The Beretta M9: XM9 trials!!! True account!!!

Blades, Your understanding??? What is this based on??? Something you heard from a gunshop commando?? If you read my account, which really isn't mine, it's the actual account from military sources, you will read that cost was the biggest factor. You must take into account that IMPORTING the SIGS would have driven up the cost!!! It also would slow down production heavily!!! If you have been following the gun industry, SIG is have a hard time filling their contracts now as it is, let alone the m9 contract. They have been busting hump trying to fill the M11 orders that civilian sales were slowed considerably.

But you are correct that SIG and Beretta both past the trials. I wish people would read the whole thread before opening up their yappers. It would save on repeating things 100 times. It has already been stated and verified by several sources that the SIG and Beretta both passed and it was the pending negotiations that killed any deal with SIG, at that time. Since then, the SIG 228 (M11) has been adopted.

But if you would like to theorize as opposed to going by the official record, I guess you could surmise that the building of the factory did play a factor. How much, I have no idea...anything else???


[This message has been edited by PeterGunn (edited January 13, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by PeterGunn (edited January 13, 2000).]
 
Hey Peter-

Mad? Me? :D
Naw...I wouldnt let anything petty as this internet thingy make me mad. I appreciate your contribution. Lets just chill out with the condesending attitude. Seems like in every post you've made you have this attitude like your Moses on high bringing us lowly pions the holy (offically verified) scripture. Give it a rest already. And as for the SEAL thing, I was just pointing out my experiences after YOU posted the original comment bashing anyone with first hand knowledge of specops. I mean really, are you that jealous of those of us that served? It really aint that big a deal. I mean if you dont want the info, than keep your head down in the sand and ignore it. After all, it's not the OFFICIAL word, as passed down from the oh-so-accurate military spin doctors. You know, the guys that say Gulf War Syndrome doesnt exist, that 99% of the smart bombs dropped on target, and that the patriot missle system worked like a charm ;)

Have a good day,
BB
 
RikWriter,

OK, so I should've paid more attention in my writing classes. What I clearly did was to confuse two points, one that those involved in special ops don't go around discussing them and the other the issue of personal sidearms. One of course doesn't negate the other. There, point addressed.

I'm not sure if SIG Sauer was unwilling to move production or not. Their agreement with the M11 required that it not bear German proofs. I think the second contract stipulated that pistols be assembled here in the US. Consequently there are now German made and US assembled P228s. The 40SW and 357SIG P226 has a US made slide and German frame. The P229 of course has had this setup from the get go.

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So many pistols, so little money.

[This message has been edited by Tecolote (edited January 13, 2000).]
 
BB, Patton did not carry a pearl handled .45 Colt. And I quote, "only a pimp from a cheap New Orleans whorehouse would carry a pearl handled pistol". They were carved ivory. Georgey would be turning over in his grave now.
 
I am just glad someone corrected the post about patton's pistol grips. I for dont know any Navy Seals. But I do know a bunch of old regular army guy's my dad being one of them. If he heard any one mention Patton and pearl hands he would lose it. :)
 
This thread originally was about the M9, so heres my real world take on this subject: The Beretta is probably a good weapon for law enforcement, or the civilian shooter, but from my experiences, it SUCKS in real, harsh field enviroments. The flared ejection port design will swallow everything, to include the kitchen sink, and gunk up the internals. My military issued holster was set up in the ranger shoulder holster configuration, which had a thumbstrap, not a flap. Low crawl half a mile and you've got a very dirty paperweight. Even had to fieldstrip the magazines daily cause the sand would get down in there and the rounds wouldnt feed reliably. From my personal experiences, I dont care too much for the Beretta.
As to carrying personal sidearms into combat, when I deployed to the gulf, I could have gotten away with sneaking my personally owned S&W 659 9mm, but didnt think I could get away with it at the time, so it stayed in the armory at my home base. Looking back, it probably would have served me at least as well as the Beretta did, probably better. I think the Sig is a much better weapon.
As to SEALS carrying glocks: Maybe some do. The only active duty personnel I saw with a glock in the gulf was a Navy pilot when I was stuck at an entry control point. All weapons had to be cleared before entering, and I had to clear it for him.....More may have carried them, but I have no 1st hand knowledge of that. We were usually aways away from others. FWIW

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"To die as a warrior means to have crossed swords and either won or lost without any consideration for winning or loosing. There is just not enough time and generally not enough strength in the resolve of any man to do otherwise"-Miyamoto Musashi
 
For the record:

Patton carried 1 Colt SAA .45 revolver with ivory grips and 1 smith and wesson 357 magnum revolver with ivory grips.. he also went to bed with a carbine on occasion. (source: War as I Knew It, General George S. Patton Jr.)

On seals:

I had a beer at McP's once. ;) (the strand, coronado island, near the naval amphibious warfare center. Sometimes you can drive the strand and watch troops storm burned out heliopters, planes, tanks, and other obstacles. Its a pretty popular spot for the girlfriends/wives of seals in training to hang out.) I have no idea what they carry now.. but I recall two sources on the heavier M9 slide. (marcinko and gunrag writer) Phrobis M9 Navy Contract slides were available for sale in the shotgun news as of last year.

As of Korea, US officers were still legally carrying personal sidearms in the field (based on the lt. wieght commander given to me by a former officer still sealed in cosmoline by an ordinance officer in korea) and I've ready many accounts of US troops in vietnam getting "gifts from home" in the pre GCA of 68 days.

I've heard that "don't ask don't tell" firearms policy from 2 other air force loadmasters. One retired and one active duty.

We've all got our sources of anecdotal information, some good some not. ;)

We just need to remeber to be nice when we express our opinions and be careful about quoting hearsay as truth.

Dr.Rob
 
Oh God...please help all those(BB), who have issues and cannot handle the fact that we are all here to contribute and learn. And Lord, please give the patience to accept those who cannot handle a frank discussion. Amen.

I am not jealous of anyboy or anything. It was my original desire to correct some of the bogus XM9 stuff some people were putting forth...because I have knowledge on the subject, and if you had checked my source, you wold see that on the SPECIFIC XM9 issue there ain't much to debate.

On the Special OPs issue. I have no greater respect for those who put on a uniform and defend what I love so dearly. Is the a Jealously issue...NO!!! And the statement is silly so I will give it no further attention. Now, BB you have contributed much to this thread and to my knowledge, but if you are this angry in life, why do even get out of bed in the morning????

Take care my friend.

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"By His stripes we are healed..."

PeterGunn
 
Dr.Rob: McP's is probably the best place for a civillian to collect SEAL info. Night rock portage in front of the Hotel Del Coronado is also a fun evening; lots of drunk hotel visitors standing and falling off the rock, trying to get a good look-see. Did you get a chance to eat at the Coronado Diner?
 
Dr. Rob,
Who in Shotgun News was recently selling the Phrobis slides for the 92F/S? I recall reading a review of the Phrobis slide in SWAT magazine sometime in late 1992, and it has interested me, though I had not seen a word since then about anyone selling them.
 
It's been a year or so since i saw the ad.. but as I recall it was a DIRECT sale from Phrobis (an overrun??) they were also selling a dive knife in the ad. Phrobis Dolphin logo was at the top of the ad.

Yep there is plenty of good grub at the Hotel Coronado.. lol once you get past the Maitre' D giving you the I'm sorry sir we don't have a public restroom look... wish i had spent more time in San Diego. (Brother was stationed on venerable old CV-61 USS Ranger)

Dr.Rob
 
If all of you guys care so much about what thes specops guys are carrying, why don't you all join and find out. Who cares what they are carrying, just make sure that when the time comes what you are carrying works. By the way does anyone know the official sidearm of the US Marshall Service??????? :)
 
I believe that the U.S. Marshal service still issues .38 revolvers. However, you are able to carry your own sidearm, and many agents do just that. Seen a lot of personally owned Sigs and HK USP.
 
Hmm, the official sidearm of the US Marshals?
Let me see tough, reliable, accurate....
It must be the GLIG 2217 in .437 monkey pumper (a new hot load created by GLIG) :)
 
I feel obliged to give the full story of the Glock/SEAL incident. In 92 an investigator(LEO) friend of mine called me (FFL holder) and said his son a SEAL and another SEAL friend would be home on leave in a few weeks and they both wanted to buy Glock 19s. I asked him if they were both AZ residents and he said yes. He also said they wanted extra mags and fanny packs, so I ordered everything for them. When they were in town they stopped by and picked up the guns. We chatted for a little while and they said they were stationed in Korea and could carry personal firearms. They stated that Glocks were very popular and that they wanted the fanny packs for civy clothed off base excursions. That's the full story.
 
Good job PG!

Some fine tuning...

The USAF may have got in JSAAP in 79, but they did their own pistol eval earlier in 77.
They were gonna buy Berettas for themselves. The Army saw where that would go (they got the M16 after the USAF bought some for themselves)so JSSAP was born. You can blame the 9mm and the 5.56 on the USAF. :)

Reliability? The M9 trial scores MRBF (mean rounds between failures) for the Beretta was 2000, for the SIG 1000, for the M1911A1s used as a benchmark, 450. Some other scores for ya:

Endurance testing:

S&W 459 developed frame crack between 4.5k and 5k rounds; another developed frame crack at 6.5k rounds.
SIG P226 developed frame crack at 6,523 rounds; another had a crack discovered at the end of the 7k test.
All three Beretta 92SB-F guns and all three H&K P7M13 guns made it through with no problems

Reliability testing (wet phase/dry phase):

M1911A1 control, 100%/100%.
H&K P7M13, 99%/100%.
Beretta 92SB-F, 97%/98%.
S&W Model 459, 98%/96%.
SUG P226, 98%/79%.
Walther P88 failed both tests, results were not released.

Reliability testing (salt water corrosion):

after 10 days of testing,
M1911A1 control was 99%
Beretta 92SB-F was 100%
SIG P226 was 100%
S&W 456 was 97%
H&K P7M13 was 86%.

Latest scores are over 30K MRBF for the M9, 15K for the M11 (SIG P228) and 6K for the HK Mk 23 .45 BTW.

Bids?

On 18 Sept 84 the Army determined that the SIG P226 and the Beretta 92SB-F "technically acceptable." SIG actually won the first bid and had the contract. The Army added some mags and spare parts and asked for more bids. SIG kept the same price, Beretta lowered their price. Did Beretta get some insider info leaked? Did we want cruise missile bases in Italy? Was their a connection? Prove it. :)

The slide fiasco...

The Army measured pressure wrong in early lots, and some ammo exceeded proof load levels. The SEALs were experimenting w very heavy (147-158 grain) high pressure sub sonic ammo. Pistols were shot long after locking blocks broke and should have been replaced. Beretta may have used some slides from a cancelled French contract w tellurium instead of calcium or selenium in the base metal that was too brittle. All came together and slides broke. From Army tests to slide failure:

1 -- 2/08/88; 6,007 rounds; M9
2 -- 3/10/88; 4,908 rounds; M9
3 -- 3/14/88; 17,408 rounds; 92SB-F
4 -- 3/16/88; 21,264 rounds; 92F
5 -- 3/17/88; 24,656 rounds; 92F
6 -- 3/17/88; 7,806 rounds; M9
7 -- 5/23/88; 21,942 rounds; M9
8 -- 5/26/88; 21,486 rounds; M9
9 -- 6/22/88; 23,310 rounds; M9
10 -- 7/14/88; 30,083 rounds; M9
11 -- 8/18/88; 30,545 rounds; M9
12 -- 8/25/88; 27,684 rounds; M9

You will note that the commercial version guns all went 17k+ rounds, while the three outliers at significantly less than 10k
rounds were M9s ... this supports that unusual metallurgy was involved in
some of the early production M9 guns.

Altogether, the average was 19,758 rounds before slide destruction. Remove the three outliers and the average becomes 24,264 rounds. Contract service life only specified 5000 rounds. Latest guns tested (with good mil-spec ammo)lasted 35K for frames, 75K for slides/barrels, 20K for blocks. No problem.

The SEALs spooked and wanted something right away before the problem was "fixed", bought some SIG 226s cause they were more reliable than the Glocks they tested at the time. I've done joint exercises w SEALs that carried HK USPs. They still use M1911A1s and S&W M66 357 Mag revolvers too. They have lots of toys. :)

The DOD wanted a compact pistol too. The Beretta and SIG passed again, SIG held on to the low bid this time, and the M11 (SIG P228)contract was signed in 92. In 96 the Navy/USMC bought some more M11s for pilots and investigators. They also bought about 50K more M9s BTW.

To date the DOD has bought more than 450K M9s, 100K more than the original contract called for. They must really hate them. :)


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[This message has been edited by BrokenArrow (edited January 13, 2000).]
 
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