The Next L.A. Riot??
- Thread starter OneInTheChamber
- Start date
CobrayCommando
Moderator
No. You don't understand, many of them literally teach their children that the US is the devil and that Mexico is God, where everything is perfect and pigs waddle around cooked with forks in them. My friend's mother used to be a public school teacher, she bore witness to this, and also that many of the younger ones (sub highschool) believe that they are actually IN Mexico. Can't say I blame them, having been to a few of the neighborhoods around me.
I have a problem with the "huge waves of uncontrolled immigration". I think that Handy is mixing the immigrants who settled into many unincorporated areas of the United States a couple of hundred years ago, with illegal immigrants as we see today.
The Irish, Scottish, Polish, Russians, and so on, that we have here in our cities came here legally, for the most part. They learned English, and embraced their new home. The current immigrants from many countries are noisily opposed to the input of the illegals. They feel that they worked hard, and waited, to come into America. This is now their home, and the illegals are making it harder for them to be assimilated.
As for the idea that the GOP is somehow to blame for this, are you out of grade school yet? The ONLY way that you'd think that would be if you've only been born in the past few years. This has been an increasing problem for decades, and both political parties, and some less important wannabes, have all failed to come up with a politically correct answer.
The illegals work hard. However, they also provide a cheap labor pool of experienced workers. This makes it harder for the young man graduating to enter into a trade, as the journeyman programs are drying up. Getting a job as a carpenter, electrician, bricklayer, etc. was hard enough without adding in a pool of experienced people who will work for less than minimum wage.
As for blaming the people hiring them, it's a double edged sword. We all like to get a deal, and will push to find cheaper alternatives. Why should that not be the same with a business owner? It's a lot like the speed limit. The only people who whine about those who exceed it are the ones who got caught.
It's not going to be easy, and things will cost more, when we finally get serious about the illegals and boot them out. They need to go. Then replaced with a program that actually oversees the needs of the country. They are guests, and should abide by the rules of the house.
The Irish, Scottish, Polish, Russians, and so on, that we have here in our cities came here legally, for the most part. They learned English, and embraced their new home. The current immigrants from many countries are noisily opposed to the input of the illegals. They feel that they worked hard, and waited, to come into America. This is now their home, and the illegals are making it harder for them to be assimilated.
As for the idea that the GOP is somehow to blame for this, are you out of grade school yet? The ONLY way that you'd think that would be if you've only been born in the past few years. This has been an increasing problem for decades, and both political parties, and some less important wannabes, have all failed to come up with a politically correct answer.
The illegals work hard. However, they also provide a cheap labor pool of experienced workers. This makes it harder for the young man graduating to enter into a trade, as the journeyman programs are drying up. Getting a job as a carpenter, electrician, bricklayer, etc. was hard enough without adding in a pool of experienced people who will work for less than minimum wage.
As for blaming the people hiring them, it's a double edged sword. We all like to get a deal, and will push to find cheaper alternatives. Why should that not be the same with a business owner? It's a lot like the speed limit. The only people who whine about those who exceed it are the ones who got caught.
It's not going to be easy, and things will cost more, when we finally get serious about the illegals and boot them out. They need to go. Then replaced with a program that actually oversees the needs of the country. They are guests, and should abide by the rules of the house.
Every ethnic group who have immigrated to this country historically have been impoverished upon arrival. Royalty and tycoons in their own country have little interest in immigrating.
Immigrants have always been cheap labor used for the less desirable jobs in our society.
nonsense
With immigrants come consumers, the economy gets larger thus providing more jobs. There is now and will continue to be good jobs for good workers.
The years of lazy workers getting $25 per hour for being a member of a labor union are coming to a close because of lazy workers getting $25 per hour.
I like to be able to pick and choose who enters my house. I don't take kindly to someone who comes in without asking, sits down at my dinner table, and eats food that I have purchased for my family. The same applies to my country. I want my country to be hospitable to outsiders, but I expect those outsiders to follow the rules while they're here, and one of those rules is that you have to be invited before you can come in.
There are a number of myths regarding illegal immigration. The most widely believed seems to be that illegals fill a niche in the economic stata by filling jobs that Americans don't want. My belief is that the opposite is true; wages for those jobs have been depressed by illegal immigrants to the point that Americans can't make a decent living doing them. A good example is the construction industry. Until recent years, someone with only a high school diploma could make a good living by starting out as a framer building houses, and from there advance to an apprentice carpenter, electrician or plumber. Now, construction jobs are almost entirely taken up by illegals, so our high school graduates are having a tough time finding work. How does this benefit the economy? Since a percentage of every dollar made by an illegal immigrant goes back to his or her home country, and they don't pay taxes, the costs of providing illegals with health care, education and other social benefits puts us even further in the hole.
I don't have any respect for a goverment that actively supports the mass exodus of its citizens. It's high time Bush told Fox in no uncertain terms that the US is sick and tired of being Mexico's patsy...
Regards,
JayCee
There are a number of myths regarding illegal immigration. The most widely believed seems to be that illegals fill a niche in the economic stata by filling jobs that Americans don't want. My belief is that the opposite is true; wages for those jobs have been depressed by illegal immigrants to the point that Americans can't make a decent living doing them. A good example is the construction industry. Until recent years, someone with only a high school diploma could make a good living by starting out as a framer building houses, and from there advance to an apprentice carpenter, electrician or plumber. Now, construction jobs are almost entirely taken up by illegals, so our high school graduates are having a tough time finding work. How does this benefit the economy? Since a percentage of every dollar made by an illegal immigrant goes back to his or her home country, and they don't pay taxes, the costs of providing illegals with health care, education and other social benefits puts us even further in the hole.
I don't have any respect for a goverment that actively supports the mass exodus of its citizens. It's high time Bush told Fox in no uncertain terms that the US is sick and tired of being Mexico's patsy...
Regards,
JayCee
Now lets say you have no food for your family. What are you willing to do to feed your family?
Many seem to believe immigrants throughout the course of American history have been invited guests into this country and not refugees on the door step. If they were invited it seems Ellis Island suffered from poor planning for their invited guests.
I am not picking on you JayCee, I believe there have been the same arguments about every ethnic group who have immigrated to this country. The immigrants have always been the butt of jokes, accused of stealing jobs from "Americans", forecasts of doom for our economy, etc. This is a redundant argument never demonstrated in the history of immigration in America.
Native American
Of all the PC terms that infuriate me, Native American has got to be one of the worst. Everyone born in the western hemisphere can be correctly referred to as a "Native American".
I was born in the United States, and can trace my family back over 300 years in this country, and a couple of hundred more in Europe. While this is a source of personal pride, it doesn't make my family any "better" than someone whose parents came to this country the day before they were born.
What matters is how we behave, as "Americans". A century ago, it was generally understood that your family's country/ethnic origins were a private thing, the old county's language spoken at home, not in public. National flags and celebrations of ethnic origin were reserved for special holidays and gatherings. The rest of the time, people worked hard at being Americans, and left their diverse pasts at home, as much as they could. The ideal for many generations of immigrants was that while they may have come from somewhere else, their children would be "American".
Our borders have always been "open", compared to many nations on earth. What makes the situation today worse than in the past?
Perhaps it is the fact that the waves of hispanic immigrants don't follow the same rules as the waves of European immigrants did. Instead of going through the process of legal immigration, the people "flooding across our southern border", don't check in at Ellis Island, or anywhere else.
Perhaps it is that the rest of America doesn't see the hispanic immigrants as trying to fit in, to assimilate into our culture like the Europeans did. I think part of the reason for this is the fact that Spanish has virtually become a second language in large portions of the United States. Non-hispanic people see this and often wonder why. Why Spanish, why not Italian, German, etc. why do the hispanics not leave their language like all the other immigrant groups? (yes, every group has their own "town" areas, where they live and speak native language, that is not what I'm talking about here)
To think that hispanics are not smart enough to learn English is both patently false, and decried as racist, so what else could be the reason?
I have heard the opinion expressed, that the reason is arrogance. "They don't want to be Americans, to speak English, to assimiliate, etc..." And of course, this kind of thinking frequently breeds resentment.
Also, there is resentment among the rural poor. I don't have contact with urban poor, but I would be surprised if similar feelings didn't exist there as well. Rural low income non-hispanics (did I get all the PC words right?
) have been literally forced out of many menial jobs by hostility from the large numbers of hispanics they work with. (I don't mean to imply that this is a general condition, but it is much more prevalent than is acknowledged). When they hear somone in a suit saying "how much we need these people, how they do the jobs no one else will do", they get pissed. They know better, their own life experiences have taught them so.
On top of all that, there is the drain on social services that the illegal immigrants create. More resentment. And every time they turn around, the media shoves someone in their faces, crying for more tolerance, better treatment, more benefits for the illegals, etc...People are getting fed up and mad. Govt (both parties) have ignored any real attempt at solving this problem for years, the status quo benefits them.
Now, enough people have been yelling loud enough, long enough, that the politicians have decided they have to do something. And as usual, they are going to do a few right things, and a lot of wrong things. My guess is that they will only make the situation worse, if they can.
the idea of building an Iron Curtain type wall on the border is emotionally appealing, but I don't think it is all that practical, both in the real world, and in the world of social perceptions. I think we out to try a different approach. Sure, tighten border security, that does need doing. But to reduce the illegal immigration problem, we should reduce the benefits of being here illegally. Call me a cold hearted bastard, but I feel that no Govt agency (local, state, Federal), should pay ANYTHING to the illegal alien. No food stamps, no housing, no medical (except to prevent death - I'll go easy here
), no schooling, no daycare, NOTHING like that.
Give aid as needed to LEGAL immigrants, the people who respect our system.
As for businesses hiring illegals, if they pay them the same wage as legals (or citizens) then there is no benefit to hiring them. If they don't, then they are cheating America. Saving a few bucks for themselves, but cheating the rest of us, kind of like cheating on your taxes, only worse.
Putting some teeth in enforcement and prosecution for hiring illegals probably wouldn't hurt (much), and for this, some kind of "Guest Worker" program would just about be unavoidable. The problem would be with the exact nature and application of the program. What ever the politicians come up with, it won't be the best thing for us.
sorry to ramble, but this issue pushes one of my buttons.
Of all the PC terms that infuriate me, Native American has got to be one of the worst. Everyone born in the western hemisphere can be correctly referred to as a "Native American".
I was born in the United States, and can trace my family back over 300 years in this country, and a couple of hundred more in Europe. While this is a source of personal pride, it doesn't make my family any "better" than someone whose parents came to this country the day before they were born.
What matters is how we behave, as "Americans". A century ago, it was generally understood that your family's country/ethnic origins were a private thing, the old county's language spoken at home, not in public. National flags and celebrations of ethnic origin were reserved for special holidays and gatherings. The rest of the time, people worked hard at being Americans, and left their diverse pasts at home, as much as they could. The ideal for many generations of immigrants was that while they may have come from somewhere else, their children would be "American".
Our borders have always been "open", compared to many nations on earth. What makes the situation today worse than in the past?
Perhaps it is the fact that the waves of hispanic immigrants don't follow the same rules as the waves of European immigrants did. Instead of going through the process of legal immigration, the people "flooding across our southern border", don't check in at Ellis Island, or anywhere else.
Perhaps it is that the rest of America doesn't see the hispanic immigrants as trying to fit in, to assimilate into our culture like the Europeans did. I think part of the reason for this is the fact that Spanish has virtually become a second language in large portions of the United States. Non-hispanic people see this and often wonder why. Why Spanish, why not Italian, German, etc. why do the hispanics not leave their language like all the other immigrant groups? (yes, every group has their own "town" areas, where they live and speak native language, that is not what I'm talking about here)
To think that hispanics are not smart enough to learn English is both patently false, and decried as racist, so what else could be the reason?
I have heard the opinion expressed, that the reason is arrogance. "They don't want to be Americans, to speak English, to assimiliate, etc..." And of course, this kind of thinking frequently breeds resentment.
Also, there is resentment among the rural poor. I don't have contact with urban poor, but I would be surprised if similar feelings didn't exist there as well. Rural low income non-hispanics (did I get all the PC words right?
) have been literally forced out of many menial jobs by hostility from the large numbers of hispanics they work with. (I don't mean to imply that this is a general condition, but it is much more prevalent than is acknowledged). When they hear somone in a suit saying "how much we need these people, how they do the jobs no one else will do", they get pissed. They know better, their own life experiences have taught them so.On top of all that, there is the drain on social services that the illegal immigrants create. More resentment. And every time they turn around, the media shoves someone in their faces, crying for more tolerance, better treatment, more benefits for the illegals, etc...People are getting fed up and mad. Govt (both parties) have ignored any real attempt at solving this problem for years, the status quo benefits them.
Now, enough people have been yelling loud enough, long enough, that the politicians have decided they have to do something. And as usual, they are going to do a few right things, and a lot of wrong things. My guess is that they will only make the situation worse, if they can.
the idea of building an Iron Curtain type wall on the border is emotionally appealing, but I don't think it is all that practical, both in the real world, and in the world of social perceptions. I think we out to try a different approach. Sure, tighten border security, that does need doing. But to reduce the illegal immigration problem, we should reduce the benefits of being here illegally. Call me a cold hearted bastard, but I feel that no Govt agency (local, state, Federal), should pay ANYTHING to the illegal alien. No food stamps, no housing, no medical (except to prevent death - I'll go easy here
), no schooling, no daycare, NOTHING like that.Give aid as needed to LEGAL immigrants, the people who respect our system.
As for businesses hiring illegals, if they pay them the same wage as legals (or citizens) then there is no benefit to hiring them. If they don't, then they are cheating America. Saving a few bucks for themselves, but cheating the rest of us, kind of like cheating on your taxes, only worse.
Putting some teeth in enforcement and prosecution for hiring illegals probably wouldn't hurt (much), and for this, some kind of "Guest Worker" program would just about be unavoidable. The problem would be with the exact nature and application of the program. What ever the politicians come up with, it won't be the best thing for us.sorry to ramble, but this issue pushes one of my buttons.
Do you mean would I break into my neighbor's house if I had no food for my family? I don't know...fortunately, I've never been in that situation. I would like to think that my moral character is strong enough that I would find another alternative to breaking the law. But to 11 million illegal aliens, that thought seems not to have crossed their mind. And I doubt that all 11 million were forced to make that choice...
What you say is partially true; however, at the peak of immigration-from the 1880's to about the time of the First World War-there were plenty of opportunities for immigrants. There was lots of land available, and the nation was still largely agricultural. Immigrants were able to work the land and eventually earn enough money to buy a plot of their own. These plots of land were passed down from generation to generation, and each succeeding generation was able to increase its holdings and become more prosperous. These immigrants embraced the values and obeyed the laws of the country they adopted. The same is not true today. We live in an urban society. Most of the illegal immigrants come to the cities, and, because they have no right to be here, exist in a subculture that is separate and apart from the mainstream of society. Their allegiance is to Mexico, not the United States. Look at the number of Mexican flags that were waved during the recent protests. Is that the kind of immigrant we want?
Have you ever been to Mexico? (outside of Cancun's hotel district)
What has changed? Drive across this country, get away from the urban sprawl. You will find Mexican immigrants in every state and county. You will also find great expanses of open land. You will also find real estate owned by Mexican immigrants, businesses owned by them. We are not running out of land or food or jobs or money.
First generation immigrants who show pride in their homeland instill this trait in their children who know only the US as their homeland. Most Mexican immigrants I have encountered are proud of their heritage also love and will defend America.
No Irish need apply
TJ,
I'm not in favor of "illegal" anything. But like the stupid War on Drugs, the immigration thing is a perversion. US citizens benefit from imported labor, and the imported laborers benefits from a higher wage rate than in their home country.
This "taking away jobs" talk is foolish - when was the last time you saw people from the poorest parts of the US, like West Virginia, picking strawberries? Even the poorest Americans won't do the work that Mexicans feel happy to get. And producers can't stay in business by paying US pay and benefits.
I also think it is nuts to look at the past immigration patterns as if they were somehow different from today. The Irish immigration was largely urban, and they were so unwanted that the only jobs they could get were government - the origin of the Irish fireman and police tradition. Now everyone swills green beer once a year like the Irish were specially invited guests.
Half of my family came over from Poland and Sicily about 80 years ago, and didn't come through Ellis Island. They remained poor and unwanted goat herders until they moved to Milwaukee in the 1930s and started working in factories. There they found a very active ethnic community that preserved the language, food and customs of the old country, while each generation became more integrated. Any of that sound familiar?
We need to find the CORRECT way of harnessing the immigrant workforce without throwing away money on social services that are intended for citizens, only. But even in the current state of affairs, I would be awfully surprised if the tax burden of illegal immigrants is even half of the tax revenues generated by the industries they service. But the current half-assed state of affairs is just an embarrasing waste of tax dollars as we vehemently defend a border that has "help wanted" signs hanging on it. I don't have a solution, but a bigger fence is obviously not a good choice.
Anyone have any idea about that free passage treaty I mentioned?
TJ,
I'm not in favor of "illegal" anything. But like the stupid War on Drugs, the immigration thing is a perversion. US citizens benefit from imported labor, and the imported laborers benefits from a higher wage rate than in their home country.
This "taking away jobs" talk is foolish - when was the last time you saw people from the poorest parts of the US, like West Virginia, picking strawberries? Even the poorest Americans won't do the work that Mexicans feel happy to get. And producers can't stay in business by paying US pay and benefits.
I also think it is nuts to look at the past immigration patterns as if they were somehow different from today. The Irish immigration was largely urban, and they were so unwanted that the only jobs they could get were government - the origin of the Irish fireman and police tradition. Now everyone swills green beer once a year like the Irish were specially invited guests.
Half of my family came over from Poland and Sicily about 80 years ago, and didn't come through Ellis Island. They remained poor and unwanted goat herders until they moved to Milwaukee in the 1930s and started working in factories. There they found a very active ethnic community that preserved the language, food and customs of the old country, while each generation became more integrated. Any of that sound familiar?
We need to find the CORRECT way of harnessing the immigrant workforce without throwing away money on social services that are intended for citizens, only. But even in the current state of affairs, I would be awfully surprised if the tax burden of illegal immigrants is even half of the tax revenues generated by the industries they service. But the current half-assed state of affairs is just an embarrasing waste of tax dollars as we vehemently defend a border that has "help wanted" signs hanging on it. I don't have a solution, but a bigger fence is obviously not a good choice.
Anyone have any idea about that free passage treaty I mentioned?
Definitely a different time and culture. My grandparents came here from Sicily in the early 20th century. Went through the whole Ellis Island experience. My grandfather came here, in his words, "To be an American". He worked every dirty job there was, building roads, construction, concrete, picking produce, whatever. He took great pride in having helped build schools and houses because he felt that he was building America. He wouldn'tlet Italian be spoken in the house, and insisted that his children speak only English. The proudest day of his life was when he was sworn inas an American Citizen. He never asked for, or accepted anything he didn't earn, and flew his American flag on every holiday.
To watch these invaders wave the Mexican flag and claim that this land was stolen is to spit on the memory and life of everyone that came here legally and made a life for themselves. They shouldbe rounded up and deported en masse.
Handy, try getting a journeyman program entry for a young man who wishes to become a carpenter, bricklayer, electrician, or anybody else in the building industry. The programs have dried up. With the advent of "experienced" illegals, who will work for wages undercutting American standards, there's little need to expend the money.
Try being a college student working a part-time job in the service industry, as well. Many of these positions are also being taken over by illegals, and are driving the salaries down. Those who pay taxes, and have social security taken out of their salary are barely doing more than breaking even.
No matter what we think, the statement that the illegals are doing jobs that we won't is wrong. The seasonal jobs many of us held in high school and college are being filled with illegals. The fact that they "work hard" is bogus logic, because it creates the impression that legal Americans don't. Add to that the simple fact that legal Americans pay into the tax-base, pay medical insurance costs, pay into unemployment, and do so for most of their lives without withdrawing from any of these plans. The legal American also spends the majority of his money in the American capitalist system, and not into a foreign nation.
Try being a college student working a part-time job in the service industry, as well. Many of these positions are also being taken over by illegals, and are driving the salaries down. Those who pay taxes, and have social security taken out of their salary are barely doing more than breaking even.
No matter what we think, the statement that the illegals are doing jobs that we won't is wrong. The seasonal jobs many of us held in high school and college are being filled with illegals. The fact that they "work hard" is bogus logic, because it creates the impression that legal Americans don't. Add to that the simple fact that legal Americans pay into the tax-base, pay medical insurance costs, pay into unemployment, and do so for most of their lives without withdrawing from any of these plans. The legal American also spends the majority of his money in the American capitalist system, and not into a foreign nation.
Edward429451
Moderator
Handy of Polish decent? Good blood & good cookin'! (My Wife is from Poland, my dad wanted us to name our Kid Banacheck...mmmm Pierogies..)
We have trade Apprenticship programs all over Colorado and I'm sure we have our share of illegals.
I'm not denigrating Americans but Mexican workers are usually very hard workers and a lot of Americans ARE lazy and do the minimum required that they can get away with. I don't think people hire illegals because of the money but for the work ethic (production, hard workers.)
We have trade Apprenticship programs all over Colorado and I'm sure we have our share of illegals.
I'm not denigrating Americans but Mexican workers are usually very hard workers and a lot of Americans ARE lazy and do the minimum required that they can get away with. I don't think people hire illegals because of the money but for the work ethic (production, hard workers.)
Anyone have any idea about that free passage treaty I mentioned?
The treaty that brought Texas, New Mexico territory and upper California to the United States can be viewed here;
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/mexico/guadhida.htm
There is no mention of free passage between the countries except for Mexicans that did not wish to become US citizens to return to Mexico.
The treaty that brought lower California to the US can be viewed here;
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/mexico/mx1853.htm
Land navigation up the colorado river to California was specifically prohibited.
Regards,
Rick
The treaty that brought Texas, New Mexico territory and upper California to the United States can be viewed here;
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/mexico/guadhida.htm
There is no mention of free passage between the countries except for Mexicans that did not wish to become US citizens to return to Mexico.
The treaty that brought lower California to the US can be viewed here;
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/mexico/mx1853.htm
Land navigation up the colorado river to California was specifically prohibited.
Regards,
Rick
I doubt that you would. Here, near Atlanta, the Hispanics are quite prevalent in the building, janitorial, and fast-food industry. Many of those that work in the building, grounds maintenance, and janitorial service don't speak English. It's one person on the entire crew who may possess enough English to enable them to communicate. They have false social security numbers. When they arew discovered, they are fired. It's quite possible to see the same man a week later, with a new false social security number working on a near-by location.
You possess the most interesting method od discussion. You expect others to interpret your statements, while attempting to use their statements in the most literal manner, as long as it serves your purpose. I never said that ALL of the service-industry jobs were being taken. I said that MANY of the same jobs that were held by summer part-timers were gone, taken by illegals who would work for less.
To be quite frank, illegal is illegal. America had a pretty open immigration policy until the advent of the Depression, the actualization of Social Security, and the advent of WWII. Despite what some people think, there is a limit on what the country can accomodate before heading into the fourth world congestion and filth. Remember, huge acreage is devoted to farmland, more to watershed and aquifier retention, and a certain amount is protected to enable us to visit places where humanity isn't piled on itself. There are also areas where it isn't possible to build, due to lack of water, or other enviornmental concerns.
I find it saddening that we are willing to become advocates for illegal immigrants because we think that other Americans are lazy. That, too me, is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Remember, other Americans regard you as the lazy ones, as well.
You possess the most interesting method od discussion. You expect others to interpret your statements, while attempting to use their statements in the most literal manner, as long as it serves your purpose. I never said that ALL of the service-industry jobs were being taken. I said that MANY of the same jobs that were held by summer part-timers were gone, taken by illegals who would work for less.
To be quite frank, illegal is illegal. America had a pretty open immigration policy until the advent of the Depression, the actualization of Social Security, and the advent of WWII. Despite what some people think, there is a limit on what the country can accomodate before heading into the fourth world congestion and filth. Remember, huge acreage is devoted to farmland, more to watershed and aquifier retention, and a certain amount is protected to enable us to visit places where humanity isn't piled on itself. There are also areas where it isn't possible to build, due to lack of water, or other enviornmental concerns.
I find it saddening that we are willing to become advocates for illegal immigrants because we think that other Americans are lazy. That, too me, is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Remember, other Americans regard you as the lazy ones, as well.