The aftermath - realistic assessments of the situation please

IMO firearm are not the issue, morals, values and common sense have been eliminated in our public schools. Without a moral code of some type society cannot survive.
Liberals are fast to pass a law to take my rights away however they don't believe the same laws apply to them.
What is sad law makers using such grief to further there liberal agenda and certain this will be used to chew away at the second amendment.
 
So far today we've lost two Democratic senators -- Warner and Mancin
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So, I never saw the full story, but heard a news blurb that Harry Reid was pushing for a ban now. Is that true? My understanding was that the NRA supported him in a very close election and now he jumps ship?
 
So far today we've lost two Democratic senators -- Warner and Mancin -- who have been supporters of firearms rights in the past.
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I think it's really too early to worry. We haven't seen a proposed bill yet, and even then, it has to pass through a bipartisan committee.

Let's also wait and see what Warner and Mancin hear from their constituents. They may back down.

Thing is, at this point, it's all sympathetic pandering and soundbites to placate the media. When an actual bill comes up and folks have to stand and be counted, things could very well change.
 
Mental health has become the ugly stepsister to governments looking to cut expenses. Hiring security people at schools, theatres, universaties, post offices etc will cost a lot.

Australia got fed up with the types of mass killings we are discussing here and did something. The Washington Post ran a feature about that subject and the outcome was significant.

Obviously I have guns and shoot for enjoyment. If my grand babies were killed in one of these incidents I would be asking how the right to own a semiautomatic weapon, 30 round clips out the wazoo, and thousands of rounds of ammo supersedes my families right to life. This argument is probably going to get ugly. The arms manufacturers and munitions companies will fight like hell. Funny in a sad way that the rhetoric about political action on gun ownership drives sales of guns through the roof.
 
Australia did not believe that the RKBA was a fundamental right. Thus, their populace did not oppose the bans significanlty. There was some concern about sports (as we prattle about hunting) - thus they saw no impact on liberty.

It's seem to another nations that decide freedom of speech is not important and pass blasphemy laws with draconian punishments.


If you don't value the risks of gun availability as a necessary part of having a particular right then bans are not important to you.
 
Good points, Glen. Personally I have a dog in the fight because since retirement shooting is a bigger part of my life. Assault type weapons are not my gig but the fight over semiauto weapons will probably start with highly polarized stances by all sides.

Most of us can think of multiple killings where various types of guns were used. Most of the bad ones recently have involved semiautos. For the sake of all gun owners a civilized discourse will be more productive in my opinion. Lock step resistance to any impediment to unfettered availability might end up producing restrictions that none if us want to live with.

I ask again: does the right to own semiauto weapons and banana clips and thousands of rounds supersede peoples right to life? Requiring teachers to pack and participate in tactical training will drive 95% of the best teaches away. Mental health care will cost money. Who pays? We have witnessed an ugly contentious brouhaha over health care. Do most gun folk support increased spending in institutions and treatment?

Open discourse, honesty, and acceptance that we don't all get just what we want will go far in my opinion.
 
This is basically the same post I did for a local gun store's face book page discussion on the topic. It sums up my two cents worth of opinion.

I will admit that I fear the knee jerk reaction that we got after 9/11 with the legislation that was passed there. And I do not believe that changes to Gun laws will change tragedies like this one. The problem is, that too often we try to solve the symptoms of the problem instead of the problem itself. Guns and guns being used are merely a symptom of the fact that we have a woefully inadequate mental health system in this country. I know a lot of people don't agree with Obama care, and I understand your reservations and can even agree with a lot of them. But the thing we truly need to address is making Mental Health services affordable, attainable, and at the same time, as a culture remove the stigma of trying to obtain those services in the first place. If the President and/or Congress truly wants to make a difference, then (IMHO), the correct course of action for him to take, would be to work on making serious changes to the mental health services industry within the frame work they have already setup. Imagine being the parent of a child with issues that lead to that child growing up and committing mass murder. Then imagine, that there are very few resources in this country that you can depend on to help you out. Especially if you have limited income. We did away with tons of mental health institutions in the 70's, as they were deemed unconstitutional. Instead we depend on prisons for a large portion of housing mentally ill people, or we turn them out on the streets as part of the homeless population. We need to be able to identify (not in a criminal way) people that have issues like this at an early age, and get them the help they need to cope, or at least come up with humane ways of dealing with them. I certainly don't know all the answers, but I do know that if we want to end or limit these types of tragedies, that's where the discussions should be. At least that's my two cents worth.
 
Open discourse, honesty, and acceptance that we don't all get just what we want will go far in my opinion.
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I agree and have to ask;

When these new gun regs. get past and there is no reduction in the senseless mass killings what happens next???

Who's going to be held accountable then???

What inanimate object will we blame next and outlaw to make ourselves feel better in these tragic times? Maybe we can go back and start blaming DOPE again to soothe our conscience.
After all, the decades of 'the war' on illegal drugs and the laws against having/possessing illegal drugs has worked out real well hasn't it.:rolleyes:
Today, we wish 'pot' was the only drug we had to deal with.

Too, when these laws get passed and the purpose for them fails, is there anyone going to stand up and say with open discourse, honesty and acceptance that they were wrong...that mass killings have not decreased...that we've wasted many years(and lives) trying to get stricter gun laws only to find out we've failed miserably and have not treated nor found a solution to the problem???


Do we really believe our gun laws or lack thereof is the problem???

Do we really think that a person that is capable of such horror gives the first damn about whatever gun laws there are???

Do we really believe that if all guns are outlawed and an idiot is bound and determined to mass kill, that we can stop him/her???

Lastly, we are all familiar with Bob Costas getting on the air and giving us his personal anti gun views about the tragic events of the KC Chiefs player that shot his girlfriend and himself. Again, blaming guns.
The very next week, another tragic event(Costas hasn't commented on this one yet) in which an intoxicated pro ball player was driving his car with a Dallas Cowboy player as passenger, wrecked the car killing the Cowboy player.
Since driving while drinking is already illegal, should we outlaw booze...maybe cars???

As with many, I'm sick with these current unspeakable, horrid events. Am a father of a daughter in college, three grandchildren in grammar school and three getting ready to go. If you asked me if I'd rather have a LE officer at the school and trained school teachers being allowed to CCW or ban guns and stricter gun laws, my answer would be an astounding LE in schools/ trained teachers being allowed to ccw.

Stricter gun control will not stop a thing!
 
When these new gun regs. get past and there is no reduction in the senseless mass killings what happens next???
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Well, that’s an easy one to answer they just implement more bans and restrictions. Then when those don’t work they implement more until eventually no civilian owns a gun. It is their ultimate goal, so there is no reason to believe they are not strategizing toward that goal.
 
And while we have chattered about this, how many children have been killed by drunk driving? Or would that be too inconvenient to regulate vehicles?

Forgive me for being so cynical, it's been a long week, and it's only going to get longer.
 
Not only are the familiar anti-gun zealots calling for new gun control laws, i.e., Sen Dick Durbin, Mayor Bloomberg, the Brady Campaign, etc, but now we have supposedly pro-gun politicians saying we need to do so now. Today's Chicago Tribune featured a column by an individual who says he is a West Point graduate, a lifelong hunter, etc., etc, but because of what happened in Conn he believes now is the time for more gun control. Ironically the column describes where he was a victim of violence twice in his life and he expresses gladness that he was not armed at the time. I guess there are some folks who would actually prefer to be a victim than to defend themselves, but I don't feel that way and I am quite sure no one else on this forum feels this way. With conservatives pressing the President to compromise on economic matters I fear that our gun rights will be offered up as a compromise and out of fear that the people are expecting it. Never mind that a new assault weapon ban will not make a bit of difference, I think we can expect to see some fairly draconian gun control laws get passed in the near future. As an Illinois resident who just last week was jubilant about the court decision that appeared to guarantee us a right to carry in six months, I now fear that the Conn shootings will, one way or another, keep us from actually achieving that goal.
 
It's frustrating, every time it seems like the pro 2A community seems to be making headway towards showing the country that it's okay to own firearms, some crazy bastard screws everything up.

WTH is up with this year in particular, so many freaking tragic shootings, Tuscon, Colorado etc. All of these people were mentally ill, they went around the laws, the laws did NOTHING to stop them.

Sadly the ship seems to have pull hard to port and is in great danger of capsizing from what I can tell. It's hard to remain positive at this juncture.
 
All of these people were mentally ill, they went around the laws, the laws did NOTHING to stop them.
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Went around them? Not so much. Just plain broke them would be more accurate - it's not just this year.

Columbine - weapons legally purchased, illegally transferred, illegally used - and IIRC didn't they authorities give the girl who bought the rifles a pass on prosecution?

Virginia Tech - purchased through legal means, however did Cho not lie on his 4473 forms? Weapons used illegally.

Aurora - again with a lie on the 4473. Or a fault of the Federal check system (how is the maintenance of this database the fault of legal gun owners by the way?)

Now Newtown - weapons purchased legally by owner. Procured illegally by the user because he killed the owner and stole them after being denied by the very system set up to stop him.

In all of the above federal gun free zones and "no guns" corporate policies pursuant to state laws didn't do a darn thing aside from ensure that the shooters faced no resistance whatsoever.

If I got any of the details incorrect, please help me out here.

But, please, tell me more about how criminals obey laws:confused:
 
God preserve us from the life long hunter. I've said before shooting cute Bambis is irrelevant. How could you anyway?

That mantra is to fool you to thinking they are progun.

Anyway, the expanding gun culture in the USA is not about hunting.
 
Suggestion to Mental Health Issues:

  • Parents/Guardians/Relatives can register with FBI
  • Unstable, violent, or mentally ill can be flagged for no firearm purchase
  • Individual can only be removed from list by those listed above willing to accept legal prosecution for their actions.

Takes the responsibility away from health professionals who would lose the trust of those individuals needing counseling the most.
 
At minimum, there will be a huge effort to limit magazines to 10 rounds.
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I think this is the most likely. On the positive its something I can live with. My primary use for magazines and wasting copious amounts of ammo now is IDPA, which limits itself to California rules (the above), so I'm ok with that.

I would also be ok with eliminating private sales without a background check, and substantially more thorough background checks with a marked increase in mental state checking.
 
While almost anything is possible I think we'll see the same people roll out the same stupid crap they did in '94. They don't know how to do anything else. They will then stand around and pat themselves on the back and "feel good" about what they "did". Theodore Roosevelt put it best - "What can we appear to be doing about the problem without really doing anything?" Just like the "War on Drugs" and the "War on Poverty" and Prohibition. Those worked out really well. I feel so much better knowing there's no more drugs on the streets and no poor people and no more alcoholism. Don't you?
 
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I guess our opinions here on TFL of trained school staff ccw'ing in schools is not alone. Just now watching our 11:00pm NBC news and this is getting to be a fairly big, heated debate here in Ohio. The news is actually showing live interviews of many here wanting the same thing.

Surprising the number of people being so vocal of wanting this and, as surprising, the news is actually reporting it. :eek:
 
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