turtlehead
New member
Have you seen Hickok45 shooting at his 80 yard gong with a 1911? You'd have time to brew a pot of coffee before stepping out of the way.
The almighty .45 acp.
- Thread starter Gunslick
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turtlehead
New member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_DpHE0h9zk
Just for fun. Skip to 11:45.
And it's a pretty good looking gun even though it's a Remington.
Just for fun. Skip to 11:45.
And it's a pretty good looking gun even though it's a Remington.
Cheapshooter
New member
Now to be fair, and compare big apples with smaller apples, the Federal Premium HST 124 gr. Ballistic gel test.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...76A3398F4F6856B2C9C476A3398F4F6856B&FORM=VIRE
I think what this "45" thread shows best is the outstanding performance of the Federal HST in either 45 acp, or 9MM.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...76A3398F4F6856B2C9C476A3398F4F6856B&FORM=VIRE
I think what this "45" thread shows best is the outstanding performance of the Federal HST in either 45 acp, or 9MM.
IMO, BINGO!
The only thing that gives me pause about the HST is 1. Impossible to find around me 2. To my knowledge it's not bonded and I've seen non-bonded bullets break apart going through windshields. As I spend a lot of time in cars that's one appeal of bonded bullets for me. However I've never seen HST specifically shot through a windshield. A Google search did show me a Federal Tactical Bonded that is supposed to be a bonded HST but I can't remember seeing it for sale anywhere, local or online. I'm sure it can be found somewhere.
Cite some statistic for this. I refuse to acknowledge that 99% of LEO agencies use 9mm because I know that is false. .40, .45, and .357 sig are still quite common. I would honestly be surprised if 9mm accounts for significantly more than half of police issue guns. LEO agencies also have another issue to factor in... having officers that are not firearms enthusiasts actually being able to qualify. 9mm is popular for a reason. It is effective, and you have a significant ammo capacity advantage. To say that logistics, and not just ammo capacity, isn't a major decision factor is intellectually dishonest. Factoring in the round used by the military is also an apples to oranges comparison, as stopping power of a pistol round ranks somewhere between the HP requirement for a maintenance vehicle and whether to reformat DA form 4856 this year or next year in priorities of the military. If we were to use this argument, you could also say that the Beretta 92 and Glock 17/19 are the only pistols that matter in the world.
I don't have a caliber preference, I use them all. But lets not spread misinformation.
I'm not sure who is saying that specifically, but I'd point out that 9mm is typically cheaper as well and often more available than calibers such as 357 SIG. That will play into logistics. When you have something that is cheaper, effective, has more capacity, and as you stated is often easier to qualify with makes it a fairly logical choice. 99% I agree is an exaggeration. But it wouldn't surprise me if it was over 50%.
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I don't disagree with this at all. There are, in fact, a good number of places/locales/agencies that are best served by 9mm. But, as always, a one-size fits all approach isn't the best approach. Just like $15.00 per hour minimum wage may be appropriate for SF Bay area, but not for rural Georgia.
My impression from the original "99% of agencies" statistic was that it is good enough a man-stopper for them, so it should be for you and .40 or 45acp has no benefit what-so-ever. I was merely pointing out that the military, LEO agencies, and even armed security companies have a much bigger picture to look at and different criteria must factor in. The individual seeking a CCW for SD doesn't have these decision factors. At any rate, if someone is comfortable with 9mm (I am), then by all means carry a 9mm. But don't say that it is proven more effective, or even just as effective, because bean counters believe it to be good enough and is the most convenient option.
IMO it is as effective as say 40SW and 45ACP, though "effective" is a pretty general term that can be measured in a number of ways. In terms of penetrating the required depth in a human body and with enough mass to deliver a debilitating blow to the CNS, lungs, heart/aorta to me it is as effective. But that doesn't address barrier penetration, total expansion, ease of suppression, the list goes on. I would also point out that there are any number of people that use 9mm that aren't under the influence of bean counters. Many of the same characteristics we listed before are still important outside of cost considerations.
This isn't me saying the 9mm is the end all be all of calibers. But I find people often put a lot of emphasis on handgun calibers when the differences are significantly less than we find among rifle calibers.
"...0% 9mm..." Separate event in bowling pin matches. So is .38/.357 revolver. In any case, pin shooting was(is) for fun(and occasionally for profit) not comparing cartridges.
And .45 ACP vs 9mm is right up there with .38 Special vs .357 Mag in the gun rag repeats.
"...I was just saying..." Any HP will do that with sufficient velocity. So will a .38 Special cast bullet. Flattens right out to about .60 cal. Still starts a huge argument. snicker.
And .45 ACP vs 9mm is right up there with .38 Special vs .357 Mag in the gun rag repeats.
"...I was just saying..." Any HP will do that with sufficient velocity. So will a .38 Special cast bullet. Flattens right out to about .60 cal. Still starts a huge argument. snicker.
On this we agree completely sir. I shoot, and carry for SD and duty, both a 9mm and a 45 depending on assignment. I am not trying to argue that 45 is dramatically more effective (reference to stopping power) than 9mm... if anything it ^might^ be marginally better in some situations. Ammo capacity is less an issue when I wear an outer vest with numerous extra mags, and when conducting higher risk operations we frequently carry 45acp Sig P227s if not rifles. For most of my assignments I carry a 9mm P290, and I feel perfectly safe with it on my side.
My only point is that I don't feel the need to try and convince others to shed their ancient ways and convert to 9mm over 45acp... or vice versa. I guess I don't understand the argument. Shoot what you want, but stop being a fanboy of one caliber... there are so many out there to enjoy.
I've seen it first hand.
Several years ago (the mid 1990's), I responded to a call of a shooting in a night club.
It started out as a fight over a wife/girlfriend, and the victim was being wheeled out on a gurney when I showed up. He was awake, and had a heck of a pot knot on his forehead. A .25ACP in the middle of the forehead at about 10 feet never even broke skin. Knocked him out cold and left a knot the size of a golf ball, but still alive and breathing none the less.
There were a ton of guys in the agency I worked for that were carrying .25ACP pistols in their body armor straps. Needless to say, there were a pile of those same caliber pistols for sale CHEEP the next day.
It was so busy making noise, it forgot it was supposed to be a gun..........
A medical school classmate of mine living in the near West Side of Chicago was shot in the back of the head at point blank range with a .25 caliber (probably) pistol by a druggie who broke into his apartment late one night looking for money while my friend was studying.
The impact knocked him out temporarily but the bullet did not penetrate the skull but shattered into scores of fragments that remained subcutaneous. When he woke up he was able to run down the stairs and escape while the dirt bag was rummaging through his dresser drawers in the adjacent room.
The impact knocked him out temporarily but the bullet did not penetrate the skull but shattered into scores of fragments that remained subcutaneous. When he woke up he was able to run down the stairs and escape while the dirt bag was rummaging through his dresser drawers in the adjacent room.
Overkill777
New member
I have to say I agree that the 45 HST is quite devastating. Seeing ballistics gel tests that leave a 1 inch diameter wound channel is quite impressive. I have a lot of confidence in my 1911.
However, the only way to consistently stop a determined attacker is a central nervous system hit. That's what has driven surge in 9mm popularity.
However, the only way to consistently stop a determined attacker is a central nervous system hit. That's what has driven surge in 9mm popularity.
boondocker385
New member
My limited experience in shooting people with a hand gun (3 times unfortunately) leads me to believe that what you shoot accurately is more important than caliber once you are talking about 9mm, 40, 10mm, 45acp for auto loaders. I don't do the small pocket size guns so recoil isn't an issue
And all animals, two or four legged, will die if they bleed out, regardless of what staff here thinks. Your job is to make the holes.
And I still get excited about the 357 and 44 mag so i get what you are saying. Shooting doesn't have to be all about killing. I started shoot for fun and still find fun in it.
And all animals, two or four legged, will die if they bleed out, regardless of what staff here thinks. Your job is to make the holes.
And I still get excited about the 357 and 44 mag so i get what you are saying. Shooting doesn't have to be all about killing. I started shoot for fun and still find fun in it.
To clarify my own points earlier, I'm not denying that people can/will bleed out. That's how many people do die from firearm wounds, deliberate or otherwise. My point is that bleeding out, depending on where the person is hit, can take quite some time. Platt in the 1986 Miami shootout was stopped by a bullet that bruised his spinal chord. However, an earlier shot had hit the main blood vessels in his right lung. In the autopsy they found 1.3 liters of blood in his chest cavity. His primary cause of death was bleed out. Unfortunately in the time he was bleeding out he was able to kill two FBI agents.
This is why there is an emphasis on getting hits to the CNS, heart/aorta, and lungs. I am realistic that in a fight for your life you might not be able to line up such a shot and you keep fighting the best you can.
I have carried and shot all 3 "popular" calibers
My EDC Started with a 40. Then I went to a 45, later I went to a 9mm
I am now back to the 40 and have sold the others
IMHO, ALL 3 are just fine with the newest bullet improvement
Center mass is the main thing that has to happen.
I have done the "wet pack" (Poor mans ballistic gel) and have seen the penetration of all three rounds.
What sold it for me, was the ability for the 40 to penetrate glass and thin steel, better than both the 9mm and the 45.
I spend a decent amount of time in a car for work, and I can imagine that there might be a SD situation where the better penetrating round might be helpful.
I do have to say though, I am personally not a fan of the 380. The BEST 380 I can find is around HALF of the energy levels of the 9mm. The 380 seems to have minimal penetration ability vs the other rounds
Energy is NOT the only thing......... But..... Energy .....AND.....Mass ........ AND Accuracy... (E + M + A = Goodness)
If there is a chance that rounds could be coming back at me, I would want the best bullet, that I could shoot well, available
Pick what you shoot best and what YOU feel comfortable with........ practice practice .... practice
Caliber is a personal choice and EVERYONE has an opinion
My EDC Started with a 40. Then I went to a 45, later I went to a 9mm
I am now back to the 40 and have sold the others
IMHO, ALL 3 are just fine with the newest bullet improvement
Center mass is the main thing that has to happen.
I have done the "wet pack" (Poor mans ballistic gel) and have seen the penetration of all three rounds.
What sold it for me, was the ability for the 40 to penetrate glass and thin steel, better than both the 9mm and the 45.
I spend a decent amount of time in a car for work, and I can imagine that there might be a SD situation where the better penetrating round might be helpful.
I do have to say though, I am personally not a fan of the 380. The BEST 380 I can find is around HALF of the energy levels of the 9mm. The 380 seems to have minimal penetration ability vs the other rounds
Energy is NOT the only thing......... But..... Energy .....AND.....Mass ........ AND Accuracy... (E + M + A = Goodness)
If there is a chance that rounds could be coming back at me, I would want the best bullet, that I could shoot well, available
Pick what you shoot best and what YOU feel comfortable with........ practice practice .... practice
Caliber is a personal choice and EVERYONE has an opinion
As was earlier implied, bleeding out is the very worst possible scenario. Good god, it may never happen if you fail to blast clean through the artery or punch liver, spleen, kidney, heart... There won't be any significant blood loss in the first minute or two. Look at all of the people who not only survive shootings, but fully recover. Think about a heart shot. You can even hit the heart, punch right through it, but it has to stop pumping and leak like a thirty year old nova before that person will be disabled. If it grazes or doesn't punch a great big hole through one of the arteries, it's not going to help you survive. A bigger round will obviously increase the flow of blood. I'm not convinced that a bigger round will without fail cause greater damage in a direct hit. I do believe that barriers or other things can really interfere with the efficiency of a smaller round.
It is my opinion that too many people actually believe that the hollow points are the answer. they count on them working. You can't count on that! Chaos, random stupid chaos is going to have the bullet bump against a falling hail stone and ruin expansion.
There are two things that can save your life if you are being shot at and the guy is actually capable of hitting you. A hit in the nervous system, brain down to spine, shoulder to hand, possibly tearing up the shoulder muscles and connective tissues. Bone structure breakage. In other words, physically disabling the part that shoots at you.
Your other hope, and this may not be any real hope, is that you stun the guy badly enough to make him yell for mamma. Not everyone is going to take a bullet to the belly and be so shocked that he forgets that he wants to kill you.
The other thing is that no matter what you hit the guy with, I'm not so sure that a.45 is going to stop a shooter any better than a 9mm when we're talking about simple fear or hurt. It won't hurt anymore than any other gun., It's not going to be noticeably louder.
There is a reason for shooting center mass. If you manage to drill straight into it, you will make a paraplegic out of the guy, dropping him straight to the concrete. Nobody will do that unless it's just plain luck. If you are within the right zone, a miss will still hit the heart, lungs, spleen, etc, and you will have at least made him bleed.
This is one of the arguments against both head shots and heart shots. Miss with a spinal shot and you are still going to have a dangerous wound. Miss with a head shot, you missed. Good job on that one, you sent a couple rounds past his noggin while he popped a couple into your torso. Miss the heart, maybe you'll get his lungs, or maybe your bullet will go to the left and you'll miss him.
It is my opinion that too many people actually believe that the hollow points are the answer. they count on them working. You can't count on that! Chaos, random stupid chaos is going to have the bullet bump against a falling hail stone and ruin expansion.
There are two things that can save your life if you are being shot at and the guy is actually capable of hitting you. A hit in the nervous system, brain down to spine, shoulder to hand, possibly tearing up the shoulder muscles and connective tissues. Bone structure breakage. In other words, physically disabling the part that shoots at you.
Your other hope, and this may not be any real hope, is that you stun the guy badly enough to make him yell for mamma. Not everyone is going to take a bullet to the belly and be so shocked that he forgets that he wants to kill you.
The other thing is that no matter what you hit the guy with, I'm not so sure that a.45 is going to stop a shooter any better than a 9mm when we're talking about simple fear or hurt. It won't hurt anymore than any other gun., It's not going to be noticeably louder.
There is a reason for shooting center mass. If you manage to drill straight into it, you will make a paraplegic out of the guy, dropping him straight to the concrete. Nobody will do that unless it's just plain luck. If you are within the right zone, a miss will still hit the heart, lungs, spleen, etc, and you will have at least made him bleed.
This is one of the arguments against both head shots and heart shots. Miss with a spinal shot and you are still going to have a dangerous wound. Miss with a head shot, you missed. Good job on that one, you sent a couple rounds past his noggin while he popped a couple into your torso. Miss the heart, maybe you'll get his lungs, or maybe your bullet will go to the left and you'll miss him.