The Castle Doctrine

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s for the Joe Horn case, I'm not sure how I feel. He may have been legally in the right according to Texas law, but morally? He chose his circumstances, and he escalated the situation himself. What started as a non-violent property crime became a double homicide. I don't see anything to do with self-defense in that situation, and therefore I find it irrelevant to the matter of "Castle Doctrine."

Nice to see someone actually "gets it"

Ya see Tom, there is a subset of folks around who use a sort of "circular logic" when it comes to property crimes as they relate to the Castle Laws.

It usually goes like this : If I see someone stealing the radio out of my car, I will call 911 to send LE, but then I'm gonna go confront the thief. If he threatens me in any way, I will fire...as my life was threatened, and therefore justified. They will then claim they did not shoot to protect property, but to defend themselves. :rolleyes:

You would be amazed at how many times we have debated that very point on these forums, and how many people feel that if you don't agree with that logic, you are somehow diminished, or have the mentality of a "victim".

I have said it before, and I will say it again, a firearm is life insurance not property insurance.

Originally Posted by OldMarksman
It would be interesting to know what the Grand Jury might have done absent the police officer's testimony that Horn had been threatened.

My guess is a nice set of orange PJ's and a very long prison sentence.
 
You would be amazed at how many times we have debated that very point on these forums, and how many people feel that if you don't agree with that logic, you are somehow diminished, or have the mentality of a "victim".
I'd rather be labeled a "victim" than lose years of my life and the right to own firearms.

I find it highly unlikely that I will ever be in a position in which I am morally justified in taking a human life over property. Property can be replaced.

I've had to testify in a case where a citizen's arrest over an automobile break-in went wrong. Trust me, it's not a position any of us would want to be in.
 
At the risk of sounding inflammatory...

If I weren't carrying, and I saw somebody trying to break into my truck, I'd confront him.

I don't see any difference in the scenario if I happen to be carrying.

His reaction to being caught would determine what happened next.

Would I shoot him for breaking into the truck? No. Would I even draw on him for breaking into the truck? No. He'd only find out about the weapon if he chose to escalate things, instead of departing.

To me, the difference between that and Outcast's "circular logic" argument is that I wouldn't be attempting a citizen's arrest, just a "get away from my property" confrontation, which I'm legally allowed to do, so long as I don't use deadly force for that purpose.

If the thief decides to then launch a physical attack, he's changed the game to his own detriment.

Even then, he might not find out about the weapon; he might just hit the ground really, really hard.

At the risk of sounding really inflammatory, though, I think society took a turn for the worse when lawmakers decided that property rights didn't really mean the right to defend property. While I will comply with the law, and while I would really prefer not to ever shoot anybody, I do think that I should have the legal right to use deadly force against thieves and burglars.

It would cut down on such crime in a big way.
 
At the risk of sounding really inflammatory, though, I think society took a turn for the worse when lawmakers decided that property rights didn't really mean the right to defend property.
People do generally have the right to defend property, short of using deadly force. That prohibition goes back for many centuries (a long, time ago, lawmakers in our states adopted legal doctrine that had been set forth by learned judges a long, long, long time ago). There have been exceptions in a few jurisdictions and during a few interludes involving territorial provisional law. Anti-gunners would also describe the "castle doctrine" as giving the right to use deadly force to protect property, but I really don't think that has ever been the intent. In most states the "castle doctrine" is codified in laws covering defense of persons.

While I will comply with the law, and while I would really prefer not to ever shoot anybody, I do think that I should have the legal right to use deadly force against thieves and burglars.
There are important distinctions among theft, burglary, and robbery in most jurisdictions. One has to know the law.

If I weren't carrying, and I saw somebody trying to break into my truck, I'd confront him. I don't see any difference in the scenario if I happen to be carrying. His reaction to being caught would determine what happened next.
Not for me. It's not so much a legal or ethical thing. I just don't like the idea of being ambushed, shot in a crossfire, or stabbed or slashed and ending up dead or maimed. Not worth the risk for me.

On TV and in the movies (someone recently added, "the ones you watch on the screen and the ones you play in your mind"), the protagonist always prevails. It doesn't always turn out that way in real life.
 
OldMarksman said:
People do generally have the right to defend property, short of using deadly force. That prohibition goes back for many centuries (a long, time ago, lawmakers in our states adopted legal doctrine that had been set forth by learned judges a long, long, long time ago)....
From the 1915 abridgment of Blackstone's 18th century Commentaries on the Common Law of England (page 289) --

http://books.google.com/books?id=jA...esult&resnum=8&ct=result#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Force may be used in self defense, in which "...if the party himself, or any of these his relations, be forcibly attacked in his person or property, it is lawful for him to repel force by force..." with the caveat that, "...care must be taken that the resistance does not exceed the bounds of mere defense and prevention, for then the defender would himself become an aggressor..."

However, note that under what Blackstone refers to as reprisal, once property is taken, it may be recovered or retained only if, "...it be not in a riotous manner, or attended with a breach of the peace....." Blackstone notes, "...the public peace is a superior consideration to any one man's private property ; and as, if individuals were once allowed to use private force as a remedy for private injuries, all social justice must cease, the strong would give law to the weak, and every man would revert to a state of nature; for these reasons it is provided that this natural right of recaption shall never be exerted where such exertion must occasion strife and bodily contention, or endanger the peace of society..."
 
MLeake said:
If I weren't carrying, and I saw somebody trying to break into my truck, I'd confront him. I don't see any difference in the scenario if I happen to be carrying.
His reaction to being caught would determine what happened next.

I just watched a video reenactment that Joe Horn did for the Pasadena Police back in 2007. He saw the guys from his window and had he yelled at them they probably would have run away. He was at that time in no physical danger, but I think he wanted them caught rather than just scaring them off.

That is the difference about confrontation. You see someboady doing something bad and you are armed and holler at them that the police are on the way and they will probably beat feet. If they come at you then you have justification to blast them.

Joe Horn was acting like a cop and wanted to capture those guys rather than just stop the burglary. That is the difference.
 
There's a big difference between the situation Mleake's discussing and what Joe Horn did. One is self-defense, the other is naked vigilantism.

If I see someone breaking into my car, I can yell, "hey! Don't scratch the bling!" If he then threatens me, then yes, I have a right to defend myself.

On the other hand, if I see someone running away with my hubcaps, I do not have the right to resort to deadly force to recover aforementioned bling. While I've been deprived of precious bling, I am not being threatened.

It's one thing to be presented with trouble. It's an altogether different thing to go looking for it, which is what Mr. Horn did. At no point was Mr. Horn deprived of the ability to walk away or avoid danger.
 
I am confused, first this; (emphasis mine)

It's one thing to be presented with trouble. It's an altogether different thing to go looking for it, which is what Mr. Horn did. At no point was Mr. Horn deprived of the ability to walk away or avoid danger.

Then this;

If I see someone breaking into my car, I can yell, "hey! Don't scratch the bling!" If he then threatens me, then yes, I have a right to defend myself.

Right there you have the "circular logic" to which I referred earlier. If you escalate the situation by the act of intervening in the burglary, and are then confronted, and "defend " Yourself, You have just used lethal force to protect your ride, you cannot have it both ways. If you fire, you have done so to defend "bling" Not yourself. If you are interested in defending "yourself" you would not confront. (period)

That is the difference about confrontation. You see someboady doing something bad and you are armed and holler at them that the police are on the way and they will probably beat feet. If they come at you then you have justification to blast them.

Again, the same "logic". Had you called 911, taken a defensive position inside your home, and waited, you would have done the most you could do, if not;

Joe Horn was acting like a cop and wanted to capture those guys rather than just stop the burglary. That is the difference.

Exactly!

Would I shoot him for breaking into the truck? No. Would I even draw on him for breaking into the truck? No. He'd only find out about the weapon if he chose to escalate things, instead of departing.

How bizarre, as you stated earlier;

If I weren't carrying, and I saw somebody trying to break into my truck, I'd confront him.

I don't see any difference in the scenario if I happen to be carrying.

His reaction to being caught would determine what happened next.

Where did the "weapon" come from ?

And if his reaction dictates what happens next, what do you do if he/they are armed?

Still feel comfortable in "confronting him/them? (you have no way to tell how many there are)

I'd rather be labeled a "victim" than lose years of my life and the right to own firearms.

I find it highly unlikely that I will ever be in a position in which I am morally justified in taking a human life over property. Property can be replaced.

+1 Sir.
 
OuTcAsT said:
Again, the same "logic". Had you called 911, taken a defensive position inside your home, and waited, you would have done the most you could do,

Quite right, I meant to say "hollered at them from a position of safety and called 911" which might include distance as well as being in my own home. Therefore, if they came after me it would be without the escalation/provocation you spoke of. They would just want to hurt me.
 
Right there you have the "circular logic" to which I referred earlier. If you escalate the situation by the act of intervening in the burglary, and are then confronted, and "defend " Yourself, You have just used lethal force to protect your ride, you cannot have it both ways. If you fire, you have done so to defend "bling" Not yourself. If you are interested in defending "yourself" you would not confront. (period)
I will defend unto the death the honor of my spinning hubcaps, sir.

Kidding. Kidding!

You put me in a bit of a corner, or perhaps I did, with that analogy. There are differences in situation, though.

Horn was a vigilante (hopefully not a naked one) who injected himself in a situation that wasn't any of his business. He did so with the intention of dishing out "justice," an act which led to the perfectly avoidable deaths of two other people.

It occurs to me that it wasn't even about property at all.

In my case, I'd pictured walking to my precious Charlene in a parking lot and finding someone defacing her. It's natural to say, "hey, what gives?" That's no justification for the guy to get violent. If things get hinky, I have (and should likely take) the option of walking away.

The person violating my car also has the option of doing so. Were he to decide to add assault to his list of crimes, and I could not walk away, then my personal safety would be in danger. Force may be justified.

Have I used force to defend my property? No. Though property was involved, I would be responding to a threat on life or limb.

The fact that a property crime was present at the beginning of the altercation is the only real similarity between this situation and Mr. Horn's.

Now, if I'd simply started shooting when I first saw the transgression upon my whip, I'd be guilty of whatever the Man saw fit to charge me with.

...and on that note, I'm all out of hip slang for the night:)
 
I'll go one further, Tom Servo

There are graduations of response in between the extremes of "go in with weapon drawn and/or blazing" and "call 911 and sit in the house while your property disappears before your eyes." Verbal challenges, and non-lethal physical force are potential options, and perfectly legal in many situations.

If I see somebody attempting to break into my vehicle, or perhaps take a horse from the pasture, I am fully within my rights to physically separate him from my property. I may not be justified in using a weapon, but I will not break any laws if I lay hands on him, assuming he has not desisted in his criminal behavior. In many states, I'd be fully legally justified in physically ejecting him from my property, or separating him from my vehicle, using less than lethal means.

Odds are, in such a case, I will lay hands on him, immediately after placing the 911 call, or while somebody else places the 911 call.

Note: In a case involving the livestock, I'm out in the sticks, and don't expect the timeliest of police responses due to distance from town. The horses range in current market value from $5k to six figures; even without considering the potential seriousness of the loss, I wouldn't let anybody take one of the inexpensive, untrained ones. (I can't picture my significant other allowing that, either.) For that matter, I wouldn't let somebody take our dog, and she's got one bad hip and one cockeyed ear, and has no market value whatever. (The dog really is my significant other's baby... I'd choose to fight Chuck Liddell over having to tell her that I let somebody take the dog without trying to stop them.)

So, like I said, confrontation would be in the cards, but not deadly force - at least, not by design. Regular physical force would be a legally available option, and one that I'm actually pretty good at applying - wrestling, kenpo, and a whole lot of aikido training afford a lot of options for non-lethal response in my case, and I'm not a small guy.

Outcast, as far as where would the weapon come from, not sure why you are confused. I usually CCW. However, in the days before I CCW'ed, I would have confronted a burglar on my property or breaking into my vehicle. These days, the fact that I normally CCW would not change my philosophy on that. However, I would not make the person aware of the weapon unless he made it necessary by actually threatening me. (Stating that I have a weapon could be construed as "the threat of deadly force," which may not be legally justified based on the initial circumstance.)

If the guy decides not to leave, and reaches for a weapon, or has friends come out of hiding - creating discrepancy of force, then SD law does come into play on my behalf.

If you don't see the difference, which Tom Servo did a good job of explaining, then we are simply going to disagree on the matter.
 
Outcast, as far as where would the weapon come from, not sure why you are confused.

Because of the contradictory statements;

If I weren't carrying, and I saw somebody trying to break into my truck, I'd confront him.

But a moment later;

His reaction to being caught would determine what happened next.

Would I shoot him for breaking into the truck? No. Would I even draw on him for breaking into the truck? No. He'd only find out about the weapon if he chose to escalate things, instead of departing.

Clearer now?

If I see somebody attempting to break into my vehicle, or perhaps take a horse from the pasture, I am fully within my rights to physically separate him from my property. I may not be justified in using a weapon, but I will not break any laws if I lay hands on him, assuming he has not desisted in his criminal behavior. In many states, I'd be fully legally justified in physically ejecting him from my property, or separating him from my vehicle, using less than lethal means.

No doubt, you are correct. I however, own nothing that I would take such a risk for, I don't attach myself to inanimate objects, I have insurance that will replace those things, as for animals, same thing, they are just property and, replaceable ( though I recognize that some folk attach sentimental value to some pets)

If the guy decides not to leave, and reaches for a weapon, or has friends come out of hiding - creating discrepancy of force, then SD law does come into play on my behalf.

My point being, If you are not there, then the discrepancy does not exist.

then we are simply going to disagree on the matter.

Fair enough, just different philosophies on the matter.

The person violating my car also has the option of doing so. Were he to decide to add assault to his list of crimes, and I could not walk away, then my personal safety would be in danger. Force may be justified.

Have I used force to defend my property?

Yup, because;

If things get hinky, I have (and should likely take) the option of walking away.

IMO anything else is;

a vigilante
He did so with the intention of dishing out "justice,"
 
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Outcast...

Defense of one's property when the theft is in commission is not vigilanteism. Going after the thief after the fact would be vigilanteism. You may want to look up your definitions.

Meanwhile, you seem to have a problem with conditional statements and verb tenses.

I was, very clearly I think since others seem to have grasped the point, stating that in the days when I didn't CCW, I would have confronted a thief, and that my current habit of CCW wouldn't change my overall behavior in that regard.

Having a gun won't cause me to do things that I wouldn't have done if I didn't have a gun, but it also won't stop me from doing things I would have done if I didn't have a gun.

So, to make things perfectly clear since you appear to be deliberately obstinate in your interpretations:

Now, when I do CCW, I would still confront the thief, but without initially drawing a weapon. The weapon would still be on me, in its usual, concealed position, but it would not be drawn unless the thief's subsequent actions made it both necessary and legally justified.

Are we clear?

As far as "If I am not there, then the discrepancy doesn't exist," I have every right to be on my property. I have every right to be in the vicinity of my property. I have every right to confront anybody who is actively trying to take my property. In most places, I have every right to use non-lethal force in the defense of said property.

Would I pursue a guy who had just hot-wired and driven off in my truck? No, that's what the cops and OnStar are for, and besides the pursuit would effectively be vigilanteism and unlawful in most states. Would I try to stop the guy if I caught him in the act? Definitely. Would attempting to stop him at that point be vigilanteism or unlawful in most states? No.

So, we have a philosophical difference on whether we would exercise our legal rights, and on whether it is ever justified to risk violence in defense of material things. We also have a philosophical difference on the relative worth of pets. Just realize there are a LOT of people who will react very, very badly to anything untoward being done to one of their animals; I am pretty sure most of my friends and almost all of my family fall into that category.

Then again, I've pulled a dog from a burning house - which I suspect you wouldn't advise somebody doing just to protect "property".
 
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...in the days when I didn't CCW, I would have confronted a thief, and ... my current habit of CCW wouldn't change my overall behavior in that regard.

Having a gun won't cause me to do things that I wouldn't have done if I didn't have a gun, but it also won't stop me from doing things I would have done if I didn't have a gun.

Now, when I do CCW, I would still confront the thief, but without initially drawing a weapon. The weapon would still be on me, in its usual, concealed position, but it would not be drawn unless the thief's subsequent actions made it both necessary and legally justified.

This has drifted pretty far from the original question, but it is a worthwhile discussion.

It might be worth running a simple risk and opportunity analysis here.

First, the opportunities. The best one could hope for is to prevent the theft of the item, which might well be recovered anyway. On top of that, one might gain some sense of accomplishment, and maybe do something that would result in keeping the perp off the streets for a short time.

Risks? Well, there's the chance of being killed or maimed by the perp or his accomplices, or shot by a well meaning citizen with a gun and perhaps a lot of adrenalin and/or testosterone, engaged and possibly bruised up a bit by a policeman who has been summoned by others.

And while one may be supremely confident that his use of deadly force, should it happen, would be completely justified by the "subsequent actions" of the thief, what unfolds may not fit that neat picture, at least in the eyes of others. Forensic evidence, the thief's story, eyewitness or earwitness accounts based on what others thought transpired, etc. may portray a picture of mutual combat or a shooting that was not in fact necessary, and therefore not justified, because it had been avoidable. In every case I have been directly or indirectly familiar with, those for whom legal and regulatory compliance issues have gone bad were supremely confident from the outset that they would be able to explain their actions to the satisfaction of all. It sometimes just doesn't work out that way.

Sure, one may well ultimately prevail, but at what cost? Lawyers, investigators, and expert witnesses don't work for nothing, and should things end up in trial court or maybe in an appeal or two, hold on! Compare that potential cost with the maximum possible upside. "#DIV/0!" won't come up, but it won't be much better. Also, I'm not sure that everyone appreciates just how long the whole thing might drag on. I personally do not relish the idea of getting hurt or making case law at my expense if I can avoid it.

In most SD training, the best advice is to stay in a position of safety unless it is otherwise necessary to ensure the safety of others. I think that advice applies well here.
 
Old Marksman...

Your analysis is accurate, and good.

On a related note, safety can be taken to an extreme. As a former squadron CO of mine once said, "Safety is NOT our first priority. If it were, we would never fly, we'd just leave the aircraft in the barn. Mission accomplishment is our number one priority, and we will achieve that through professionalism and dedication to duty. Safety will be a byproduct of professionalism."

I've had to make decisions on just how low I could let the fuel burn down, before heading back to shore from an overwater SAR. This involved such questions as "Are there any closer airfields than the one I had planned? If a nearer field is available, what is the weather supposed to be there? Is there at least one instrument approach I can shoot, if the weather is not Visual Meteorological Conditions? How much longer can I hang out here, if I shut down an engine?" I frequently have had to make decisions based on weather, or equipment status, or crew fatigue and distraction levels, vs importance of the mission.

Some missions, you burn down to the minimum before heading for a field. Some missions, you may consider continuing after an engine or electrical problem. Others, you go home, or you land at the nearest suitable field.

IE, a lot of my life has been tied up with risk analysis. More often than not, I've been in a position where some risk is the norm.

This doesn't mean that I don't do risk analysis, it just means that I have no expectation of absolute safety, or anything near it; I do have the ability, from many years of practice, to quickly assess a situation and decide how my personal capabilities match up.

Caveat: For training evolutions, minor supply runs, etc, the acceptable level of risk is significantly lower. Again, the benefits are not always the same, and so the risks they justify are not the same.

However, one thing to bear in mind when doing any risk/benefit analysis is that not all people place the same value on things.

You may not place much benefit on protecting livestock or a family pet, for instance, and you don't have to. I do, and it's pretty hard-wired. I'd feel much worse about letting harm come to my dog, for instance, than I would feel about kicking the crap out of some stranger who tried to abuse her.

I'd also feel pretty stupid just watching somebody take my truck. Could it be recovered? Sure. Would it be likely to be returned in good condition? Less likely. How much money would I lose, after any insurance payment was considered? Not sure.

Would I be extremely annoyed with myself for having done nothing when I had the option to take action? Yes.

That said, while it's most likely I'd confront somebody trying to take property, it's guaranteed I'd confront somebody who was trying to steal or harm one of my animals.

There is a certain value to be attached to the ability to live with oneself.
 
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All this talk of vigilantism is absurd on its face. It's also a total non sequitur. As a citizen, we each have the ABSOLUTE RIGHT to intervene if we observe a crime being committed, and to do everything possible to end it and ARREST the person(s) committing the crime(s) under the common law principle of citizen's arrest. The power of arrest is NOT the exclusive monopoly of law enforcement agencies, though it appears that several posters above are assiduously misleading others into thinking that is the case.

Joe Horn is a hero - pure and simple. He protected his neighbor's property, and his own life. The deaths of the criminals in that case, though some may find tragic (I do not), are due to their own misconduct.
 
Are we clear?

Crystal!

As I said before, you have every right to confront whomever you desire, and to whatever level you feel necessary, I just don't happen to agree, no harm, no foul.

Then again, I've pulled a dog from a burning house - which I suspect you wouldn't advise somebody doing just to protect "property"

You are correct, I grew up on a cattle and pig farm, animals hold no sentimental value for me, a dog is simply a dog. (If I could get him out I would, but if not, would lose no sleep over it.

I think OldMarksman summed my position up nicely;

In most SD training, the best advice is to stay in a position of safety unless it is otherwise necessary to ensure the safety of others. I think that advice applies well here.
 
The power of arrest is NOT the exclusive monopoly of law enforcement agencies, though it appears that several posters above are assiduously misleading others into thinking that is the case.
Technically, you are correct. But civilians do not have some of the powers granted to law enforcement, nor do we have an army of lawyers standing by to protect us from the possible liability issues that may arise.

Joe Horn is a hero - pure and simple. He protected his neighbor's property, and his own life. The deaths of the criminals in that case, though some may find tragic (I do not), are due to their own misconduct.
This could be construed to say that the criminals in some way deserved to die. Sorry, but there is absolutely no way I can agree.
 
csmsss said:
...As a citizen, we each have the ABSOLUTE RIGHT to intervene if we observe a crime being committed, and to do everything possible to end it and ARREST the person(s) committing the crime(s) under the common law principle of citizen's arrest....
An absolute right? Not by any means.

At common law, the power of a private citizen to effect a lawful arrest was limited to a felony being committed in his presence, or when a felony has in fact been committed whether or not in his presence and the arrester has reasonable ground (probable cause) to believe the person he arrests has committed it; or a misdemeanor is being committed in the presence or view of the arrester which amounts to a breach of the peace.

The power of arrest has been further circumscribed by statute or case law in various U. S. jurisdictions. In Massachusetts, for example, while a private citizen may arrests someone for a felony, if the accused is acquitted, he can sue the arrester for false arrest. Utah prohibits the use of lethal force to effect a citizens arrest.

So any right to intervene is not by any means absolute, and one would be well advised to be thoroughly familiar with the applicable law wherever he may be.
 
I'd feel much worse about letting harm come to my dog, for instance, than I would feel about kicking the crap out of some stranger who tried to abuse her.
On that we agree.

I'd also feel pretty stupid just watching somebody take my truck.
However, it may well be the smart thing to do. Would I feel frustrated, irritated, annoyed, and angry? Yes indeed. But I would choose to not do anything stupid. Let 'em take it, I'll stay out of harm's way, away from civil liability, and out of the reach of the long arm of the law. It's a truck, for heaven's sake!

And if push should come to shoot---you say it was self defense and justified, they say it was to defend property and unlawful. Not worth it, IMHO.
 
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