Texas Public School District First To OK Conceal Carry At All Levels.
- Thread starter xrocket
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Let me ask, do you support CCW in general? If so, why do you wish to deny teachers the right to carry?
In general yes. I don't wish to deny a teacher that right, just not on school property. Also if a decision has to be made about changing student/teacher ratios then that community has a huge problem and if so requires more thinking than turning teachers into something they are not. I can't help think there is an agenda other than student protection going on.
Do you? from Double Naught Spy
Absolutely not! I enjoy shooting and would consider myself half decent at it however I think it's easy to shoot at something that isn't shooting back or iniated the shooting in the first place. Would I rise to the occasion if need be? I would like to think so but the fact is I just don't know. Isn't that what specialized training is for, to weed out those who can from those who can't? We're talking about terroristic threats here not a frightened child shaking his weapon at someone. Aren't terrorists deserving of anti-terrorists or will the full time educator do? If my child needs protecting I'd rather it be from someone that was outside the boundries of "well, that's all we could afford" or "well, his or her intentions were good they were just out of their league".
Like I always say when I donate money to the Brady Campaign, it's better to have somebody rush the cockpit and kill 3,000 people than worry about untrained pilots with guns, endangering the passengers.
Wait, that came out wrong. Can I get a do-over?
How about not letting that guy on the plane or in the school to begin with. Were we as a nation not asleep at the wheel when that tragedy occured?
School security guards have proven that even the trained ones don't act as a well-oiled machine. At least this school district is giving them a fighting chance.
Does this not kind of proove my point. Will the teachers and the security guards train together? If not what chaos will that create? Who will train this newly appointed security force. And lets not even get into all the what if scenarios and liability issues if something should go terribly wrong.
Sincerely, Jim
In general yes. I don't wish to deny a teacher that right, just not on school property. Also if a decision has to be made about changing student/teacher ratios then that community has a huge problem and if so requires more thinking than turning teachers into something they are not. I can't help think there is an agenda other than student protection going on.
Do you? from Double Naught Spy
Absolutely not! I enjoy shooting and would consider myself half decent at it however I think it's easy to shoot at something that isn't shooting back or iniated the shooting in the first place. Would I rise to the occasion if need be? I would like to think so but the fact is I just don't know. Isn't that what specialized training is for, to weed out those who can from those who can't? We're talking about terroristic threats here not a frightened child shaking his weapon at someone. Aren't terrorists deserving of anti-terrorists or will the full time educator do? If my child needs protecting I'd rather it be from someone that was outside the boundries of "well, that's all we could afford" or "well, his or her intentions were good they were just out of their league".
Like I always say when I donate money to the Brady Campaign, it's better to have somebody rush the cockpit and kill 3,000 people than worry about untrained pilots with guns, endangering the passengers.
Wait, that came out wrong. Can I get a do-over?
How about not letting that guy on the plane or in the school to begin with. Were we as a nation not asleep at the wheel when that tragedy occured?
School security guards have proven that even the trained ones don't act as a well-oiled machine. At least this school district is giving them a fighting chance.
Does this not kind of proove my point. Will the teachers and the security guards train together? If not what chaos will that create? Who will train this newly appointed security force. And lets not even get into all the what if scenarios and liability issues if something should go terribly wrong.
Sincerely, Jim
plinky said:
The point is that the school grounds are where the BGs go to feel safe while they perpetrate their crimes. The guy in Colorado Springs thought he would be safe by going into a church to shoot people but he got what was coming to him from an unexpected source.
Schools are, by the nature of the current laws in place, a free-fire zone where unarmed victims willingly congregate; most of them, anyway. The BGs go there safe in the knowledge that the "first responders" are many minutes away and likely won't come into the fray -- ala Columbine where the cops waited outside for an inordinate length of time.
You see this as a superiority issue instead of what it truly is. The issue is t9o have a 50-50 chance against a determined BG intent on the slaughter of innocents. An unarmed victim's chances of survival start at 100:0 and only improve at the benevolence of the perpetrator.
The Israelis have been arming teachers for several decades and several armed attacks against schools have been repelled by teachers. What makes the average Israeli teacher so much more responsible and capable than the average American teacher?
Read my sig line quote by Stephen Luckey to see what I mean.
Hellbent11
New member
My wife and I are both teachers... The emergency plan for her school is if there is a "situation" AKA shooting in her area/room she is to post a piece of red construction paper in her window to let LE and Admin know there is a problem...(I'm not sure how to do this seriously wounded or dead?) and wait for further assistance. For myself if the intercom comes over with a situation message we are supposed to get away from the windows and huddle in a corner and I'm supposed to put a post-it note with a plus sign in the window if we're all "OK." The problem is the entire back wall of my classroom is glass...
and wait for further assistance
We are sitting ducks to any crazies that want to take us out. There are TWO LEO's for a school of 1100 kids and 100 teachers. What are they supposed to do but call an ambulance...I;m pretty sure they are not going to be charging into the fight...
Also, I'd guess that the SOP for that type of situation for LE in the building is to call for back-up and stay put waiting for SWAT to clear the building... I'd guess that SWAT's SOP would be #1 form a perimeter, #2 assemble a team to sweep the building that occupies nearly a city block room by room??? (Best case hoping that they had enough intel to focus on the area where an active shooter would be operating? Provided students or teachers could supply that intel in real-time fashion...)
The morgue would be pretty full of innocents by then...
and wait for further assistanceWe are sitting ducks to any crazies that want to take us out. There are TWO LEO's for a school of 1100 kids and 100 teachers. What are they supposed to do but call an ambulance...I;m pretty sure they are not going to be charging into the fight...
Also, I'd guess that the SOP for that type of situation for LE in the building is to call for back-up and stay put waiting for SWAT to clear the building... I'd guess that SWAT's SOP would be #1 form a perimeter, #2 assemble a team to sweep the building that occupies nearly a city block room by room??? (Best case hoping that they had enough intel to focus on the area where an active shooter would be operating? Provided students or teachers could supply that intel in real-time fashion...)
The morgue would be pretty full of innocents by then...
You know Brad...
... Your on to something there about a two week training course.
Give every volunteer concealed carry licensed and certified teacher or administrator a full all expense paid training course. Upon passing and completion give the graduates a substantial bonus. Include a raise and a requirement to be re-certified every five years or so and I think there would be enough staff to substantial cover a school or in the least, augment armed security in an emergency.
I'm sure there are staff who would take advantage of an opportunity for the right money. A side benefit would be more firearms enthusiast, more second amendment proponents and children would see firearms carried by responsible adults and this could only have an overall positive influence on the future.
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... Your on to something there about a two week training course.
Give every volunteer concealed carry licensed and certified teacher or administrator a full all expense paid training course. Upon passing and completion give the graduates a substantial bonus. Include a raise and a requirement to be re-certified every five years or so and I think there would be enough staff to substantial cover a school or in the least, augment armed security in an emergency.
I'm sure there are staff who would take advantage of an opportunity for the right money. A side benefit would be more firearms enthusiast, more second amendment proponents and children would see firearms carried by responsible adults and this could only have an overall positive influence on the future.
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So, if I understand correctly, you would trust a teacher at a mall, a theater, a home, a supermarket, but not where they work. This shift in trust makes sense how?
The school only has so much money to work with...
I believe we are talking about both, in reality.
The problem is the professionals are outside the boundries of the school, by about a half-hour.
If the worst should occur, which is worse: a teacher accidentally killing a student while stopping the attacker, or letting the attacker go about their business of slaughter?
That's a great plan...which is why the school already has cameras, locking doors, and a lockdown plan. The problem is they have to work 100% of the time, whereas an attacker only has to succeed once. This is what happened on 9-11. The old security failed on one day, after years of preparations by the attackers.
Life is a gamble.
"Disarming innocent people does not protect innocent people."
One thing to remember in all of this: The off-duty cop who took on the Trolley Square shooter in Utah kept the shooter pinned down and distracted until the "first responders" could get there. If the shooter is pinned down there is nothing he can do but concentrate on the fire coming at him and can not continue to perpetrate his crimes on those around him.
The point is, the school security guards don't respond quickly enough. Some don't even enter the building until the police arrive.
The difference is that the school security guard is generally away from the situation and must choose to get involved whereas the teachers are thrust into it and have no choice but to fight their way out.
That's one of the flaws of relying on LEOs to protect you. They can't get there quick enough, and they'll often wait for the rest of the team to arrive before entering while people are dying inside. Victims have a vested interest. Self-preservation is the strongest motivator. The officers have to fight the desire for self-preservation in order to get involved.
In the Virginia Tech shooting, there were actually two shootings on campus by the same guy. He murdered someone in the dorm, then an hour later shot up the classrooms. The school did nothing. Where were the guards while classrooms full of kids were being shot up? The teachers were right there trying to barricade the doors while shooter-boy was killing them.
The difference is that the school security guard is generally away from the situation and must choose to get involved whereas the teachers are thrust into it and have no choice but to fight their way out.
That's one of the flaws of relying on LEOs to protect you. They can't get there quick enough, and they'll often wait for the rest of the team to arrive before entering while people are dying inside. Victims have a vested interest. Self-preservation is the strongest motivator. The officers have to fight the desire for self-preservation in order to get involved.
In the Virginia Tech shooting, there were actually two shootings on campus by the same guy. He murdered someone in the dorm, then an hour later shot up the classrooms. The school did nothing. Where were the guards while classrooms full of kids were being shot up? The teachers were right there trying to barricade the doors while shooter-boy was killing them.
wildturkey76209
New member
Believe it or not...
There are actually Bliss-ninnies here in the Lone Star State that are crapping their shorts over this. I suspect that most of these are the ignorant and anti with wild visions of teachers strolling about campus with six shooters on each hip and practicing their best Dirty Harry imitation. :barf:
There are actually Bliss-ninnies here in the Lone Star State that are crapping their shorts over this. I suspect that most of these are the ignorant and anti with wild visions of teachers strolling about campus with six shooters on each hip and practicing their best Dirty Harry imitation. :barf:
Buzzard Bait
New member
need to change the sign
The sign on the school wall that says this is a gun free zone is dangerous and has contributed to the death and injury of way to many children it might as well say come in and have your way with us we are helpless the sign needs to read we love our children and we are armed to the teeth an any attempt to harm the children in this facility will be met with deadly force.
I brought this up at a school meeting at my daughters school I guess about half of them think I'm crazy but they needed to hear it.
Buzzard Bait
The sign on the school wall that says this is a gun free zone is dangerous and has contributed to the death and injury of way to many children it might as well say come in and have your way with us we are helpless the sign needs to read we love our children and we are armed to the teeth an any attempt to harm the children in this facility will be met with deadly force.
I brought this up at a school meeting at my daughters school I guess about half of them think I'm crazy but they needed to hear it.
Buzzard Bait
I believe you are well within your rights to hire a well-trained, highly motivated, trustworthy bodyguard. What exactly are you willing to pay? What aer you paying now?
You've got a school admin who's willing to take the responsibility and (some?) liability (I don't know where the burden falls if this is a volunteer basis anyway) of allowing means of defense for free. You child is already in as much danger without.
Double Naught Spy
New member
How sad for you.
If your child needs protecting at school, by the time the cops arrive and get a plan into action, your child will likely already be dead or injured. Virginia Tech is a classic example of how cops, in close proximity to the event, could not respond effectively in a timely manner. At this point, I don't know of a single school event where the cops arrived and effected a response fast enough to effective much benefit on the situation. It is rare for cops to even engage the bad guy(s). How are the cops going to be able to protect your kid if they don't even engage the bad guy(s)?
Don't pay anything, it isnt' necessary. I live in small town USA where there is enough police to have one at the school most of the time. Do I believe that a bad thing could never happen, absolutley not, however taking everything into consideration I feel comforatable. And in all reality if I did live in a "warzone" you can bet your a** I'd move for the protection of my family. An eye for an eye isn't always the best answer.
As far as liability just go ahead and shoot the wrong person because you were trying to protect another and let me know how it works out.
Why how sad for me. What percentage of the gun wielding population do you believe maintains the status of a SWAT team or better?
Again, this is the point I'm trying to get across. If things are that bad make a change that will allow the pro's meaning someone more efficient at their job than regular police to be at a much closer proximity than they presently are. Who cares about the cost. I'm quite sure that a community in that much trouble will find a way to fund it.
Because it is a school and I don't believe the two should mix.
The bottom line is that my opinion differs from most of yours. I also have in the back of my mind that there is an agenda in this situation to promote concealed carry that if backfires could have an irreversible negative effect. Does the community in question have a history of violence? Is it not in your best interest to at least explore alternatives instead of just going about saying "yeah, lets go kill the bad guys" and potentially destroying the gun rights we all enjoy.
Differing opinions are not a bad thing, debate over any issue is always good. It brings to the forfront all points of view. What better way to make a decision than by seeing all sides. However this discussion seems to be going around circle after circle. I would be happy to continue but please lets add some differing perspective.
Sincerely, Jim
^ isn't it at least as obvious that those in opposition do so at least 70% of the time with an anti CCW agenda, with the "oh, not there, it's not appropriate" line merely to establish a beachhead? It's very clear the Bradys have a vital alliance with the education system to spread their indoctrination. They easily make people accustomed to places they can't carry and push reasons not to, so it deters people entirely or at very least plants seeds of doubt. Plus teachers are very vocal in the community, often directly considered an important sector in the political landscape. Breaking up that unholy union of anti 2A and education is something that we absolutely must do.
I wouldn't want my child protected by a teacher who is more likely to shoot himself/herself then any potential threat.
Perhaps not all teachers are like that, but the vast majority of the ones I have met are.
Trained professionals should be implemented as guards, not teaching staff.
Perhaps not all teachers are like that, but the vast majority of the ones I have met are.
Trained professionals should be implemented as guards, not teaching staff.
No where did anything state they were there to guard anybody. When I am out and about, I'm not guarding anything. I am armed to defend if necessary. If someone feels confident enough to defend/protect out in public, I think it is a great idea to have that person armed in school. See, you are under the presumption that something will happen just because a few teachers are now armed. That is a far left cry if I have ever seen one. In fact, 90% of your comments are far left. What are you doing here again?