The Beretta M9: XM9 trials!!! True account!!!

Marshals issued the Ruger GP100 and duty ammo was the 110/125 JHP 357 Mag.

Witness Protection guys got SIGs P225s, may be 228s now?

Most carry autos, the USP compact seems very popular w them now.
 
The SIG-Sauer P22 6wasthe best pistol in the M9 trials, nut for some reason the Air Firce wanted the Beretta. The Air Force slipped Beretta SIG-Sauer's bid data so that Beretta could submit a revised artifically low revised bid. Beretta won on the basis that its revised bid was the lowest price. The SIG-Sauer was the better pistol. Note that in the subsequent M11 competition which was not rigged SIG-Sauer won handily.
 
PeterGunn and BrokenArrow:

Great bits of reporting! Youse guys are right on target.

Doesn't the Beretta have the dual designation M9/M10? I thought the second trials/contract resulted in the Beretta also being designated as the M10? Hence the Sig P228 being the M11.

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/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
 
I'm just and old reformed Sawmill worker from Dixie what got an "educaton" at one uh them thar big city liberal arts colleges up North, but I do declare that from the numbers detailed on Mr. Broken Arrow's previous post, that ole' M9 has done a pretty good job if I do say so myself. Kinda funny how that high dollar HK solution to a stupid question don't cut the mustard ain't it?

I hated em' until I picked one up and fired it about two hundred times. Now I don't plan on crawlin' through a half mile of sand or a Louisiana Bayou for that matter with a shoulder holster in tow so I guess I'll be alright.

As for some of the peckerwoods who are claiming Beretta had insider info, belly on up and give us the chapter and verse on the verified documentation you are holding. I had my chops busted recently for lack of proof and whats good for the goose is great for the gander.

Y'all have ah goodun nawh, ya hee-ah!

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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."


[This message has been edited by Will Beararms (edited January 13, 2000).]
 
This is really a silly debate over which specops carry which guns, as if it matters or justifies which gun we carry. But, I have 'worked' with a number of the specops groups and with SEALs and I can tell you in no uncertain terms that many SEALs do carry Glocks. They don't all carry Glocks, and not all of the time, but a LOT of them do carry Glocks a lot of the time.
Even on their meager income, they would rather go out and buy a Glock with their own money than carry their issue sidearm. They respect the Glock that much. (Many also carry other non-issue sidearms, and as always, they each have their own personal preferences).
If you don't believe me, I don't care, but I thought I would weigh in. Being that this is firsthand information, it seems more valuable than the heresay and conjecture presented by some above.

[This message has been edited by jdthaddeus (edited January 13, 2000).]
 
Gee guys, lighten-up here! We all got to stick together here against our "common Enemy". Lets don't fight among ourselves. But for the record and my $.02 worth---I've met a number of seals throughout the years, and none of them even carried side arms on or off duty. It would be too hard for them to hold on to them with them flipper things they have for hands. They sure can ballance those balls on their noses though! :)

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Proud,dues paying,member of the "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy"
 
Hey...this thread is fun! Do y'all notice the vehement responses (pro & con) everytime the M9 Beretta is brought up on TFL? But, like Topkick said, let's keep it friendly...

My very first post (fall 99) was about 92FS/M9 mechanical problems or failures and BrokenArrow was kind enough to reply with technical data from the JSAAP trials. Hey, BrokenArrow, I would still like to get a website or reference for the data (to be used by my unit while we try to fix our M9 problems). I think BrokenArrow and PeterGunn are pretty much on the money about most of the history behind the pistol trials...That said, here's my take on a some of the points brought up after reading 65 replies to the original post:
1. BrokenArrow: Re: Slide Fiasco/"Pistols were shot long after locking blocks broke and should have been replaced". You probably meant cracked instead of broke, 'cause once the lugs on the locking block let go (the most common ocurrence), the M9 is locked up in battery and requires handtools and a shop to disassemble and repair. It will no longer fire at this point due to the slide being locked in place by broken off metal.
2. Incidentally, the US Army Special Forces Military Freefall School is located at Yuma, AZ and is attended by anyone learning to skydive on Uncle Sam's nickel (including SEALs).
3. Carry of personally owned firearms is not proscribed by UCMJ regulation per se. In each theater, major command, or base, Commanders sign policy statements or direct orders prohibiting carry or use. When a service member is caught, he/she is usually charged with violating a direct order. Are these orders violated? You bet. Not often, and not in every location, but whenever the threat level overcomes fear of punishment. Places like Bosnia are very difficult, because the military sets up controlled acess points to our "Peacekeeping" operations complete with metal detectors, baggage x-ray, searches, etc.. We commute to missions like international airline passengers...when the s**t hits the fan, nobody cares nearly as much...Remember the regulation-bound Quartermaster issuing ammo in the film "Zulu Dawn"?
4. Why do we like to produce the M9 in the US (as well as any other weapon we use)? Well, besides economic/political considerations, its nice to control production inside your own borders during time of war, rather than relying on UPS to deliver the goods across the North Atlantic.
5. The HK MK 23 ("USSOCOM Pistol"): Is purpose designed for offensive use by surgical strike units and recon teams. It is not designed as a general purpose sidearm to replace the M9. It is big and heavy and just about needs a bipod once you strap on all the bells and whistles. It is a CQC and sentry removal weapon. Wear a Desert Eagle around on your hip for days on end (along with 80 lbs of other crap)...you'll get the idea.
5. Many states allow US military ID card holders to purchase handguns in their state of assignment (Colorado is one of these).
6. Joey: We got our first shipment of M9s in 1994 and have had nothing but breakages. Have replaced all of them. Admittedly, a lesser number of pistols assigned to HQ staff and support troops have held up for obvious reasons...
7. High Pressure 9mm: I am personally aware of 2 M9 slide separations using standard US Army 9mm ball. In both cases, the "overtravel" flange on the left side of the hammer pin held and prevented the slide from launching off of the rails into the firer's face...both pistols were made into interesting 2 lb. paperweights (since they were no longer safe to repair or fire). Although the Finns once issued extremely high pressure loads for the Soumi SMG and there is some variance among national ball ammo production, I have not yet had the pleasure of firing the elusive "high-pressure NATO ball 9mm". The same ammo that breaks M9s seemed to work just fine with, for instance, the BundesWehr P1 (the old Walther P-38) as well as the P-35 (High Power). On the other hand, I've no doubt that 147 grain sub-sonic broke a lot of early M9s.
8. US Army Special Forces are issued and carry (most of the time) the M9. As soon as funding is budgeted (competing against a host of other competing needs), we will replace the M9s with something else...The bottom line is the bottom line. SEALS (at least in my theater) carry SIGs. Just to be sure, I walked over to their platoon bay and checked...yep...SIGs.
The 92FS won the trials and that's that. Is it better than most? Absolutely. Are there some better designs out there. Absolutely. Will the M9 equip our forces for over 80 years? Figure the odds...BTW, a very good read concerning US military small arms procurement/development is titled "Misfire" by (I forgot author but will recheck library or Amazon.com) and details the amazing incompetence, intransigence, and outright criminality of US rifle and machinegun adoption by our armories and "test boards" from Revolutionary War times until the end of the Vietnam Era. A history of wrong weapons, too little, too late, too much, as well as corrupted bidding and evaluation. It will keep you awake at nights and in a cold sweat.
 
Chindo 18Z:

With the demise of the Soviet Sattellite States, would the CZ 75 be a viable spec ops pistol?

I hate to render a he said/she said story but a spec op friend of mine stated he preferred a 1911 variant due to the fact that he has seen the breech block designs like Glock and Sig seize up after shooting several hundred rounds at one sitting during training. Per him, the block and barrel get so hot that they expand and the slide jams up when traveling over the large sqaured off block portion of the barrel.

He admits that the 1911 is not perfect, but it can be abused and still work with ball ammo. Is he pulling my leg?



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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
 
Does anyone else think that it's rather silly that the US military wound up with two very different pistols (the M9 and M11) which can't share any parts and have very different control layouts? I imagine that a soldier trained on the M9 but issued the M11 would take a while to stop trying to unlock the slide with the decocking lever!

With the benefit of hindsight, wouldn't it have made sense to have tested for a "package deal", where both the M9 and M11 would have come from the same manufacturer? Or if the military really wanted the M9 to be a "do-all" handgun, shouldn't they have specified that it be a little smaller?
 
Originally posted by Will Beararms:
Chindo 18Z:

With the demise of the Soviet Sattellite States, would the CZ 75 be a viable spec ops pistol?

I hate to render a he said/she said story but a spec op friend of mine stated he preferred a 1911 variant due to the fact that he has seen the breech block designs like Glock and Sig seize up after shooting several hundred rounds at one sitting during training. Per him, the block and barrel get so hot that they expand and the slide jams up when traveling over the large sqaured off block portion of the barrel.

He admits that the 1911 is not perfect, but it can be abused and still work with ball ammo. Is he pulling my leg?

WillBearArms:
1. Re: CZ75...Yes. BTW, I own one. Its a pretty nice pistol for not a lot of money and easily the equal of Beretta, Sig, Walther, HK, etc. The CZ85 is also good...
2. Re: Expanding Breechblocks...Its possible. I haven't seen it or heard of it, but a coupla hundred rounds fired fast enough could do the trick (especially if all the rounds were pre-loaded in high cap mags and then fired rapidly). I have fired a lot of rounds at one sitting side-by-side with guys who carry SIGs and never saw a problem. FWIW, I have never had a problem with any Glock (17,19,23,22).
3. Re: 1911 variants...How could you go wrong (assuming use of mil-spec tolerances). Was,Is, and Always Will Be a fine (and combat proven) weapon. If you look closely at some Star Trek episodes you will note that some Enterprise Security Crewmembers carry 1911s instead of phasers...just kidding...but its not implausible.
Just my opinion...
Click to expand...
 
Chindo:

Thanks for your time. I was knocked over when I asked my friend whether he preferred the Glock, the Sig or the HK. To my surprise he adamantly defended the 1911 in conditons where mud and sand are prevailent or any environment for that matter.

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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
 
Where to start? :)

The SIG was not the "best" pistol in the M9 trials, though some liked it best, and still do. The Beretta was twice as reliable as the SIG for example, and the frames lasted longer. If cracked frames between 5000 and 10,000 rounds had counted (they did not), the SIG would have failed the M9 trials. Both met the minimum requirements though, and after the "funny bidness", Beretta had the contract. In the M10 trials, the Beretta did as well as the SIG, but SIG kept their low bid this time; we didn't need any new bases in Italy in 92. :)

A block will crack (not break). If you have half a brain, you will notice during cleaning. Jams are a good tip off. If you continue to fire w a cracked block long enough, and the block doesn't break, the slide will. If the slide cracked, and you didn't notice it, keep putting blocks in it, eventually that slide will break, maybe even with a good block in it. Since this rarely happens under the 5000 round contract specified service life, Uncle Sam doesn't have much to bitch about? Shoulda asked for more? But if they had, the SIG woulda failed (cracked frames between 5-10K remember?), and we still woulda got the Beretta, since none broke during the trials. Life's a beach? :)

At "normal usage rates" that 5000 rounds is good for 40 yrs BTW (though some do that in a week or two; I have). Since they bought 450,000 of them, the M9 will be around for a little while? :)

Ammo? The problem was some of the good old GI ball was way over pressure, some wasn't, and the Army didn't have a clue which was which (still might not? :)). They were sure it wasn't the ammo, until they found out their testing procedure for ammo was wrong. oops. Since some guns broke at 2000 rounds, some over 20,000, and some fired over 75,000 without a problem, something is/was screwy somewhere, don't ya think? <G>

I've been issued the M9, M11, M15 (38 revolver), M1911A1. Have even used BHPS, CZs and P7s. I like the M9 and M11 the best of the bunch (the M11 over the M9 BTW). Saw the most jams with the M1911A1, and the most broken minor parts too (bushings, links, firing pin stops, etc). We see what we want to see? :)

Have no idea why the M9 doesn't have a dual designation (it doesn't), or the SIG wasn't called the M10. Ask some admin/contract weenie. :)

The M9 has had fewer broken slides than the Glock 40/45s have had kBs BTW. I carried one on and off for 11 yrs, saw millions of rounds total go through thousands of pistols and never saw a slide break. Have seen several blown up Glocks though. I don't mean case failures, I mean ruptured "Banana Split" barrels/chambers, cracked frames/slides. Still trust both of of them too. :)
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>>>>---->


[This message has been edited by BrokenArrow (edited January 14, 2000).]
 
It's really cool for me to see how long this thread has survived. It was my original intent to inspire discussion based on the facts of the XM9 trials. It is great to see someone like Broken Arrow jump in and provide additional information...Thanks Very Much!!!

Just for the record, I do not own a beretta nor do I have need for one since I own a 226. So i don't want anyone to think this is a Beretta lover's thread, cause it ain't.

I know I have learned alot and appreciate all the information provided. And, while I do not choose my guns based on others choices, I cannot afford to do the testing on sidearms like the FBI, military, LEOAs, SEALs, et al. So, seeing what the outcomes are and then accepting them with a grain of salt is incorporated into my selection.

As far as the secops stuff goes, I think it obvious to think that these guys are going to carry whatever is going to fulfill the mission the best. If they don't want to look like Uncle Sam, they may carry Glock, Ruger, or Smith. But for the most part, I believe the Beretta and SIG (M9/M11) fill the bill.

Happy New Year to all!!!

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"By His stripes we are healed..."

PeterGunn
 
My parting shot:

The ammo and the SIGs.

Normal specs for the M882 ammo is 38.5K psi. SAAMI specs for +P is up to 37.5K, so mil-spec is what some would call +P+. Some NATO 9mm ammo is loaded as high as 43K psi, some is considerably lower.

Early lots of M882 ammo were messed up (I heard as much as 11 million rounds). Pressures sometimes exceeded 55K psi which exceeds proof load level. Army thought it was fine. They were wrong. This was not discovered until most of it had been fired through M9s.

Could be part of the reason why the M9s are breaking less blocks and slides than they were (they are)? Why some slides broke at 2K then, and some go over 90K now?

Lots of Berettas have fired lots of NATO ammo without problems. Not many (any?) BHPs, CZs, P7s, Walthers, etc fired a lot of the messed up M882 ammo.

OTOH, some of that stuff probably went through the SEALs 226s too, without any major problems that I ever heard of. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that I didn't hear about it. :)

A SIG w a cracked slide and/or frame still works reliably BTW. An M9 w a cracked block (or broken slide) does not. :)

I think the DoD didn't really "need" a compact pistol, but did want some SIGs, and the M11 was the way to get it? Might have intended to phase in the M11, and phase out the M9, but the budget (or somebody?) got in the way? :)

Today, I would write the RFP to require a polymer frame and DAO trigger that pulled no more than 6 pounds. :)
 
Lots of Berettas have fired lots of NATO ammo without problems. Not many (any?) BHPs, CZs, P7s, Walthers, etc fired a lot of the messed up M882 ammo.

I can tell you that CZ75s (cannot speak for CZ75Bs) are extremely tough pistols. In fact some military forces use them precisely because they reliably feed hot subgun ammo. Their all steel construction, slide inside frame, and tight barrel lockup make very robust. In fact I haven't been able to find one verifiable case where a CZ75's frame or slide cracked due to excessive service.

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So many pistols, so little money.

[This message has been edited by Tecolote (edited January 15, 2000).]
 
1911 mil spec pistols are notoriously reliable under combat, and non combat conditions when using FMJ rounds. It is only when people started tightening them up and using non FMJs that problems occured. These are almost non-existant in quality 1911s today.

The CZ 75 is ranked amoungst the finest pistols ever produced. The only thing wrong with them over the years has been the political orientation of their country of origin. Since the fall of communism 40 countries have adopted them for their police and military forces. An explosion of success not seen since the Hi Power in the thirties.

Erik
 
Quick comment though on specops people's handgun choices:

Those specops people may carry a wide variety in small arms, but something to remember is just because they carry it doesn't mean it's the biggest/baddest/best.
There may be dozens of reasons why Steve the Studly SEAL Swimmer carries Brand X handgun:

-It was issued to him
-It wasn't issued to him but it was on sale in the local gunshop
-It was issued because it's "sterile" (not readily traceable to US involvement)
-His chief said this brand works great
-It makes a louder BANG than Brand Y (like it or not, many people make gun decisions based on how much "WOW" they feel when they shoot it!)
-It's easy to conceal
-It fits in his web gear holster
-They had ammo in this caliber available in the unit armory

Our SEAL may have tried it to death on the practice range, too. He may have also just got a handgun as an afterthought, with more attention paid to his longarm.

Edmund
 
I agree the CZ is a great gun. Slide isn't much to grab on to if you need to, but you don't need to very often.

Load up a few thousand rounds of ammo at 55K+ psi and let me know how it does. :)

Mike >>>>----->
 
About carrying personnel weapons in the military...

When I was in the service and in South East Asia, I personally knew an Army SFC up in Hue, who carried a Browning HiPower and a small .32 revolver in an inside the shirt shoulder holster. I kew an infantry Major who carried a Thompson submachine gun that was not army issue. I knew a Navy Lt. who carried a S&W 5" Model 10. Another Navy JG I knew carried a S&W Model 19. I saw him use it to shoot a rabid dog in Hue. Another Navy Lt. carried a Swedish K that he took off of an enlisted man who got it from the body of an adversary killed in a river ambush. (Chicken S**t officer)
On my boat the small arms issue for the crew of fourteen sailors was 2-1911 .45 acp, 2-.308 caliber M-1 Garands, and 2-Thompson SMGs. The rest of the crew manned crew served weapons. We had two twin 20mm mounts. Each mount required a minimum of three sailors to keep it running. I was the port gunner so I was not issued a firearm when the boat got in trouble. I bartered with some indigenous troops for an M-2 carbine. This was my personal firearm. I wasn't supposed to have it. The Craft Master and everyone else aboard knew I had it. When ever we got back to DaNang, I would put it in the Chief's locker so no officers saw it.
I don't believe the .30 carbine round is an effective stopper, but with the M-2 on auto, I could put a whole bunch of holes in you real fast.
I was always told by authorities that personally owned firearms were forbidden in the service. There were a few who disobeyed during trying times for whatever reason.

Neil Casper
 
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