The Beretta M9: XM9 trials!!! True account!!!

Tecolote, you think that just because a SEAL or SF guy can't discuss what he did on ops, that he can't tell you what personal sidearm he chose or if he got to choose? If you think that, frankly, you're the one that's full of crap. SEALs and other SOF types are human too...hell, I know that for a fact, as the Professor of Military Science at my school's ROTC department was in SF in Panama and he was the biggest sack of crap I ever met.
 
Thanks for telling me I'm full of it without even knowing me. I hope you have a nice day too.

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So many pistols, so little money.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I can explain that as people violating policy, your CO's knowledge and acceptance doesn't make it right. Because there's a stop sign doesn't mean people will stop.[/quote]

OK, cite the regulation that makes what you say policy.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I was wholly unaware that onboard Naval warships individuals could choose to store their weapons and ammo. I imagine it must hell on earth trying to discipline someone when everybody is armed.[/quote]

Certainly they can. Especialy since many of us lived onboard. They are locked up in the armory along with all the other smallarms, and issued out when needed. One of my duties onboard was serving on the ships self defense force, and we were designated as boarding team as well to search shipping bound for the gulf and the balkan penninsula. For that reason we were issued weapons, and I choose to carry mine, and the CO had no problem with it, especialy since I used my personal weapon in competition.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You reinforce my point, you aren't able to discuss special operations. Precisely why to me it's odd when I hear that so and so SEAL carried a Glock in country.[/quote]

What "special operations" have I discussed? I have stated that SEAL team 1 and EOD were embarked on my ship during Desert Storm. That, sir, is not classified information. Neither is the fact that my ship performed intradiction operations in the Adriatic and Red Seas.

BB
 
Oh yeah? Well... I have a "Seal" friend that carries a Jennings22 with pearl grips.

He's so tough he got a flu shot in the arm and only cried a little bit. :)

so THERE!

-Frank (the spank)
 
Tecolote: you don't really think that a guy's going to crawl out of the water, in a combat zone, and strip his weapon down to give it a nice coating of oil that will only attract more dirt?

Is an official memoradum, on team leterhead, the only thing that will convince you? Well, that will be next to impossible to find, one way or another.
 
I apologize to all if the tone of my posts made it seem as if I was calling into question anyone's integrity.

Yes, SIG Sauers will rust and yes Glocks resist corrosion better. No small reason why the Dutch Royal Marines issue the P226 and the Glock 17 for water borne operations. My claim has to do with the fact that rust results from consistent failure to maintain weapons. Thus it is my firm belief that individuals that live or die by their weapons are more prone to keep them clean and lubed than a person who isn't in their predicament. When I traveled in some Laitn American hot spots I noticed that soldiers in their down time would give their weapons a thorough cleaning. If this is different in the US military I apologize for my ignorance.

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So many pistols, so little money.
 
Well, what started as an attempt to correct some misspoken facts has turned out to be an arguement on who knows more SEALs, and how well they are farmiliar with their (sf) weapons and tactics.

There have been posts that I truly appreciate because they have expanded my knowledge. So to Dan, Joey, RikWriter, Edmund, and Tecolote...a hearty thank you for filling my gray matter with what my wife calls "useless knowledge", but what I consider a life's passion. Now all we have to do is stop try to compare how long our's is compared to the other guy's...if you know what I mean. Let's try to keep it aboveboard.

The reason I believe it is interesting that SEALs are issued the 226 (I am a 226 owner and lover so watch out), is that i know that unless they are Stainless Steel or have about 4 cotes of that K-stuff (which in my opinion is no where near the quality of NP3, Birdsong's Black-T, Tenifer (spelling?). Corrosion is simply an issue with a STOCK 226. Can we know for sure that they are stock or have they been modified for special service...one never knows...

Again thanks to all and keep the info coming...and maybelets get some more Beretta info too!!!



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"By His stripes we are healed..."

PeterGunn


[This message has been edited by PeterGunn (edited January 12, 2000).]
 
Tecolote-

I just read the thread you posted, and I see what you are talking about. The difference in situations was this: I had my CO's approval to carry my personal weapon, and all the talk on that other thread is about someone sneaking around. In the Nav, the CO is the Captain, and on his ship he's THE MAN. If things go down wrong he'll be the one catching crap about it. In the Nav our small arms consisted of very, very, VERY old .45's that had seen much better days, newer (but old none the less) M14's that were in pretty bad shape as well, and 12 gauge pump shotguns. It's not like the Army where you could probably rely on your issue weapon. My CO had no qualms with me carrying my Browning and a 12 gauge, it made us both feel better :)

Peter-

Gee, didn't you write this?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If I had a nickle for everybody who said they had friends who were SEALs or sold XXX to SEALs I think I would be a very wealthy man. The OFFICIAL reports state that the majority of individuals in the teams carry Sig 226's. That's not ME saying it, It is the official Navy report on the subject. So, if you want to flame somebody, FLAME THE NAVY. By the way, I didn't think there were many Naval stations capable of supporting the SEALs in Arizona, but you MAY have moved since the early 90s.[/quote]

So maybe YOU were the one that started all the "arguement on who knows more SEALs, and how well they are farmiliar with their (sf) weapons and tactics", and I find it humorous that now that it ain't going your way you want to "stop try[ing] to compare how long our's is compared to the other guy's...if you know what I mean"... :D

Regards-
BB


[This message has been edited by BB (edited January 12, 2000).]
 
Acording to the UCMJ it is illegal to use any weapon (firearm) not issued by the military. Anybody who has ever carried a privately owned weapon has violated this law and subject to Court Martial.

If a Commander gives you permission to carry/use your own weapon he/she is also guily of a crime and subject to UCMJ action, to include a Court Marshall. If you follow the orders of your commander and they violate the UCMJ both you and your commander will be held accountable. Just becuse he told you does not relieve you of your responsibility to obey only lawfull orders.

Under NO circumstance should anybody ever carry a POW with or without a comanders aproval, unless you really want to be court marshalled.
 
I wasn't going to post on this topic again but here goes.

Coming from someone who did carry a personally owned weapon against regs, believe me it happens, alot. In my role as a KC-130 Flight Engineer it was quite easy to discreetly carry my own weapon. In fact, as I posted before it was not uncommon for enlisted flight crews to do so. Sort of a "don't ask, don't tell" policy with a positive spin.

Yes our butts would be in a sling if we were caught. We made the choice to take the risk because we were often sent to places that we could possibly need a weapon without being issued one. It is similar to those who carry concealed where it is illeagle. It was a risk we were willing to take.

We did have an instance in which a pilot was caught with his Ruger P-85 on deployment in Venezuela. It sure did not positively affect his career.

Telecote-
I'm not sure if you were questioning the believability of my post. I was just relating what I had seen while performing my assigned duties (transporting and providing aviation support),in support of special ops teams.

That's all I'm gonna say bout that...

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Dan

Si vis pacem para bellum!

Check me out at:
<A HREF="http://www.mindspring.com/~susdan/interest.htm" TARGET=_blank>

www.mindspring.com/~susdan/interest.htm</A>
www.mindspring.com/~susdan/GlocksnGoodies.htm
 
The SEALs' 9mm ammo was testes at 70,000 psi? What a bunch of morons! (not the seals, but the ammo makers & administrators making the decisions). Gee, what mission did they think the SEALs were trying to do - kill attacking four-legged beasts with their sidearms?

Petergunn, the bad part is that guys are not comparing how long theirs is compared to the next guy, but comparing how long their SEAL friend's is, compared to the other's SEAL friend. :) Just kidding, guys. I believe everyone here is sincere and tellling the truth, certainly the "truth" they recall/understand. I don't see any type of deception going on.

[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited January 12, 2000).]
 
The 70K Psi ammo is their subgun ammo. They were using the same ammo as their subguns use in their pistols. The Beretta blew up, they switched to the Sig 226.
 
Tecolote, if you wish to take what I said as as personal attack, that is up to you. I did notice you didn't address the point, however, and hid behind hurt feelings.
 
RikWriter,

It seemed to me as a personal attack and I was pretending to be hurt. "Can't all just get along?" I get enough heat from my vehemently anti-gun coworkers.

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So many pistols, so little money.
 
A lot of stuff that the Teams and other SF types do is against the UCMJ and the Geneva convention. That's the point though, isn't it? Unconventional.
 
Tecolote, fine, I am sorry if I was harsh with you. However, would you mind addressing the point? The point was, even if a SEAL or SF soldier can't divulge what he did while overseas, there is nothing that would keep him from answering the question "Do you choose your own sidearms or carry what is issued to you?" I have asked SF soldiers that question point blank, and received the answers I already indicated, that it was dependant on the mission, but sometimes yes, they could choose their own.
 
BB,
I'm not going to get involved in a pissing contest with you. If this makes you mad...too bad!!! I have never, never, never in this thread claimed to have knowledge on the personal sidearms of special forces personel, SEALs, fry cooks, or your local cub scout troup. Things are niether going "my way", or "against my way". If you read the very first posting on this thread, it is a DOCUMENTED account of the XM9 trials, what lead up to them, and what has transpired as a result. I DO NOT know a SEAL personally, nor do I claim to. But there are individuals who claim to have knowledge where it is pertaining to the subject at hand. The only sources I have at my disposal are the printed, DOCUMENTED sources available on the net, and those indivduals on TFL who are kind enough to share with me.

I did not start any debates on the SEAL subject, I just found it interesting that once the discussion begins, the SEAL groupies come flying out of the woodwork, which is fine, but that was not the intent of the thread.

Now, if you read all the posts in chronological order, you will notice I did not start the "I know more than you" stuff. But you have sure contributed your share.

Again thanks to all for all the great info!!!
 
PeterGunn - It is my understanding that the ultimate decision maker was Beretta's willingness to build a factory in the U.S. for the production of government contract arms. SIG Sauer was never willing to move production of the P226 to the U.S., and still have not, giving Beretta the extra point to win the contract. SIG and Beretta came out even in testing, and the cost per unit wasn't the biggest issue.

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May your lead always hit center mass and your brass always land in your range bag.

~Blades~
 
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