The Next L.A. Riot??

Many send a significant amount of money home to relatives.

This is what troubles me a lot; money earned here (tax free, don't forget!) that get sent away and spent somewhere else. That's losing money without making any taxes; which is bad news for the economy.


You will also find real estate owned by Mexican immigrants, businesses owned by them. We are not running out of land or food or jobs or money.

Besides economic issues, the open border presents serious security issues. Much more serious than gang-bangers and petty thieves. While they aren't good, they are nothing compared to terrorists.
 
I find it saddening that we are willing to become advocates for illegal immigrants because we think that other Americans are lazy. That, too me, is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Remember, other Americans regard you as the lazy ones, as well.

I wasn't advocating illegal immigration. I'm against it. But it's like the drug trade if you ask me. If there wasn't a market for them it'd dry up. My point being that if a lot of Americans were not so lazy, there'd be no (or less) illegal immigration.

...If the shoe fits...?
 
By OneInTheChamber

(tax free, don't forget!)

Do you have a source which backs up this assertion?

There have been quite a few studies which have found the opposite.

Here is a study done in Idaho which relates well to this entire thread.

Quote from the Idaho study

More than 78.8 percent of undocumented Mexican migrant workers paid Social Security and federal taxes through payroll deduction. Over the next 50 years, legal immigrants will add $407 billion to the Social Security system of the United States, according to a recent analysis by the American Immigration Laws Foundation (2003). Moreover, nearly 92 percent of undocumented Mexican migrant workers received their payments by check, while only 8.3 percent were paid with cash, implying that nearly 92 percent of undocumented Mexican workers pay taxes through payroll deduction (MMP 1994-2002).
 
It's really very simple. They are ILLEGAL, thus they have no right to be here. Try sneaking over the border to mexico without a passport or documentation. You'll find out real quick how different mexican treatment is from American treatment. You'll be lucky if you only spend 10 years in a mexican prison. No lawyer, no phone call, no trial. Though more than likely, you'll just be shot dead.

I spent 3 and half years stationed on a navy ship in San Diego. If you wanted to go over the border into tiajuana, you had better take a couple of twentys. Cause if and when the police over there arrest you, with no reason I might add, it will take those twentys to see you back over the border. I've seen the corruption with my own eyes.

Why is it that when we deal with foreign governments, our politicians always act like whipped little cowards. Afraid to do anything that will put a negative spin on them from any crowd. It's sickening.:mad:
 
Great thread! This is truly a passionate issue with all here.
As a Californian I've watched this up close and personal develope over the many years. Regardless of our laws and our ancestory and all the "would haves" and "should haves" The Reagan Adm. tried to acomplish some kind of "split the baby" back in the mid 80's. It was a 5 million count problem back then. Now it's a 20 million.
I've observed businesses of all types get fat off the backs and sweat of desparate people trying to improve their family's lives from other lands. Nobody did a thing to prevent these illegal employers from exploiting those folks and our country.
This country looked the other way for far too long.To retroactively repair it now ..ain't gunna happen! The truth is big business and gov't panders to these folks because they are a huge influential block thanks to our neglect. The largest (peaceful) demonstration in the history of this country validated this to the world this past week.
"W" as well as TK have blessed this baby. Your about to see another line drawn in the sand like back in the 80's and BS guest worker programs which will validate another wave. The illegal employers will get rich...the illegal workers will upgrade thier lives and the vanishing middle class will take another hit in the caboose. Don't you love it when your President unites with the opposition to make statements like "jobs Americans won't do?"
Hell that's every job in the land that pays slave wages....which is the objective folks!
The wage earner has had his work outsourced...insourced and not even been kissed first!
The middle class in this land better learn to scream loudly and clearly before
obsolescence sets in.
Between the sell off of our country's assets and the sell off of our work your watching a crime in progress!

Rimrock
 
JR,

Since your personal experience seems to be more valuable than my personal experience, are there any articles or stats you could direct us to that demonstrate the type of legal employment loss people in Georgia are suffering?



I'm not in favor of illegal immigration, as I already said. I am saying that our immigration and green card policies don't seem to reflect reality very well, and end up wasting a great deal of tax money enforcing something that many Americans don't want and won't help enforce.
 
I would like to point out this is NOT a Republican or Democrat issue. Both sides seem to be in agreement, as they were with the NAFTA and GATT. It would be disingenuous to claim one party is to blame or even one party is more to blame.

I agree they are ILLEGAL, and in a perfect situation they would go home. It is much easier to make these proclamations collectively, it is more difficult on an individual basis.

I believe US moves to legitimize illegals should be done through negotiations with the Mexican government. Requirements upon the Mexican government to allow for private property, wage standards, social systems, corruption prosecution, etc. Without a better situation in Mexico illegal immigration will continue because of desperation regardless of laws in the States.

What frustrates me is the lack of negotiation requiring reform of the Mexican government.

Also this is not a "Big Business" issue. Most illegals are employed by small businesses or are self employed. If they are employed by "Big Business" I am sure they are not working on a cash basis, therefore they are paying the same taxes everyone else pays. Furthermore if they are using a fictitious SS # they are not filing income tax. Most would probably be eligible for a refund if they were. Many outspoken opponents of Mexican immigration hire Mexicans to do their yard work and domestic labor. They love Consuela and Pedro, they hate illegals.
 
I don't think it's possible for the mexican government to be reformed. There are lots of people scutinizing our own government and there is still some form of corruption in it. Who is really watching the mexican government and what can they do about anything over there?:cool:
 
Glock

Maybe if proud Mexicans are able to educate themselves in mass and raise their economic status here in mass, these masses of educated financially secure Mexicans will take back their homeland eventually?
 
They are illegal and shouldn't be here but the reason they are here is people hire them. Employers are the ones causing the problems and they are the ones who should get the jail time. If taxes are not being paid it is because employers are not taking out the taxes from the pay. They are not taking out SS so this too is against the law. Seems to me that employers are the ones selling out America for a buck.

They are fools to hire the illegals because the drain on the system for medical and everything else causes prices on needed services to go up. People being people they never think about what they are doing just got to make the money or got to have things their way. No longer do people think about the good of the country.

If you compare what employers are doing to any other bad thing that happens it would be polution. Employers are poluting the country by bringing in illegals to make a buck. Even worse our government is going along with them.

25
 
To stir the pot...

I would throw out that before our wonderful "safety net" programs came out for lawful citizens (Thanks FDR :rolleyes: ) MOST poor folks worked two jobs and would take whatever work they could to support their families. There's no inherent nobility in the recent illegals.

Once folks figured out you could just ride the dole the impetus to leave WV to, say, pick strawberries in Cali disappeared. Tom Joad shouldn't have been beaten but there was nothing evil about him having to pick up stakes to go where work was. Life ain't fair like that.

The need for more and more illegal labor can be indirectly traced from our attempt to turn life into a social fairness game and the pricing of basic jobs out of reach of employers by modern labor entities.
 
I get a little tired of all the crap labor unions get. Union employees make the wage that the company agreed to pay in exchange for their services - market value.

Whenever a company runs itself into the ground (GM) by making bad products and bad management decisions it immediately becomes the fault of the unions. But union laborers do a fine job and build quality on all American built cars, for instance, is excellent. So I don't find the union theory of bankruptcy particularly compelling when GM employees do such a nice job assembling a car as amazingly stupid as the Pontiac Aztec and a host of others. I very much doubt the Americans at the US Toyota and BMW plants are paupers compared to their Detroit cousins.
 
How about we just build a fence???? And have riflemen there to back it up. This is the security of our nation we are talking here. If it were terrorists running across (which could well be happening), we'd take it a little more seriously.

My opinion is that if some lady with 6 kids can hop over it like its nothing; imagine what trained and committed terrorists could bring over it (dirty bombs, etc.)
 
How about we just build a fence???? And have riflemen there to back it up. This is the security of our nation we are talking here. If it were terrorists running across (which could well be happening), we'd take it a little more seriously.

My opinion is that if some lady with 6 kids can hop over it like its nothing; imagine what trained and committed terrorists could bring over it (dirty bombs, etc.)

There are different kinds of terrorism and illegals are economic terrorist sent to destroy middle class Americans. The lady with six kids you will have to spend tax money to support and educate. Money that is better used elswhere.

25
 
I very much doubt the Americans at the US Toyota and BMW plants are paupers compared to their Detroit cousins.

This is a good point. Last I knew the Toyota plant in Kentucky is a non-union plant. If there is an unproductive worker on the line they are replaced, simple. If there is a non-productive worker on the GM union line dismissal requires attorneys, negotiation, severance package, etc., if the person can be removed at all. I don't believe all union workers are lazy or inept, the problem is getting rid of those who are.
 
Orig post by Handy I get a little tired of all the crap labor unions get. Union employees make the wage that the company agreed to pay in exchange for their services - market value
Well put! The collective bargaining process in this country provides wage earners a way to arrive at EQUITABLE compensation for theit labor. No wonder "they" try so hard to destroy it. One of the last truly democractic processes left in our communities!
orig post by pipoman This is a good point. Last I knew the Toyota plant in Kentucky is a non-union plant. If there is an unproductive worker on the line they are replaced, simple. If there is a non-productive worker on the GM union line dismissal requires attorneys, negotiation, severance package, etc., if the person can be removed at all. I don't believe all union workers are lazy or inept, the problem is getting rid of those who are

Anyone believing that those workers aren't the best trained, hardest workers is just plain wrong. The myth that a union workers can't be fired is also nonsense generally perpetuated by poor management.


Prudent progressive discipline provisions contractually agreed to keep good workers good and provides others with opportunities to comform or be gone.
Unless you like having you and your family dependent on the day to day whims of a line boss name Gus who drinks beer with a group of which your not a part. Unions don't take bad cases to court or arbitration as a rule! If it's necessary it's because something has been seen as total unfair and corrupted by the membership. It has served this country well.
Now which system do you think produces the most inequities? Gus's or one produced by collective bargaining?

Rimrock
 
To the topic, first I have to acknowledge that we (meaning Americans) are nearly all decended from 19th an 20th century immigration in one way or another. That being said, we also have to recognize that the many different cultures that immigrated here helped to shape what our American culture is today. What CAN'T be ignored, bowever, is that we do have what is easily identified as a well-founded AMERICAN culture here. Though varied in countless ways from one household to the next, there are many deep rooted standards of what our culture as a whole represents. Our grandperents or great-grandparents understood this when they came from where ever they originated even way back then. And though they did bring pieces of their former culture with them and hold on to it, they adapted to what the standard was here in order to carve out and have a place for themselves as Americans. It was not only expected, but in many ways it was required.

Now, thanks to ignorance or even plain stupidity in the form of "Politically Correctness" and "Culteral Tolerance", we really are in danger of loosing our own identity. Not only is it not expected for immigrants to learn and adapt themselves to our culture, it has become wrong for us to even think they should make an effort to blend even in part to the general culture and standards here. It has reached the point that we, who have been here for generation after generation, now have to make every effort to adapt ourselves to accomodate and make openly welcome a foreign culture even when it reaches a point of infringing upon our own. I am far from racist, but there needs to be lines drawn, and action taken to curb the flood of immigration that has gone completely out of control. There comes a time when we do need to start protecting what we have spent the last 200+ years becoming and stop protecting those who think it's their right to change, step on, or otherwise ignore who WE are and what WE as a country and culture represent just because they're here now and it's their right granted just by their presence---especially when they AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE!

On a personal note... When I'm in Washington state, and see 'Help Wanted' signs posted and all of them say boldly "MUST SPEAK FLUENT SPANISH" or are just written in Spanish all together, I can't help but say there is a problem. When I'm in Wal-mart in Colorado, and a store employee starts speaking to me in Spanish, then has to go get someone else to help me because THEY didn't speak ENGLISH, there is a definite problem. When I'm expected to improve my own Spanish because 95% of the sub-contract crews in the construction field (legal OR otherwise!) within a 500 mile radius can't speak a word of english, yup--you guessed it--We have a BIG problem, and it's getting bigger by the millions every year.

I don't want to be misunderstood as singling out or focusing strictly upon our southern neighbors, but it's not only difficult but also very stupid to ignore the facts when they slap me in the face daily. Rationalizing and dancing around the issue is what has allowed it to get so out of control for so long. It's not like a Vegas slot machine that will eventually pay off if you keep pulling the handle long enough. We can't expect a different outcome than we've been getting for years if we keep repeating the same action (or lack there-of).

I honestly see it no differently than the smaller scale of my own house. If you come to my house, you will likely be made welcome, but it must be understood that there are rules of my house. Do not come to my house with the idea that you'll walk in at any time without knocking, abuse my furniture, change my decor if you don't like it, help yourself to whatever you want at any given time, and then decide you're just going to leave when you're damned good and ready and not a moment before--all the while expecting me to adjust and without showing the slightest notion of thanks for any of it. I tend to look at my country the same way.
 
Artificial restrictions on allowing individuals to negotiate their own wages are discriminatory and not in the individual consumers best interest.

If someone can independently demonstrate equal competence and is willing to price their labor competitively less than the collective bargaining unit they should be able to. That's free enterprise. They should be able to work in any shop without waiting in line behind those with more seniority or family connections in the union. They should not be forced to surrender a portion of their income to that same collective in return for benefits that are getting more and more ephemeral and counter-productive to their continued employment and may in fact be used by the collective to support political parties or legislation the individual does not in fact support.

Government should also not be suborned by the collective's dollars into creating legislation that in essence creates a monopoly on labor supply by the collective unit.

This would include the ABA, AMA and all other tacitly government-supported monopolies, not just the trades.
 
Hey Rim,

I think it is telling that the Toyota plant is up and assumably profitable, yet the "Big 3" have sent the union jobs which used to be here across every border they can.

Boeing is a major employer here. Last year Boeing sold their manufacturing facilities (except for US Military division). Boeing didn't go out of the airplane business. Airplanes are easy to move across borders or around the world after they are manufactured. The union employees at the local plant were striking, threatening strikes, protesting business decisions, and generally making day to day operations more difficult. A sheet metal installer with a screw driver and a pocket full of screws is prohibited by union contract from installing a screw which was missed in the cabin of the plane he is 3 feet away from requiring an interior union employee from 2 plants away to be dispatched to the problem. Now commercial planes particularly for foreign markets are in production in China. Do you believe this has nothing to do with the cost of union labor?

While I don't blame the unions for every outsourced job they certainly share in the responsibility. I agree that the collective bargaining process is effective as long as demands are reasonable. I feel union leadership would do well to determine what is reasonable using similar criteria as the manufacturer concerning the cost of using a foreign plant vs. union BS.

As for the topic of this thread I have wondered if the same amount of immigrants had poured into the US from the former Soviet states, would the complaints be as loud?
 
Back
Top