The magic one shot stop

[Super-Dave]

The topic of this thread is the magic one shot stop.

If you believe that you can reliably make a majic one shot stop on a target by shooting them in the chest than there is nothing more for us to discuss.

I on the other hand do not believe you can reliably make a majic on shot stop on a target by hiting them in the chest. I do however believe you have much better chances of a majic one shot stop by hitting them in the head.

I guess my logic is totally flawed and that I do not seem to understand that if someone is shot in the chest they will instantly go down.

 

[ScottRiqui]

Like I said earlier. If you hit the head and not the brain, in my opinion it will be more likely to stop a target than just a lung shot.

Once again, I disagree with your premises. Think about a head shot that misses the brain/spinal cord. You're talking about either a glancing shot off the skull, hitting an ear, or tearing away a part of his cheek and maybe some teeth.

How is that preferable to a solid hit in the chest?

In a self defense scenario the target attacking you will very unlikely be bobing his head up and down side to side like he is in boxing match.

He will probably be keeping his head stable as he tries to shot you.

And what are you basing this on? Most people will flinch/turn/duck when they see a pistol coming up at their head.

Once again, you're trying to reduce this to a problem where you're not moving, your target isn't moving relative to you, and you can control the muzzle of your gun to within one degree of "spot on" even with a hard-core adrenaline rush. It just ain't happening.

Have you stopped to consider *at all* why your suggestion flies in the face of the instruction given to soldiers, law-enforcement officers, and students in any reputable self-defense course?

 

[ScottRiqui]

I guess my logic is totally flawed and that I do not seem to understand that if someone is shot in the chest they will instantly go down.

No one is saying that the victim will instantly "go down" with any chest hit, but your initial assumption is flawed (claiming that without a CNS hit, you only achieve "incapacitation" once the victim has had time to lose consciousness or die.)

And I'm sorry, but ask anyone with any experience, and they'll tell you the same thing we are - your estimates of what people should and shouldn't be able to hit in an SD scenario are completely out to lunch. If you want to try to solve the problem by putting more ammo downrange at the target, that will certainly improve your odds, but it's still no guarantee, and God only knows what you'll hit behind the target.

 

[orionengnr]

If you believe that you can reliably make a majic one shot stop on a target by shooting them in the chest than there is nothing more for us to discuss.

You have been given some pretty solid advice from some fairly knowledgeable people. The fact that you consistently disregard it speaks volumes.

Do whatever you wish, but in the absence of any compelling evidence, you aren't making many converts.

Most of us don't believe in "magic", let alone "majic"...whatever that is.

Or most of all, one-shot stops. If we did, we'd carry derringers.

 

[JohnKSa]

If you cant hit a 7" target either moving or stationary at 5 yards or less; then you do not need to be using a pistol.

First of all, the head has a good bit of area that can be damaged without causing incapacitation. It's only hitting the brain and spinal cord that will cause a reliable, rapid stop. So the actual target is smaller than 7".

Second. How much work have you done shooting a moving target the size of a human brain at 5 yards? It's easy to say it's easy. In practice it's not quite as easy as you might think. Even with a target moving in a predictable fashion it can be a challenge. Heads don't move predictably, especially when they're trying not to be shot.

Finally, getting shot at has a definite negative effect on marksmanship. There are numerous instances of shootouts taking place at point blank range with NO hits at all. Not even hits to the body.

He will probably be keeping his head stable as he tries to shot you.

Not in the videos of actual shootouts that I've seen. People are generally FAR more concerned with NOT getting shot then in shooting their assailant.

If you believe that you can reliably make a majic one shot stop on a target by shooting them in the chest than there is nothing more for us to discuss.

This is a logical fallacy called a strawman argument. A strawman argument is when one debater creates a weak argument and then attacks it. The fallacy is that the created argument, the strawman, isn't what the other debater is actually saying.

No one is saying that a chest shot will cause an instant one shot stop. What experts DO say is that aiming for the center of the largest visible part of your assailant gives you the best chance for surviving a gunfight.

What I am trying to say is if you really want the majic one stop shot your best chances are for a head shot.

Again, this totally neglects the reality that most one shot stops are NOT due to actual incapacitation but are rather due to the person being shot giving up. In other words, actually making a hit tends to provide your best chance for getting a rapid stop.

If it comes down to a situation where you actually have to incapacitate someone with gunfire then it's a different story entirely. A good CNS shot may be your only option at that point.

Now I know people will say "what if the bullet grazes the head?" Keep firing till the target is down!

Unfortunately that's not always possible unless you have a lot of ammunition. Guns do get shot empty. I've seen people shoot a gun dry trying to hit a stationary head-sized target at relatively short distances on a standard range with no one shooting at them to raise the stakes and put the pressure on.

So you can't always just keep firing until the target is down. Reality, in the form of an empty gun, may ruin your strategy.

 

[Chesster]

All my SD time on the range has been shooting cheapie 9" paper plates. The few times I've had to pull a gun for SD, that paper plate center of the chest popped into my head. It's a reflex condition now and after nearly 40 years, I'm to old to change my philosophy. The main issue in SD, have a reliable gun, loaded and hit what you are aiming for. Let God do the rest and all the worrying about it.

 

[GM1967]

Super-Dave, you keep saying "7 inch target at 5 yards".

Between the size of the brain, and the curvature of the skull that might deflect a bullet, I think the target in the head is more like a 4 inch circle. While I know that at 7 yards shooting at the range and taking my time I can put a bullet in a one inch circle (such as a man's eye socket), I am less confident that I can put a bullet in a 4 inch circle under combat conditions against a possibly moving target shooting back at me. I am however confident that I can put a bullet in an 8-12 inch circle, representing the heart-lung region of the thorax.

That's why in most circumstances I'd shoot for the thorax. And don't forget that all those missed shots you are taking at a man's head are going to go somewhere, possibly into an innocent bystander.

I do agree in theory that you are more likely to get a one-shot stop (or one-shot kill) if you hit that 4 inch circle of the target's brain...but I don't think it's the way to go. It's an "all or nothing"....whereas if you shoot for the center mass, you are more likely to get some shots that aren't automatically instant stoppers, but may well stop the target from shock and the "oh my god I've been shot I'm gonna die!" factor.

As for the guy with the knife....shoot him two or three times in the chest as he charges, then hit him with a side kick or use other unarmed combat tactics. He'll be at a slight disadvantage in hand to hand combat, due to all that bleeding. And if you don't have a gun, most chairs do make very good weapon/shields against a knife if you have one available.

Save the headshots for a circumstance that really requires it....like a man who's only exposing his head, or a man standing still with a hostage, head exposed

 

[joneb]

Most of the time I carry a 5 shot .38spl snub nose, we have always called these belly guns and for good reason. If you shoot someone in that 6" circle below the bellybutton it will take the fight out of just about anyone.

 

[BikerRN]

I'd strongly suggest investing in some training, your current strategy is likely to get you killed.

I concur.

I won't even go so far as to say this has been an interesting thread, but there has certainly been some interesting points discussed by people far more knowledgable than myself.

As I read this thread, and the back and forth, it reminded me of the old saying about leading a horse to water, sigh. I will leave this thread with one little thought:

Given that I am responsible for every round fired out of my gun, and where they end up, would it make sense to aim at the largest target available to me? The torso is usually larger than the head. There is a time for head shots, but also a time for pelvic shots, which hasn't really been touched on here.

I've seen the "Shoot to kill" statement, but that is not my goal. My one and only goal is to STOP the threat so that I can go home to my family. If it takes a pelvic, chest or head shot, that's what it takes. I want to stop the threat with the least number of rounds possible, therefore I want to aim at the largest target available to me that offers the best chance of stopping the threat. If you are rushing me with a knife I hope like heck I don't just stand there, as that would be foolish. Also, it would not be inconceiveable of me to aim for your pelvis at such a time either.

Situations are dynamic and change rapidly. It is rarely like the square range, and accuracy is diminished under stress. Go shoot a match if you don't believe that. Also, you need to be aware of your backstop. In a crowd, if the aggresor is close, aiming for the pelvis will most often put the bullet on a downward trajectory, being less dangerous to innocents around you.

Biker

 

[IRONPONY]

firing to the center of mass for me.

 

[ZeSpectre]

I think JohnKSa pretty much covered it when he said...

* Heads are small.
* Heads move around a lot.
* Heads are armored and have a rounded surface which helps deflect rounds, even rifle rounds.

Now I understand what Super-Dave is saying with his idea that a headshot has a very high probability to create a "one-shot-stop" scenario and in terms of locations to cause the most trauma he's probably right.

However

Having participated in a little "force-on-force" training, and watched a lot more take place, I'm pretty sure that the reality in most self-defense situations is that you'd be so busy and things would be so dynamic, that you'd be happy just to catch a piece of the badguy someplace, anyplace, to slow him/her down and get 'em off of you so I think it's pretty unlikely that most situation would leave you the choice of a headshot.

If you could get a headshot...well hell then take it! But the best plan is probably that you'd also take any other shot that came up as well.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

You started off sounding okay.

Now most of us all agree that there are only 2 reliable ways to quickly incapacitate.

1) The targets bleeds too much and passes out/dies.

2) The target sustains a central nervous system shot and can no longer function.

and you said...

Now option number 2 is indeed the most reliable and quickest method for incapacitating the target. Now I know there are stories out there of humans and animals being shot through the brain and are still alive. This can happen but the likely hood is really really low. I figure if a target is shot in the brain and does not die, God dont want them dead yet and no mater what you do wont matter.

which was okay except maybe for your interpretation God's desires which was a bit hokey. Then you said stuff like...

If you look at the size of the heart and spinal cord. It seems you have a much bigger target by going for the head.

and

So in summary if you really want that "majic one shot stop", I belive you should forget thorax shots and go for the head.

Okay, what part of the spinal cord is the head? Please tell me.

Simply put, the anatomy expressed is atrocious. First, you are equating the head with being the same thing as the spinal cord and because the head is larger than the heart, the spinal cord is larger than the heart and hence the head is the obvious target.

The head is not part of the spinal cord. JohnKSa touched on this last evening, but I am not sure you have a clear distinction of the parts of anatomy based on your descriptions.

Your stated goals equate the head and the spinal cord as being one in the same. As they aren't, how much of the spinal cord is in the head such that if you shoot the head you might hit the spinal cord? Very little of the spinal cord is in the head, and that is only if you include the brain stem as a structure that is part of the spinal cord. If you want to shoot the spinal cord in the head, your target is very small indeed.

The brain stem is not the spinal cord. It is structurally continuous with it, but not actually the same structure.

Since the spinal cord isn't the head, just what are you shooting in the head? As you shooting face, mouth, teeth, jaw, nose, an eye, ears, or hair? These are all valid head shots that can have absolutely nothing to do with the spinal cord, brain stem, or brain. You might damage these non-vital structures, but lots of people get them damaged and continue to fight despite God's desire. You see, being shot in non-vital areas of the human anatomy is very unlikely to produce physiological stops, which is what you are talking about. You have to hit the vital structures. You might try aiming at some non-vital structures on the outside to get at internal vital structures, but you can't equate them as one in the same.

You are mixing very generalized with very specific anatomical words and equating them as the same. When was the last time you heard a doctor refer to a brain injury as a spinal cord injury? Have you ever head of the frontal lobe of the spinal cord being damaged by a gun shot?

What you are talking about is a central nervous system shot. That is in no way the same thing as a head shot. Equating the two as a factual statement on how to effect a physiological stop is erroneous.

 

[THORN74]

i dont think this ahs been brought up yet, maybe i missed it. But studies have shown that most shooters will hesitate firing on a head target, especially a forward facing head target. the human face the is strongest identifier of who and what we are, it can be difficult for some to use that feature as a target.

center mass/torso is a larger, more imobile target when compared to the head. Its unnessicarry to aim a s specific organ in the torso as with anything larger than a .22 will do signifgant damage to anything contained in the ribcage.


as for humans surviving gunshot wounds to the head, they are few and far between, but my psyce proffessor in college was a practicing psyciatrist. he would tell the story of a bipolar patient who fired a 1911 from under his own chin into his brain durring an attempted suicide. the short version, the bullet passed perfectly between the 2 hemispheres of his brain and out the top of his head. he lived and the resulting minimal damage actually cured him. the prof did actually reccomend this as a valid treatment , but rather just another freak example of the toughness of the human body

 

[Super-Dave]

I suppose my theory could be tested as follows:

Have two guys wearing protective gear for simunitions.

Tell one guy that he is only to take head shots. Tell the other guy nothing about the head shots and have shot where he wants.

Have them both line up 5 yards from each other and have several draws.

Do this in an open field with no objects for concealment or protection.

Count the number of rounds fired and where the hits occured.

Video tape everything

I am absolutely certain that both shooters will be shot on every draw. Now the shooter shot in the head will sustain more than likely an immediate incapacitating hit. The other shooter shot in the chest will have atleast an 80% survival rate based on statistics from real shootin scenarios.

 

[ZeSpectre]

I am absolutely certain that both shooters will be shot on every draw.

Super-Dave,
There are too many recorded instances of people emptying a 6/10/15 round gun at someone closer than 5 yards and completely missing so I suspect that your theory is going to be in for a rough ride.

 

[jhenry]

Nation wide, the average hit ratio, that is a hit anywhere, by LEO's is around 20 percent. That is 2 out of 10 rounds hitting the bad guy at all. The rest "over penetrate" the air surrounding the bad guy and head off down range mad as a hornet. Just something to keep in mind when discussing purposeful head shots in a gunfight.

 

[Super-Dave]

In my test scenario they both keep shooting till the pistols are empty. (standard 15 round pistol)

That is why I am pretty certain both will be shot on every draw.

 

[ClayInTx]

SuperDave,
I hope you never have to fire your gun in self defense, and hope that if you do that your local DA doesn’t surf the gun forums. Even if you don’t make that “magic” head shot.

I don’t know if this is typical but I was instructed in my CHL class to never “shoot to kill”. You shoot to stop.

It’s not required that what’s on your mind has to come out your mouth.

Now, to stick with your original comments:
Yes, a hit to the brain is the surest “magic one shot stop”. No argument from me on that.

Doing it:
The problem I see is hitting that grapefruit size area under the stress of an attack.

Trying for it:
RIP

 

[Old Grump]

To high up on the frontal bone and the bullet can glance off, to far below the nasal bone and it might not be a stopping shot. You have a target less than 3" high and 5" wide that is moving, you are distracted by the shooters gun and you are suffering from tunnel vision, and loss of hand eye coordination plus fighting the wobble from your increased heart rate. That makes a head shot viable only if you are really lucky or you train really hard.

2 hits guaranteed to drop your opponent, a hit to the central nervous system, difficult in the best of situations or a shot to a knee cap. You only thought a hit to the head was hard.

Center of mass is still the best bet for the majority of people in the majority of cases and head shots for those who really train hard at making them and have been through that kind of party before. Till you have been in that situation you don't have a clue as to how you will react so your ability to shoot 2" groups at a stationary target at 25 yards will mean nothing unless you were born with ice water in your veins. Most of us weren't.

My personal choice of SD weapon only carries 6 bullets so I have to be a little more careful. If I am on my feet at home my revolver is exchanged for a shotgun where I do practice head and groin shots. Not nice but if I am defending family and home I have no intention of being nice about it. On paper targets I do pin point targets like shooting hand wrist or right eyebrow but I also admit to showing off because I can. In real life all my bullets are going into the thorax and shame on me if I miss. I know what adrenaline does to you, even to us old dinosaurs.

 

[natjohnb]

Have them both line up 5 yards from each other and have several draws.

Do this in an open field with no objects for concealment or protection.

You mean like in the Westerns on T.V.?

I think I will continue to practice shooting for COM.