The magic one shot stop

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i think we all know that, well, as far as hand to hand one shot stop is either a; a .357 mag (in good aim), or a .44 mag (i dont believe it matters). In an unarmed situation, there a few one stop shots (considering i am a hand to hand expert). You just have to know how do (not in detail) :
1) Disarm
2) Fight back
3) Pin
4) Execute a finisher
Depending on the situation, you may go for a sleeper hold, or several lethal pressure points.
Restated: Know where to shoot and what to shoot with, OR know how to disarm, fight back, pin, and execute a finisher.
 
The topic of this thread is the magic one shot stop.

If you believe that you can reliably make a majic one shot stop on a target by shooting them in the chest than there is nothing more for us to discuss.

I on the other hand do not believe you can reliably make a majic on shot stop on a target by hiting them in the chest. I do however believe you have much better chances of a majic one shot stop by hitting them in the head.
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I don't have any magic.

I always assume that I will have to hit the guy several times before he stops then I assume that he will not stop. I assume I will hit him where ever it is handy to hit him at the moment but that he does not go down. The head is a hard place to hit a fella at speed so I'll try else where first. I know what I can do. I assume that even if I empty a cylinder or magazine into him he won't go down. I assume the worst so that I don't disappoint myself.

In post #54 a scenario is proposed. A more useful scenario would be...
If Aquaman of DC comics and Prince Namor the Submariner of Marvel got into a gunfight in the briney depths what would be the best hand guns for them to use under water? What calibers? Could Aquaman call upon a flounder to get in the way of Namor's bullets and deflect them? Would oil in the Gulf slow the bullets down and Oh yeah, what about head shots underwater?

tipoc
 
I am absolutely certain that both shooters will be shot on every draw. Now the shooter shot in the head will sustain more than likely an immediate incapacitating hit.
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You just don't get it. It isn't the head that needs to be hit. The shooter hit in the head will not be more than likely to sustain an immediately incapacitating hit if the bullet does not do damage to the brain stem or penetrating damage to the brain.
 
I would poke him with a pretzel. Simple, he would have no reason to continue.

Alright, seriously, or as I am going to get. If that situation were to show itself I would forgo the entire use of a weapon and attempt to disarm him or get out of his reach first. I carry a knife, not a gun. I would honestly do my best to get out of the way and plant a knife in his skull. Headshot..?

If I had a gun I would most likely shoot for the stomach and be ready for his attack, if of course I had it drawn. If not, I would definitely do what someone already said and move, hit with a chair, move, draw, shoot, move. Then again, I should not have even bothered responding.
 
mossberg-az said:
Depending on the situation, you may go for a sleeper hold, or several lethal pressure points.
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Sorry, but I have to disagree with both of those. Exactly what is a "lethal" pressure point in your terms? A sleeper hold restricting the carotid artery is already considered lethal if not released soon enough. Any lethal pressure points I know of would be next to impossible to use against a large aggressor especially if they are on drugs. I am willing to bet you do some form of Jiujutsu by your post. What exactly qualifies you to be an "expert" in hand to hand combat? Were you trained by the military? Did they teach you "lethal pressure points"?
 
"pulls out a knife 12 feet away and charges you,"

Some police have what they call the 21 foot rule. If an armed attacker(with a knife, hammer etc.) get within 21 feet, shoot them because it takes less than a second for a human to charge 21 feet let alone 12. In your scenario you wouldn't even be able to draw if it was an unexpected attack.

"Will they hit the target in a real self defense scenario on the first try? Probably not. Keep firing till you do"

Assuming you eventually do.

"I would rather miss 3 shots and the 4th hit the head than fire 3 shots and the 4th hits the targets heart"

What is your attacker going to be doing while you are MISSING him?
 
I recently took a nine hour course in defensive pistol shooting. The drill called for shooting each of three head-and-torso sized steel plates twice at a range of seven yards, extremely quickly (and then reloading and repeating the cycle).

The stated dual purpose was to develop the skills need to defend against multiple attackers and to develop the skills necessary to hit a rapidly moving attacker (turning from one target to the next simulate movement).

At the speed required to accomplish the exercise, I believe there is absolutely no way that anyone, other than perhaps an exhibition shooter, could make head shots except by random chance. And the "heads" on these targets were not movng up and down.

The follow on course calls for doing the same thing while running--sideways, backwards, at various angles. I haven't taken it yet.
 
Self-appointed monitor warning. Don't read this if self-righteousness bothers you.

Self-appointed monitor warning. Don't read this post if self-righteousness bothers you.

Let's be civil, please.

Ignorance angers some people.

If you are one of those, please measure your responses and consider why you are responding. If you seek to assuage your anger, that's one thing. If you seek to educate the ignorant, that's a completely different objective.

Seldom does one accomplish both.

I suggest five things:

Determine the one thing you wish to accomplish with your post.

Put that in the subject line (Yes, this post violates this recommendation. These are not laws, just suggestions.)

Compose in a separate word processor and edit out anything that does not support the main objective. (This also helps protect your work if you experience a connection crash.)

Fix all ambiguous sentences or responses that depend on the context of prior posts that could be misinterpreted. Reference prior posts by quote or post # if necessary.

Be forebearing, if not forgiving. Most original posters are sincerely seeking constructive input.

I have noted that most of the posts here have sought to be civil and sincere, but some feathers have been ruffled and rancor expressed. Those of us who "do not suffer fools gladly" in real life might consider being more flexible in cyberspace.

I realize others' styles do vary. This is just my teaching style. I'm not saying sarcasm does not have its place, so I will not say you are wrong. I am just expressing the opinion that if your objective is to improve the attitude and behaviour or our fellow armed citizens (and survival rate), you should consider whether your posts invite discourse or discord.

Lost Sheep
 
There are a couple problems with your theory. I miss to the head is a stone cold miss. If you are hoping for a hit on round 4 fired, that is going to take a while and, those first three rounds did you no good whatsoever.

Missing the heart and spinal cord by a couple inches may still poke holes in important stuff. Missing the chest completely is just as ineffective as missing the head. But, the WHOLE chest is bigger than JUST the brain, so the odds of getting started in causing all his hydraulic fluid to leak out is better than missing the brain completely.

If you really think you can hit the head on a charging meth head, then you can really think you can put every round in the center of his chest, piercing his sternum his heart AND his spinal cord. So, the center of mass shot is still best.

In reality, in a real gunfight, you are not going to hit him in the head before he kills you, except by accident.
 
I'm having a hard time finding it or my Google-fu is failing me: I read a story of a man being shot in the head (even lost grey matter) with a high powered rifle, and still ran a decent distance away.
 
The first glaringly obvious problem with the posed question is the term "magic". Obviously, magic doesn't exist.

(On that note, check out this link and scroll to: "Safe Kids Practice Safe Shooting!" - http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=af10
--"And if you practice enough at shooting targets, you might even get good enough to shoot with your eyes closed, just like magicians! And the only thing cooler than safety is magic!"

But, seriously, like every other poster said I will chime in and +1 all day. You are betting on a fool's game if you can trust yourself to punch the apple with any round in a terrorizing situation. Like any firearm academic will tell you: double tap to the chest, assess the situation, and walk the pistol up while firing until a stop. If you aim at about armpit height, the double tap should put 'em out. Walking the gun up until the CNS is your best way to make sure your hits count. I'm pretty sure that's how they train the Marines these days, anyway.
 
Let me try this again and I'll keep Lost Sheeps useful ideas in mind :)

In this discussion we are not speaking of "gunfights" involving SWAT standoffs or military actions. We're speaking of the little down and dirty ones.

Recall the last time you got into a fist fight. For some it may have been years ago or when they were kids. Fist fights are a scrambling mess of confusion usually. Mostly you end up on the ground. There are no rules. You land a good solid punch and it has no effect. Many punches miss or glance off a shoulder. Your best moves are countered and many just forgotten.

The type of gun fight we're speaking of here is more confusing.

So arbitrarily let's say we have an opportunity to make a head shot and end the aggression right there. If you believe you can make it and the conditions are right I see nothing wrong with taking it.

But most often the conditions and the situation are not right.

Practice at the range and other places is useful for us to get a handle on what we can and cannot do. At what distance can we reliable and on command place 5 rounds center of mass in 2 seconds from the low ready and have each hit land on the target within 6x6" with none missing the target? At what distance can we make an aimed shot under pressure and at speed and do it reliably? When I know that I know some of my limitations.

I cannot make head shots at speed while under pressure and moving at 6 or 7 yards distance on demand. I miss too often. So do most folks. But I can land the shots to the body. So I use that. I do not want to send bullets down range to hit someone I don't want to.

I anticipate that my shots will have no immediate results and I'll have to grapple with the attacker. I anticipate being shot or stabbed. I anticipate these bad things happening to me so that if they don't I can be pleasantly surprised and if they do I won't won't be completely shocked.To increase my chances of survival I'll shoot center of mass, but if I can blow his jaw off I will of course do that.

Back to the fist fight..remember it was fast and confusing and the judo moves
your uncle showed you didn't work or you forget them. So let me suggest something that might be more useful than "head vs. body shots", etc....

Next time you are in a restaurant, bar, doctor's office, mall etc. Envision a man or woman walking in and opening fire on the other side of the room from you. What do you do? Envision a man walks to the table you are at and shoots the person next to you, what do you do? How do you buy time to get a gun out? If you have one. No big speeches he just walks in and surprises you by beginning to shoot. Another thing I find useful is reading reports in the media of shootings in my area and the areas I know and trying to find out what happened. I find these in the real world mental exercises more useful than some other things.

tipoc
 
Maybe there is some confusion on the SD scenarios I am thinking about vs what yall are thinking.

Example. Its 3:00 a.m. you hear some ruckus outside your house you walk to the window and see two men one holding a shotgun and one holding a pistol. They kick in your door and are now in your house. You grab your pistol and take a defensive position in your room waiting for them to enter.

As the guy with the shotgun walks into your room where would you aim?


I would aim for the head. If you hit him in the chest he probably is still going to kill you with the shotgun. So I would go for broke. Head shot drops the perpetrator. Chest shot gets you filled with buck shot if you are lucky and slug if you are unlucky.


Now I know in this scenarion 99% of you are going to comment "I would grab my shotgun or Ar15 instead" Well for this scenario all you have is a pistol.



Now tell me stuff like this does not happen. Last year we had 4 thugs do a home invasion in the day time I think it was 2:15 in the afternoon. 3 of the perpetrators were wearing body armor. and all were armed. So if you were armed and needed a "magic one shot stop" where are you aiming on these thugs?
 
SuperDave, I don't want you to take offense, but rather I just want to point out what is and has been wrong with this thread.

In post 1, you asserted that shots to the thorax should be completely abandoned as a tactic.

I belive you should forget thorax shots and go for the head.
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Then in post 73, after two days of posts patiently explaining why COM is a valid tactic, you add body armor to your scenario.

If your question was "Should you target something besides a BG's body armor for an effective stop with a pistol?" most people probably would have answered yes. But the target of your question keeps moving as much as, well, a bad guy's head.

There are situations in which attempting a head shot is a valid thing to do, but that does not mean that "you should forget thorax shots."
 
"So if you were armed and needed a "magic one shot stop" where are you aiming on these thugs?"

- Who's to say I can't try to rip through a magazine in less than three seconds? I think banking on the risk of a one shot stop is just too dangerous. The scenario you posited where a BG is armed with a shotgun: If you aim for the computer and miss (which is likely) you're probably EFF'ED. Even with body armor, any gun in your hands should at least temporarily incapacitate the target when hit COM. I couldn't think of any appropriate time to take a head shot unless it was an execution or you had a rifle zeroed well with a hell of a scope for a surprise takedown. Those are also two instances I would never find myself in.

Anyway, regardless of imminent threat, it is impractical and inadvisable to make your first shots to the CNS legally and morally. The hesitation alone in even thinking about the aftermath of me hitting your grey matter is enough to get me killed. COM? Won't think twice.
 
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So in summary if you really want that "magic one shot stop", I belive you should forget thorax shots and go for the head.
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And, if you are shooting for the head, shoot for an eye. As documented, head shots can be risky, but if you really want that one shot stop, a shot in the pupil outta do it.

For me, I'll stick with center mass in the heat of battle. I want my shots to hit rather than attempting to stop someone with one shot even if I have to pull the trigger a few times.
 
I threw in the body armor thing because the home invasion really did happen in broad day light. The family was tied up beaten I think the daughter was raped and the safe was opened and all their money was taken. Luckily no one was killed.

I said "Forget the thorax shot" because we are talking about "One shot stops"

That means "one hit and the perpetrator is no longer a threat"

Now again I know there are people who have survived brain shots, I also know there are people who were grazed in the head by a bullet. But they are far less numerous than people shot in the chest and survived.

The statistics for real life shootings in the chest thorax/body is a 80% survival rate. I guarantee you the statistics for surviving a head shot is much much lower. ( No I do not have or know of statistics showing the survival rate of a head shot)
 
The statistics for real life shootings in the chest thorax/body is a 80% survival rate.
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"Survival" is a far cry from "being effective". You seem to have this idea that nothing short of unconsciousness or death will take a BG out of the fight. Try to find some videos of how well people fight after taking a round to the chest, even if they do end up surviving.

And with the whole body armor issue, you're just moving the goalposts again, trying to come up with a situation where a head shot is the only answer. You were doing this 60 posts ago and you're still at it. If your mind's made up (which it appears to be), then lock your thread and move on.

I can't believe the Marines didn't teach you better.
 
I will try to find videos an link them here.

http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/angry-old-man-shoots-lawyer/e007227bf130ea61f847e007227bf130ea61f847-131289514629

I remember seeing on a year ago where this guy brought a gun to the court house with the intent of shooting his lawyer. He found the lawyer outside. Pulled out his gun. The lawyer ran behind a tree. The guy with the gun was on the other side of the tree. He would move around the tree and shoot the lawyer as the lawyer was trying to move around the tree for cover.

The guy with the gun shot the lawyer 5 times with his .38 +P. Once he ran out of ammo he just gave up and just walked off. The lawyer was just standing there with 5 bullet holes in him looking like :eek:

The lawyer sat down on the curb and waited for medical attention. Some passerbys saw what happend and tackled the shooter.
 
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