
I can only hope that at a local level, someone, somewhere is in a position to do something. Hope they make good decisons and out of it becomes a model for others to follow.
Maybe the janitor has the answer so I will go ahead and say it, "what would Jesus do"?
So what guarantee is there that any irresponsibility will manifest in 6-8 months, or any arbitrary amount of time for that matter? How and why is the current licensing process, which includes a background check in all states which offer licenses, inadequate at weeding out irresponsible people? If a person is irresponsible with a gun, they're likely irresponsible with other aspects of their life too and a background check will likely show that. Likewise, why should a teacher need to prove themselves responsible to a greater degree than anyone else who has a CCL? Do you think that teachers are more likely to act irresponsibly with a gun that the public at large?
Yet again, why is a special course needed for schools, but the "state minimum" is deemed adequate for shopping malls, movie theaters, amusment parks, and other crowded places which would present the same complications and difficulties of a school? What, exactly, do you think should be taught in the special class for teachers?
OK, that's not a bad idea and it wouldn't be all that hard to do. Many schools already practice "lockdown drills" for active shooters, so I don't think it would be difficult to incorporate armed teachers into the drills that are already being practiced.
Again, non-seguitur because the "bare minimum" requirements for a driver's license and a CCL are two very different things in most places. Unless the requirements to be a school bus driver are substantially more stringent than those to carry a gun, and in most places they aren't, then the driver's license analogy is invalid and irrelevant.
Leaving a gun in the car introduces problems of its own including a greater possibility of theft. A gun concealed on a teacher's person is much more secure than one left unattended in a vehicle. With all the worry over students getting ahold of the teachers' guns, I would think this would be obvious.
Yes, it is. For one thing, as I've mentioned before, the "enhanced" requirements to drive a school bus aren't significantly more stringent than the "state minimum" requirements to carry a gun. Likewise, a large part of the reason that there are more stringent requirements to drive a school bus than a passenger car is because school buses are larger, operate differently, and are generally more difficult to drive than a passenger car regardless of how many passengers they carry. Driving and carrying a gun are very, very different things and thus the regulations for one should not be used to model the regulations for the other.
So how is carrying a gun in a crowded public place other than a school so much less risky that it should require less stringent training?
There are lots of irresponsible people period and I don't want any of them carrying a gun regardless of what their chosen profession is. This is the reason that licensing processes are in place: to screen out the irresponsible people. The proper response to the "psycho" teachers you gave examples of is not to punish all teachers with burdensome regulations or outright bans on carry, but rather to simply get the "psycho" teachers the heck away from our children. You're really starting to recycle some of the tired old arguments that the anti's use against carry in general. We all heard about how unstable people were going to have wild west shootouts over parking spaces and turn our streets into rivers of blood, but it never happened.
The fact is that there is no empirical evidence that being a teacher puts someone at higher risk of being irresponsible with a gun that it does anyone else nor is there any reason to believe that a teacher using a gun in a classroom is more dangerous that using a gun in any other crowded public place. Because of this, I see no reason to believe that screening and training which is sufficient for people carrying guns in shopping malls, movie theaters, and amusement parks would not also be sufficient for teachers in schools.
Perhaps you'll understand my point better if I post its inverse: If someone cannot be trusted to carry a gun in a school, how could we trust them to carry a gun in any other crowded place?
Aguila Blanca --- Why?...Because an armed teacher, will give certain nefarious school kids, an incentive for assaulting and robbing a school teacher who is carrying a firearm. Otherwise...You've heard of suicide by cop --- No doubt --- You'll be hearing of suicide by teacher, in the distant future, if we allow teacher's to carry firearm's in our public school's.
I've attended some "rough" school's during my youth...so I KNOW what certain school atmospheres are like.
I've attended some "rough" school's during my youth...so I KNOW what certain school atmospheres are like.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
While there are tough schools - I don't think elementary schools or universities will have this risk.
So let's funnel the shooters to bad high schools?
So let's funnel the shooters to bad high schools?
one template for all?
I don't see one idea fitting every school in the country.
Maybe the janitor is the best selection in one place and a principal the next.
We have resource officers in our high schools now in N.C. that are sworn officers.
Maybe some schools need a police officer.
I think the school districts should be challenged to find their 'best' idea but have one.
After the Conn. disaster, who would not be willing to give a little more to provide security for your kids by whatever they decide.
I don't see one idea fitting every school in the country.
Maybe the janitor is the best selection in one place and a principal the next.
We have resource officers in our high schools now in N.C. that are sworn officers.
Maybe some schools need a police officer.
I think the school districts should be challenged to find their 'best' idea but have one.
After the Conn. disaster, who would not be willing to give a little more to provide security for your kids by whatever they decide.
If you can make a justification for employing the teachers I mentioned in this post I'd really really really love to hear it.
I'm sorry, but telling a teacher who throws chairs at students that he con come and teach my elementary school aged children as long as he doesn't carry a gun legally- that just doesn't cut it. It's like telling me that someone who commits an aggravated assault is safe living next door to me on probation as long as he has purchase his guns illegally. It's not a solution.
As for the rest of it... It's the same argument I hear from the anti's all the time. My coworker is crazy, so you shouldn't be allowed to carry at work. My neighbor is crazy, so people in my neighborhood shouldn't be allowed to carry. People shouldn't be able to carry guns at a mall, because some people are crazy and shoot up malls. It's all horsecrap. The statistics bear out the fact that people with carry permits are not breaking the law more often than the rest of the public- they're committing far fewer crimes.