The NRA Response
- Thread starter Romeo 33 Delta
- Start date
I'm not saying that existing laws would have stopped Sandy Hook shooting at all. I don't care how many laws would get passed it still wouldn't stop shootings like that one.
My point wasn't about stopping the Sandy Hook shooting because up until he killed his mother, there weren't any crimes committed.
My point was that we don't need new laws but rather that we need to enforce the laws that already exist.
For example, if a guy walks into a gun shop and attempts to buy a gun but the background check returns information that this guy is a Felon and is prohibited from owning or buying a firearm then by law he should be arrested for attempting to buy that gun. The law already exists for that to take place but it NEVER happens in practice.
If existing laws were enforced then perhaps we could get more bad guys off the streets.
I don't see what's so hard to understand or accept about that. Hell, even the NRA has stated, what I posted about enforcing existing laws, on numerous occasions.
So lets not jump all over No1der for stating a pro gun owner position.
@Glenn
We can't ask teachers to do what is being suggested. Lets say a teacher, who carries a weapon regularly, is caught by surprise in her classroom and freezes up when some lunatic starts killing children. Do we now vilify the teacher for not using her/his firearm to save the kids? Do we sentence the teacher to jail time for not performing her/his duty? What about the guilt that such a teacher might carry around until he/she can't take it anymore and eats a bullet.
Teachers with firearms isn't the answer. Reason being that we're not talking about trained security who are taught how to respond to an emergency of such magnitude. We're talking about teachers, aka amateurs or enthusiasts who practice target shooting maybe but are not trained by any governing body about proper firearm use and handling in a school environment.
Accidents happen and the possibility of one of the children getting a hold of the weapon from an amateur/enthusiast is a very real problem. Lets say that does happen, without clearly spelled out rules and training do we just say "Well, accidents will happen." Or do we go and blame the teacher and run this amateur/enthusiast on the fast track to a prison cell. Or do we just fire him/her and let the families of the victims sue the pants off of this teacher/amateur/enthusiast?
So what exactly are the rules for armed teachers? Do you know? Does anyone? What is the protocol? What are the general rules and guidelines?
Do you know? Cause I certainly don't.
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Hell, lets take this further. Lets say a teacher/amateur/enthusiast doesn't freeze up and does shoot at the gunman. Lets say she kills or incapacitates the gunman but in the process an 8 year old gets caught in the crossfire. Or an 8 year old gets killed by the over-penetration of the gunman's body. Is the teacher guilty of manslaughter? Is the teacher/amateur/enthusiast guilty of murder? Does the teacher get praised for killing the gunman? What about the family of the dead 8 year old? Are they allowed repercussions against this teacher/amateur/enthusiast?
What ammo is to be used in a school setting to prevent the bullet from going THROUGH the gunman and into the skull of a child standing or hiding in a corner behind him?
Is only the teacher legally responsible for the dead 8 year old? Is the school responsible? Is that counties school system responsible? Who pays for the lawsuit? Who are the parents allowed to sue in this scenario? Only the teacher? The entire lineup that allowed the teacher to be armed?
What are the rules for these armed teachers/amateurs/enthusiasts? Who sets the rules?
If you can cover the whole scope of issues that this brings up with some sort of teacher/amateur/enthusiast in school gun use guidelines, laws or solutions I'd love to hear them.
My point wasn't about stopping the Sandy Hook shooting because up until he killed his mother, there weren't any crimes committed.
My point was that we don't need new laws but rather that we need to enforce the laws that already exist.
For example, if a guy walks into a gun shop and attempts to buy a gun but the background check returns information that this guy is a Felon and is prohibited from owning or buying a firearm then by law he should be arrested for attempting to buy that gun. The law already exists for that to take place but it NEVER happens in practice.
If existing laws were enforced then perhaps we could get more bad guys off the streets.
I don't see what's so hard to understand or accept about that. Hell, even the NRA has stated, what I posted about enforcing existing laws, on numerous occasions.
So lets not jump all over No1der for stating a pro gun owner position.
@Glenn
We can't ask teachers to do what is being suggested. Lets say a teacher, who carries a weapon regularly, is caught by surprise in her classroom and freezes up when some lunatic starts killing children. Do we now vilify the teacher for not using her/his firearm to save the kids? Do we sentence the teacher to jail time for not performing her/his duty? What about the guilt that such a teacher might carry around until he/she can't take it anymore and eats a bullet.
Teachers with firearms isn't the answer. Reason being that we're not talking about trained security who are taught how to respond to an emergency of such magnitude. We're talking about teachers, aka amateurs or enthusiasts who practice target shooting maybe but are not trained by any governing body about proper firearm use and handling in a school environment.
Accidents happen and the possibility of one of the children getting a hold of the weapon from an amateur/enthusiast is a very real problem. Lets say that does happen, without clearly spelled out rules and training do we just say "Well, accidents will happen." Or do we go and blame the teacher and run this amateur/enthusiast on the fast track to a prison cell. Or do we just fire him/her and let the families of the victims sue the pants off of this teacher/amateur/enthusiast?
So what exactly are the rules for armed teachers? Do you know? Does anyone? What is the protocol? What are the general rules and guidelines?
Do you know? Cause I certainly don't.
Edit:
Hell, lets take this further. Lets say a teacher/amateur/enthusiast doesn't freeze up and does shoot at the gunman. Lets say she kills or incapacitates the gunman but in the process an 8 year old gets caught in the crossfire. Or an 8 year old gets killed by the over-penetration of the gunman's body. Is the teacher guilty of manslaughter? Is the teacher/amateur/enthusiast guilty of murder? Does the teacher get praised for killing the gunman? What about the family of the dead 8 year old? Are they allowed repercussions against this teacher/amateur/enthusiast?
What ammo is to be used in a school setting to prevent the bullet from going THROUGH the gunman and into the skull of a child standing or hiding in a corner behind him?
Is only the teacher legally responsible for the dead 8 year old? Is the school responsible? Is that counties school system responsible? Who pays for the lawsuit? Who are the parents allowed to sue in this scenario? Only the teacher? The entire lineup that allowed the teacher to be armed?
What are the rules for these armed teachers/amateurs/enthusiasts? Who sets the rules?
If you can cover the whole scope of issues that this brings up with some sort of teacher/amateur/enthusiast in school gun use guidelines, laws or solutions I'd love to hear them.
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No1der, aside from it being a teacher in a school, what makes your scenario any different from any CCW defending himself in an inhabited area?
Are bystanders more of an issue in a school than at a bus stop?
Should teachers who are willing, be disallowed?
Why do you suppose all teachers are equal? As noted, my uncle had two bronze stars and other combat decorations from Nam. He was also a competitive shooter on his own time. Guess what his follow-on career to the Army was?
I am quite sure he'd have added value, had he ever encountered a schhol shooter, and had he been allowed to carry.
As far as training standards go, what standards are adequate? I was a Naval Aviator, not a ground guy. Yet I normally outshot the instructors at military quals, and I outshoot most of the cops I know. (Most cops are not gun guys. Of the many who are, some are very good, and some are exceptional - but I would guess less than half shoot as well as the general public seems to assume.)
At the extreme end, teachers might be (voluntarily) put through a shooting qual course along the lines of the one used by the Federal Flight Deck Officer program. That would be pretty expensive.
At the other extreme, the standard might simply be attainment of a carry permit.
Personally, I think the answer would lie somewhere in between.
Are bystanders more of an issue in a school than at a bus stop?
Should teachers who are willing, be disallowed?
Why do you suppose all teachers are equal? As noted, my uncle had two bronze stars and other combat decorations from Nam. He was also a competitive shooter on his own time. Guess what his follow-on career to the Army was?
I am quite sure he'd have added value, had he ever encountered a schhol shooter, and had he been allowed to carry.
As far as training standards go, what standards are adequate? I was a Naval Aviator, not a ground guy. Yet I normally outshot the instructors at military quals, and I outshoot most of the cops I know. (Most cops are not gun guys. Of the many who are, some are very good, and some are exceptional - but I would guess less than half shoot as well as the general public seems to assume.)
At the extreme end, teachers might be (voluntarily) put through a shooting qual course along the lines of the one used by the Federal Flight Deck Officer program. That would be pretty expensive.
At the other extreme, the standard might simply be attainment of a carry permit.
Personally, I think the answer would lie somewhere in between.
Maybe you're right no1der. Maybe standing around and wringing our hands would be best. I'd rather a trained person on site. Just knowing that person is there would be a deterrent.
From our Gov.
""I think there should at least be a discussion of that. If people were armed, not just a police officer but other school officials who were trained and chose to have a weapon, certainly there would have been an opportunity to stop aggressors coming into the school. So I think that's a reasonable discussion that ought to be had."
He went on to say that said person(s)would have to meet SPD standards, etc, etc. He isn't about to reccomend a non-shooter take up arms in the schools either.
I'm sure a coherent set of standards can be ironed out by the powers that be. I tend to believe that teachers have already been under scrutiny and even endure backgrond checks. I'm also sure that being a teacher does not make them non-hunters, nor non-carriers when outside the classroom.
As a kid, we often carried guns to school, as did some teachers. Rifles and shotguns were always visible in rifle racks behind truck seats. Nobody went on a rampage.
Truth is, morals have changed as have the American ethos. People used to be responsible for their own actions and own 'living'.
From our Gov.
""I think there should at least be a discussion of that. If people were armed, not just a police officer but other school officials who were trained and chose to have a weapon, certainly there would have been an opportunity to stop aggressors coming into the school. So I think that's a reasonable discussion that ought to be had."
He went on to say that said person(s)would have to meet SPD standards, etc, etc. He isn't about to reccomend a non-shooter take up arms in the schools either.
I'm sure a coherent set of standards can be ironed out by the powers that be. I tend to believe that teachers have already been under scrutiny and even endure backgrond checks. I'm also sure that being a teacher does not make them non-hunters, nor non-carriers when outside the classroom.
As a kid, we often carried guns to school, as did some teachers. Rifles and shotguns were always visible in rifle racks behind truck seats. Nobody went on a rampage.
Truth is, morals have changed as have the American ethos. People used to be responsible for their own actions and own 'living'.
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Guys, I am not against having armed personnel in schools. I'm against just "anyone" who buys a gun to be able to carry it in a school and say that they are protecting children.
Yes, it is a huge difference between the bus stop and school grounds. The difference is that school grounds are government property (unless they are private schools) and that means that LOTS of things must be taken into consideration.
The things that must be considered are the things that I mentioned two posts back. Once those issues are addressed then I'm guessing there will be clearly defined rules as to what is and isn't allowed.
As for the "wringing our hands" comment. No, it's not about wringing our hands it's about pushing our elected leaders to enforce the laws we already have is the answer.
Adding more laws isn't going to solve, fix or make anything better in any way and will only encumber law abiding gun owners.
Yes, it is a huge difference between the bus stop and school grounds. The difference is that school grounds are government property (unless they are private schools) and that means that LOTS of things must be taken into consideration.
The things that must be considered are the things that I mentioned two posts back. Once those issues are addressed then I'm guessing there will be clearly defined rules as to what is and isn't allowed.
As for the "wringing our hands" comment. No, it's not about wringing our hands it's about pushing our elected leaders to enforce the laws we already have is the answer.
Adding more laws isn't going to solve, fix or make anything better in any way and will only encumber law abiding gun owners.
@Mleak
Maybe, maybe not but the fact remains that in this day and age where lawsuits are the national sport and juries award BILLIONS of dollars in damages. Yeah, it's something that is on everyones mind and it does guide policy.
@Tinner666
No worries. Everyones nerves are a little frayed.
There are issues that come along with guns on school property that we will need to iron out the details on before it can be fully implemented. That was my other point but we are on the same page.
Maybe, maybe not but the fact remains that in this day and age where lawsuits are the national sport and juries award BILLIONS of dollars in damages. Yeah, it's something that is on everyones mind and it does guide policy.
@Tinner666
No worries. Everyones nerves are a little frayed.
There are issues that come along with guns on school property that we will need to iron out the details on before it can be fully implemented. That was my other point but we are on the same page.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
I'm convinced. I agree with the NY Times OP-ED that concealed handgun laws will lead to blood in the streets and the mowing down of bystanders.
In fact, I see no need for guns in amateur hands.
Yes, that's it.
Oh - by the way - having been in the classroom for years, if an armed murderer enters the room - I intend to break into a multicultural dance festival and cupcake sale.
I also apologize for carrying a firearm as I attended various religious services this season. I might, as an amateur, do something horrible. I certainly wouldn't save people as happened in the Colorado Church. Schools and religious locations certainly should not have weapons there in the hands of amateurs.
In fact, I see no need for guns in amateur hands.
Yes, that's it.
Oh - by the way - having been in the classroom for years, if an armed murderer enters the room - I intend to break into a multicultural dance festival and cupcake sale.
I also apologize for carrying a firearm as I attended various religious services this season. I might, as an amateur, do something horrible. I certainly wouldn't save people as happened in the Colorado Church. Schools and religious locations certainly should not have weapons there in the hands of amateurs.
@Glenn E. Meyer
I wasn't referring to you personally but be honest, do your skills and background represent the majority of teachers in the United States? Are you even representative of 50% of the teachers in the US?
I'm not trying to call you an amateur/enthusiast in the least and it's not personal as I'm sure you would pass any guidelines for security school personnel with flying colors (once those rules are set) but can you honestly tell me that even 50% of teachers are ready to face action? Even if they have CCP that doesn't mean that they are anywhere near your skill level.
Seriously, I wasn't talking about you and I thought you'd pick up on that. No offense intended.
Can you honestly tell me that you'd be fine with a teacher who never carried a gun in his/her life, heading out on their own, getting a concealed carry permit and bringing their gun to school?
@BGutzman
Nowhere in the United States are untrained people allowed to carry weaponry in Government buildings. So yeah, there have to be standards for CC in public schools.
I wasn't referring to you personally but be honest, do your skills and background represent the majority of teachers in the United States? Are you even representative of 50% of the teachers in the US?
I'm not trying to call you an amateur/enthusiast in the least and it's not personal as I'm sure you would pass any guidelines for security school personnel with flying colors (once those rules are set) but can you honestly tell me that even 50% of teachers are ready to face action? Even if they have CCP that doesn't mean that they are anywhere near your skill level.
Seriously, I wasn't talking about you and I thought you'd pick up on that. No offense intended.
Can you honestly tell me that you'd be fine with a teacher who never carried a gun in his/her life, heading out on their own, getting a concealed carry permit and bringing their gun to school?
@BGutzman
Nowhere in the United States are untrained people allowed to carry weaponry in Government buildings. So yeah, there have to be standards for CC in public schools.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
^^^ This.jimbob86 said:
There's a remote possibility that an armed teacher might accidentally wound or even kill A student, therefore it's preferable to lose twenty students and six faculty to intentional murder.
Somehow, the logic underlying that escapes me ...
But the sandy Hook shooter wasn't a felon, and he had never been involuntarily committed. He was not a prohibited person and he could legally buy a firearm. Yes, he tried to buy one a day or two before the shooting, but he wasn't "refused" or "declined." At 20 years of age, he couldn't have a carry permit in Connecticut so he would have had to wait five (I think) days to pick up any firearm he purchased. He didn't want to wait the five days.No1der said:
He was also a genius. If he couldn't have gotten a gun, don't you think he could have built a bomb that would have gone off?
Did you read Glenn's post? It doesn't take any special expertise or tactical training to lock down your classroom (assuming the school gives you the keys!), take cover behind a desk or something, and cover the door. If anyone attempts to breach the door, you've got a pretty clear target.No1der said:
This does not require SWAT training.
Someone asked you above: What existing laws would have prevented this incident? You haven't answered. Connecticut already has an AWB, Connecticut already has a "safe storage" law, and Connecticut already has a "must report stolen guns" law. (It's tough to report that your guns have been stolen when you're dead, though.)No1der said:
Whose side are you one?
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I honestly have no idea what your point is. Read my posts again because I said that nothing was going to stop Sandy Hook shootings and no law was going to change that.
I SAID THAT WE SHOULD ENFORCE THE LAWS WE ALREADY HAVE INSTEAD OF CREATING MORE LAWS THAT WOULDN'T HAVE STOPPED THAT KIND OF MASSACRE FROM HAPPENING ANYWAY.....
I swear that some people are reacting without actually comprehending what is being said at this point.
People are walking armed around Wal-mart, banks, grocery stores, flea markets, movie theaters, and malls all day long around your kids. In Florida we have roughly a million permit holders, out of about 15 million adults. If blood isn't running in the streets by now, why would it start flowing in the schools? Why is it that a child's life is precious enough to be protected in Wal-mart, but not at school?
@wayneinFL
Correct! Not at school. Reason being that PUBLIC SCHOOLS fall under the category of GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS and you can't do whatever you want in a GOVERNMENT BUILDING.
If you don't believe me try taking a gun into a court of law and see how far your CC permit gets you.
Correct! Not at school. Reason being that PUBLIC SCHOOLS fall under the category of GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS and you can't do whatever you want in a GOVERNMENT BUILDING.
If you don't believe me try taking a gun into a court of law and see how far your CC permit gets you.
While I'm not Glenn, I'd still like to respond to this comment. What is so different about government buildings, schools or otherwise, that makes them dangerous places to carry a gun? It seems to me that the risk to innocent bystanders of someone handling a gun unsafely, or simply missing their target, would be just as great in a shopping mall, movie theater, football stadium, festival, parade, or any of the other places where people congregate in large numbers without being prohibited from carrying. I also fail to see how a child being shot accidentally, while certainly tragic, is any more horrible than one being intentionally shot by an unopposed madman.
The fact is that in many, if not most, states including those like my home state of Indiana which has no training requirement whatsoever, obtaining a license to carry a gun in a fairly expensive, time consuming, and inconvenient process. Because of this, the people who are willing to devote the money, time, and inconvenience necessary to obtain said license are, by and large, quite serious and do not take it lightly. For the most part, if someone does not take carrying a gun seriously enough to do so in a safe and responsible manner, then they also don't take it seriously enough to go through the hassle of getting a license.
That all depends on what state you're in and what kind of government buildings you're talking about. In any case, I'm not talking about the laws that are on the books, but the laws that should and shouldn't be on the books. IMO, there shouldn't be a law against an adult with a valid permit carrying in a school.
@wayneinFL
Fine by me. Draw up the legislation and get it passed on a national level and this conversation will be moot.
As things are, whether you see a reason for it or not, the rules are not the same from State to State. They aren't even the same from County to County.
Edit: This has been what I've been saying all along. There have to be clearly defined rules (i.e. Legislation) that would define what sort of hoops a person has to go through to carry a concealed weapon in public schools on a national level.
If you can get the law passed that someone can stop at their local gun store on their way to work, purchase a shotgun and claim that they are ready to defend life and limb of students in a PUBLIC SCHOOL (Reads GOVERNMENT BUILDING) then that's fine too. Nevertheless, you still have to get the law passed.
Fine by me. Draw up the legislation and get it passed on a national level and this conversation will be moot.
As things are, whether you see a reason for it or not, the rules are not the same from State to State. They aren't even the same from County to County.
Edit: This has been what I've been saying all along. There have to be clearly defined rules (i.e. Legislation) that would define what sort of hoops a person has to go through to carry a concealed weapon in public schools on a national level.
If you can get the law passed that someone can stop at their local gun store on their way to work, purchase a shotgun and claim that they are ready to defend life and limb of students in a PUBLIC SCHOOL (Reads GOVERNMENT BUILDING) then that's fine too. Nevertheless, you still have to get the law passed.
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But schools are not an extension of the Federal Government but rather part of State and Local government. Also, the laws regarding carry in schools is not subject only to federal law, but also state and local law. For example, whether or not a teacher with a valid license to carry a handgun is allowed to do so in a school in Indiana is not left up to the Federal or even State Government, but the individual school district.
That notwithstanding, the question still stands as to what it is about a government building, be it a school or post office, that makes carrying a gun there so much more dangerous than doing so in a non-government building? The question that I'm asking you is not whether carry is legal in a government building, but why should or shouldn't it be legal?