The magic one shot stop

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I only advocate a head shot in short distances.

I do not think a head shot in a SD scenario beyond 5 yards is a good idea.

Like you said adrenaline rush and fear etc.

But under 5 yards I think it is a realistic option to consider. Especially for very large targets hopped up on meth.
 
Of course, if it ever comes to trial, and the only shots were head shots, and that is all you've practiced, it might be hard to convince the jury you were only trying to stop him him and not kill him.
 
Down here in Florida we shoot to kill.

If it is a legal SD scenario it does not matter if you ment to shoot the attacker in the head or not.

We do not even have to attempt to retreat.
 
It's three inches from the center of my nose to the side of my skull. Even at only five yards, the difference between a hit and a miss is less than one degree of barrel movement.
 
Of course, if it ever comes to trial, and the only shots were head shots, and that is all you've practiced, it might be hard to convince the jury you were only trying to stop him him and not kill him.
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While I would never volunteer that fact that I was aiming for the head, there's no situation where a chest shot would be legally justified but a head shot wouldn't. As soon as you fire, you've employed "deadly force" regardless of where the round strikes - there are no gradiations.
 
Okay here is the scenario.

Tweeked out meth head, aproximately 6' and 290 pounds of pure muscle pulls out a knife 12 feet away and charges you, are you going to shoot him in the heart and hope he eventually decides to stop stabbing you with the knife, or do you take the head shot and drop him where he stands?


Your choice.
 
Moving target, less than a dozen feet separation and closing fast, and I may not be certain of what's behind him - I'm emptying the magazine into his chest.

Hell, at that distance, going for a point of aim that's two feet lower than his head might even buy me time for an additional shot before he reaches me.
 
My thinking is if you do not stop him instantly he will kill you with the knife.

So to me the best chance of survival is to shoot for the head and keep shooting till he drops.
 
You're moving the goalposts again. If you're going to frame the scenario so that only an "insta-kill" is going to save your life, and you're 100% confident of successfully getting a fatal head shot, then the answer is "yes, go for the head".

Again, I don't accept your premises.

And remember - "one degree of barrel movement", and you can't "walk your shots" onto the head.
 
Super-Dave said:
if the situation ever occurs and it was less than 5 yards. I am going for a head shot. I will keep firing all 18 rounds until the gun is empty and will not be running in any direction.
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Wow, I really wish someone had told me that in a gunfight at 5 yards I'd have time to stand flat footed and take well aimed headshots, much less 18 of them. I could have saved years worth of time and money in training had I only known it was that easy.

Seriously, your line of thinking doesn't jive with anyone who's actually BTDT. At 5 yards you're not going to have time for more than a flash sight picture, and you're going to be lucky if you have time to do more than fire from retention, all at a moving target no less.

I'd strongly suggest investing in some training, your current strategy is likely to get you killed.
 
Super-Dave said:
Tweeked out meth head, aproximately 6' and 290 pounds of pure muscle pulls out a knife 12 feet away and charges you, are you going to shoot him in the heart and hope he eventually decides to stop stabbing you with the knife, or do you take the head shot and drop him where he stands?
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At 12 feet it won't matter. At that range IF you manage to clear the holster before the aggressor is on top of you, you WILL be firing from retention. Good luck with that head shot.
 
Seriously, Super-Dave - it's like you started off the thread asking "what's the best integer between one and ten? - I think it's eight". Then you come back with "it's gotta be even", and then "it's gotta be greater than five", and finally "it's gotta be evenly divisible by four".

Look, you obviously want the answer to be eight, and you're willing to discount all conventional wisdom and experience in order to make the answer eight, so just pick eight already - obviously, your mind's made up.
 
I think that this is a foolish thought. A brain is about the size of a softball. 9-15 square inches. Unless you hit that brain or spinal cord, you are pretty much SOL. the whole skull is about the size of a big pummelo, and without a real serious hit, that was a complete miss. A graze on the skull won't disable a squirrel, even.

If you fire center mass to the torso, you are aiming at a target as large as the brain, the heart. You are aiming at a target twice the size of the skull, the lungs. And you are also firing at a target twice the size of the brain, and just as vulnerable, the spinal column. if you so much as strike a vertebra with a bullet, that target is going to go down. The spinal column is about 2" by 12". Then there are the kidneys and spleen and liver, and hits to any of them will instill enormous systematic shock.

When I have to fire at a person, How in the name of everything holy will I know that I have plenty of times and all those repeated opportunities to get a bullet into his brain? Before I even pull the trigger, I already know that he is going to be shooting at me, so why would I assume that I have the privilege of waiting for a perfect brain shot?

Only a great fool will choose to aim for the brain under a pressure situation, firing with a wing and a prayer, knowing full well that either he will make a near miracle hit, or a complete and total failure with a miss over or horizontally.

The only really intelligent and logical shot to take with a handgun in a combat situation is to fire for the chest cavity. No matter where you hit, in about a 10-12" x 14" shape, you are going to create a potentially disabling wound, if you have used an effective cartridge and bullet.

My handguns are all sighted in with only a single cartridge. Switching ammo to anything else in any of them would throw them off of target by as much as half a foot at 20 feet or so. Even so, I've found that without a doubt, I can't hit a 3" bull even 50% of the time in DA fire with any of my handguns, on astationary paper target.

I'd have to be a complete moron to try a brain shot in combat. I hope that nobody else even considers this idea.
 
This is true, but say you do fire 8 shots from your 1911. and 25% of the rounds hits the target in the chest. Thats 2 rounds. So the target is hit with 2 rounds in the chest. Even if you are lucky enough to get a heart shot it could be several miniutes till the target is incapacitated. In that time the target could easily cause serious damage to you.
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Then...

It seems to me most SD scenarios probably happen in less than 5 yards.

If you cant hit a 7" target either moving or stationary at 5 yards or less; then you do not need to be using a pistol.

Or

your pistol really really sucks.
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So... you're expecting a 25% hit rate on the chest, but then say that if you can't hit the head at the same distance you either shouldn't be using a pistol or your pistol really sucks? :rolleyes:
 
What I am trying to say is if you really want the majic one stop shot your best chances are for a head shot.

Now I do not think making a head shot greater than 5 yards is will be reliably accurate.

I do feel someone with some experience "the average shooter" should be able to hit a 7" target which is moving or stationary at less than 5 yards.

Will they hit the target in a real self defense scenario on the first try? Probably not. Keep firing till you do. If you get the head the odds are extremely great that the target will become incapasitated.

I would rather miss 3 shots and the 4th hit the head than fire 3 shots and the 4th hits the targets heart.

Now would I advocate any of this past 5 yards? No I would not.

But at less than 5 yards if you take aim at your target's head and keep firing till your gun is empty I believe the "average shooter" will get a head shot.

I also do not believe it has to be a complete brain shot to be effective.

If you missed the brain but made the head shot I believe this would be more effective in stopping the target than if you made a lung shot.

Now I know people will say "what if the bullet grazes the head?" Keep firing till the target is down!
 
Tweeked out meth head, aproximately 6' and 290 pounds of pure muscle pulls out a knife 12 feet away and charges you, are you going to shoot him in the heart and hope he eventually decides to stop stabbing you with the knife, or do you take the head shot and drop him where he stands?
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The fella is basically 3-4 steps away from you, armed with a knife and coming fast. If you already have a gun out and aimed at him my tendency would be to shoot him a bit, move and shoot him some more. Repeat as needed.

If I had a gun out but not aimed at him I'd do the same but the "move" part would be sooner and faster.

If I did not have a gun out (still in a pocket or holster and not in my hand) I'd move and/or do whatever I needed to to buy a bit of time to get my piece out. Hit him in the head with a chair a little bit comes to mind.

Of course a lot depends on the particulars of a situation. Is the fella charging me in a crowded restaurant or parking lot? If so, do I really want to send a bunch of rounds his way knowing that some will miss or that the likihood of some missing is greater?

If the man is that close to me and that fast some defensive action on my part would be more useful than trying to pull a gun.

This is why scenarios like the one painted here are not all that useful.

A couple of questions. In these scenarios why is it always a big guy on meth? Why not a little guy with a hammer.

Why is it always a stranger? Most attacks are by people you know. Ex-wife's boyfriend, daughter's boyfriend.

tipoc
 
What comes to mind right now are all the hypothetical discussions I have been involved in that concerned everything from a charging rhino to rabid star nosed mole, and what sort of gun should be used.

I must confess that I've never heard anyone ask the question, "when a 2,500 pound cape buffalo is charging you, hollering in buffalo speak that he is going to grind your bones to make his bread, are you going to aim at his head and just keep shooting until you are lucky enough to hit it, or are you going to put your sights on his chest and pray?"
 
You have to aim for center of mass plain and simple. You can't hit someone in the head while he's moving, it's just too easy to move a head and if you do hit it it was pure luck which I'm not willing to wager on in a SD scenario.

Someone earlier in this thread mentioned the brain is about the size of a softball. I'd love to watch you try to throw a softball down range and try to hit it because it'll never happen. If you really can hit something that small reliably while it's moving erratically then you sir should be a IDPA world champion.
 
Like I said earlier. If you hit the head and not the brain, in my opinion it will be more likely to stop a target than just a lung shot.

In a self defense scenario the target attacking you will very unlikely be bobing his head up and down side to side like he is in boxing match.

He will probably be keeping his head stable as he tries to shot you.
 
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