Texas Public School District First To OK Conceal Carry At All Levels.

plinky, this is just for you.

Most of the rest of us already know about this event.

plinky said:
This reminds me of the time that pilots were going to be allowed to carry firearms on the plane which I didn't believe in either. I don't think that someone should be a part time security force in high stress situations. If someone is going to protect the lives of my loved ones I want them trained and trained vigorously. In other words that is what they do full time. And to me being trained in crisis management is grossly ineffecient and doesn't even pertain to handgun training.

NOTE: This happened in 1954.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/1087467.html

Hero in the cockpit
Pistol served pilot well in '54
By EVAN MOORE Copyright 2001 Houston Chronicle
Oct. 14, 2001, 1:07AM

FORT WORTH -- Until now it was largely forgotten, a brief, tragic incident that lay buried in fading newspaper accounts and the memories of only a few, but the shooting of a hijacker by an airline pilot almost 50 years ago has taken on a new significance today.
It occurred shortly before noon on July 6, 1954, when a strapping teen-ager armed with a pistol commandeered an American Airlines DC-6 at the Cleveland Airport, only to be shot and fatally wounded by the captain.

The shooting ended the life of Raymond Kuchenmeister, 15. It made a reluctant hero of the late Capt. William "Bill" Bonnell of Fort Worth and left an indelible mark on Bonnell's psyche that he could never successfully erase.

Moreover, in light of the recent terrorist attacks and the ensuing debates over whether pilots should be armed, the 1954 incident illustrates a forgotten time when pilots not only routinely carried pistols, but were required to carry them.

On that Tuesday, 47 years ago, Bonnell was carrying his, a small, .380-caliber Colt semiautomatic, holstered in his flight bag.

Bonnell, a tall, quiet man, was a former Army Air Corps pilot who had served three stints in the service, two of those flying transport planes over China and Burma during World War II.

He also was ambidextrous.

"Bill could use either hand equally well," Jean Bonnell, his widow, recalled. "He used to play jokes on the shooting instructors in the military. There'd be a line of officers, all in the same stance, shooting at targets. One time, the instructor would walk down the line and Bill would be shooting right-handed. The next time, he'd be shooting with his left. He shot the same score with both hands."

Bill Bonnell joined American Airlines in 1936, and that airline, like others, transported U.S. mail.

"Back in those days, the pilot or co-pilot had to hand-carry the mail from the plane to the terminal," recalled George Patten, 85, a retired American pilot and a friend of Bonnell's. "Postal regulations required that you be armed. We all had to have guns, and American had us buy little .380s."

Bonnell's pistol remained in his flight bag. His widow recalled that he had not removed the weapon in years before the day of the hijacking.

On that day, Bonnell had flown from Fort Worth to Cleveland in the morning and was preparing for the return flight. The plane was carrying almost a full load, 58 passengers, and all had been seated.

Bonnell stopped and spoke to a young mother with two small children seated at the front. He then entered the cockpit and had already locked himself, his co-pilot and the engineer inside when Kuchenmeister approached the airplane ramp.

Police said Kuchenmeister, the oldest of seven children, was a troubled youth who had stolen a pistol and persuaded his 12-year-old brother to run away from home with him. He hatched his plan to hijack a plane earlier in the day, but once at the airport, the 12-year-old declined to accompany him.

So, alone, clad in dirty denim pants and a leather jacket, Kuchenmeister left his little brother in the terminal and walked out on the tarmac. There he pushed past an airline agent and was headed up the stairs to the plane when the agent demanded his ticket.

"This is my ticket," the burly youth reportedly said, and pointed the pistol at the agent.

The agent retreated, and at the entrance to the plane, Kuchenmeister told a stewardess he needed to see the pilot. Thinking he was part of the ground crew, she opened the cockpit, where Kuchenmeister, unnoticed by the passengers, stepped into the cramped quarters, closed the door and turned the gun on Bonnell.

"I want to go to Mexico," Kuchenmeister told Bonnell and his crew. "No stops."

Bonnell and the co-pilot attempted to explain to Kuchenmeister that the plane did not have enough fuel to reach Mexico, but the youth would not be deterred.

Finally, flight engineer Bob Young told Kuchenmeister they would take off but that it was necessary to throw a switch behind Kuchenmeister before the plane could taxi.

As the hijacker turned to look for the switch, Bonnell reached into his flight bag with his left hand, removed the pistol, swung around to his right and shot Kuchenmeister. The wounded hijacker then attempted to shoot Bonnell, but his pistol misfired and Bonnell shot him again.

"I shot him in the hip," Bonnell later recalled. "He sagged a bit. I let him have it again, a little higher.

"I had a maniac on my plane. We had women and children. What the hell could a guy do?"

Kuchenmeister was taken to a hospital, and Bonnell, the only qualified American pilot in Cleveland at the time, flew the plane back to Fort Worth. In midflight, he received word from Cleveland that the hijacker was only 15 and that he had died.

When Bonnell stepped from the plane, reporters described him as ashen and shaking.

"Bill told me later that the first thing he thought about when he was reaching for the gun was that woman and her two children at the front of the plane," Jean Bonnell said. "I said, `Why didn't you shoot him in the head with the second shot?'

"Bill said, `Because I didn't want to kill him.' "

Bill Bonnell returned to Cleveland the following day. "He wanted to go out and talk to the boy's family, to pay for the funeral," Jean Bonnell said, "but the police talked him out of it."

Bonnell received hundreds of letters from the passengers on that flight and their relatives, commending him for his actions.

"But Bill was never proud of what he'd done," Jean Bonnell said. "He'd been in the service, and he'd had to fight, but this was different. He told me it took him a day to convince himself that hijacker was really 15. He told me, `My God, Jean, we have a 13-year-old son.'

"After the first few weeks, he stopped talking about it and would never talk about it again. I don't think he ever completely got over it.

"But what if he hadn't had that gun? What if he hadn't shot? What would have happened to all those passengers?"

The event was front-page news for two days, then faded away, and for 47 years the Bonnell family refused to discuss it publicly. Jean Bonnell said she agreed to speak about her husband now only because of the recent terrorist attacks and requests by pilots associations to be armed.

After the Sept. 11 attacks, the Airline Pilots Association and the Allied Pilots Association proposed allowing pilots to carry handguns loaded with lightweight projectiles. The first group modified its proposal to include only stun guns, but the Allied association has not altered its stance.

President Bush has opposed the idea, as have the Airports Council International and the Association of Flight Attendants, though a number of legislators from both parties have supported the pilots' groups. The Senate passed an aviation security bill Thursday that would allow pilots to carry handguns. A similar bill is pending in the House.

In the meantime, congressional action on the proposal could be unnecessary, according to the Code of Federal Regulations governing aviation. That document, Chapter 11, Part 108, provides that no person can carry a weapon onto a plane unless that person is "authorized to have the weapon by the certificate holder (airline) and has completed a course of training in the use of firearms acceptable to the Administrator (FAA)."

That regulation was adopted in 1981 and has not been changed. Federal Aviation Administration officials acknowledged that the regulation is "on the books" and that it provides for armed pilots, but refused to answer more questions about it.

Bill Bonnell quit carrying his weapon July 7, 1954.

"He never carried it again," Jean Bonnell said. "Bill retired (in 1970). We moved, and we burned all the letters he'd received and any news clippings. We didn't want to remember it, but he could never really put it behind him.

"He died in 1991, and I'm afraid his later years were not very happy ones.

"A lot of people thought he was a hero, but Bill never considered himself one."
 
plinky

plinky said:
The point I'm trying to get at is that if it's necessary to protect a school or any place for that matter I think it should be done by trained professionals.

Are you aware that there have been three school shootings which have been stopped by common citizens with firearms?

  • Pearl, MS;
  • Appalachian School of Law;
  • Edinboro, PA.

In Pearl, MS it was the vice principal

In Appalachian School of Law it was students

In Edinboro, PA it was a private business owner

In all three cases, lives were saved because the shooter was stopped in the middle of their rampage.
 
Shooting is one of my favorite sports however if someone asked me to take on the roll of protector I would have to decline

Look, the situation in a school that necessitates teachers and admin to carry usually entails an individual with a gun roaming the halls shooting random kids, ala Columbine. Sure cops are employed for the primary protection duty, but frankly from what I've seen you'll only get one working at a time and they can be all the way across the school if something happens.

You don't need hundreds of man hours of training to be proficient enough with a firearm to thwart a BG swinging a shotgun or 'assault rifle' around. This has been proven time and again in various scenerios.

Teachers/admin won't be carrying to resolve typical school fights and such. I think you have the wrong idea what they're carring for.
 
chris in va said:
You don't need hundreds of man hours of training to be proficient enough with a firearm to thwart a BG swinging a shotgun or 'assault rifle' around.

Most people who are unfamiliar with police practices are very surprised at the low number of hours the police have in range time and shooting training.

Most people believe that police spend many hours at the range honing their shooting skills which is untrue. They see too many police shows with the "police" shooting into the camera as it pans down the firing line.
 
The fact school district ...

... employees can choose to carry if they meet the requirements will play a role in some level of deterrence and safety for students and teachers. Not knowing who is carrying at any one time will also add a level of deterrence and for that matter respect. It's an old saying over used , but apropos in this case; An armed society is a polite society.

In Texas, generally there is just a different mindset about common courtesy, self sufficiency, taking care of one's own and being respectful to others. It's not always the case, but it's still the norm especially in small town and rural areas of Texas.

The world is changing and some areas are evolving and not for the better. In the particular case of this school district common sense overrides hysteria and crazy "what ifs". Can this be applied to all districts in Texas? I don't think so, nor should it. Each district is different from one to the next and to say all districs should be made to allow conceal carry is just as wrong as saying none should be allowed to conceal carry.

There are many factors involved in a decision of this nature so let's see how it plays out.


.
 
Until a few years ago I was a teacher in Texas. Before that I spent 20 years in the Army. I felt qualified and trained to carry if I was allowed to, but that was not the case. There are many more like me still teaching. I am not worried about their abilities or judgment. I think this is an improvement.
 
First let me apologize to any teacher who thinks this opinion is pointed their way. I feel this way about any occupation where the primary function is something other than the well trained effective use of force.

As far as the reference to being a man, well that's just lame. An individual who has a gun and doesn't realize when not to shoot is an accident waiting to happen.

I find it hard to believe that these teachers will have the training to work as a well oiled machine when the shtf.

I also have no misconceptions about police credentials. They have a function in society that has limits. That's probably why SWAT teams were formed.

Kids or young adults who come on school grounds with auto, semi-auto guns and bombs are in my opinion very special needs circumstances.

I also don't agree that an armed society is a polite society. Isn't that how things used to be? Where is the politness in Darfur or Georgia?

I am all for responsible gun ownership and the right to carry concealed. What I'm against are those who choose to carry and abuse the right by not gaining the necessary training to use that tool.

When I received my permit I asked the sheriff about the laws pertaining to concealed carry and he had no clue himself. He couldn't even tell me where to go to get that info. He pretty much told me not to carry into a bank or a bar.

Jim
 
I asked the sheriff about the laws pertaining to concealed carry and he had no clue himself. He couldn't even tell me where to go to get that info.
This is the highly skilled and educated L.E.O. that will save us all. Probably the same one who will give "the necessary training to use that tool".

You have a ccw permit and don't know the laws governing your responsibility in your own state and then you post here labeling people unqualified and uneducated.

As far as the reference to being a man, well that's just lame.
Men have been the protector's over the ages regardless of how history has been rewritten over the last 40 years. A firearm in the wasteband is not required to be a man or to be a protector, the required equiptment usually sits about 8" below the waste line.

kenny b
 
So, what? Would you rather they be forced to wait for 30+ minutes for armed LEOs to respond?

I find it hard to believe that these teachers will have the training to work as a well oiled machine when the shtf.
If they function like a rusty hammer, I'll be happy. You don't need to be Wyatt Earp to defend yourself (and by proxy, your students) against an attacker within a classroom.

Citizens have proven time and time again one does not need to be a "well-trained professional" to defend themselves.
 
No, waiting 30 minutes is no answer either.

I view the rusty hammer theory like this: a person can act properly 1000 times and go unnoticed, however do 1 inappropriate thing and the news spreads like wildfire. How is that good for the advancement of gun ownership and the ability to carry concealed?

The sheriff is a prime example of how not to do a job. After speaking to him I realized it was up to me to get the needed info which I have done. Not everyone would be willing to do that though. Alot would say: Fine, that's good enough for me, which leads to more irresponsible walking around with guns.

Qualified men and women are equals in every way. Alot of the time, when it comes to the protection of children, I think women would be way more tenacious.

Agian I feel that if we are at a place in society that we as parents need to rely on teachers in school to be the first line of defense then why not just put a more qualified person in each classroom whose only job is to be ready at a moments notice to defend that classroom including the teacher.

To me not having to be a well trained citizen is like being a surgeon. Even the surgeon who graduated at the very bottom of their class is still called doctor. Who do you want operating on your child?

Another thought, lets not let the situation get that far to begin with. Lets all be more proactive in our communities and be aware of what's brewing. There is way to much of a me attitude going on.
 
Society evolves and has ....

... since the beginning of man.

"Agian I feel that if we are at a place in society that we as parents need to rely on teachers in school to be the first line of defense then why not just put a more qualified person in each classroom whose only job is to be ready at a moments notice to defend that classroom including the teacher."

In my generation we have gone from firearms in our cars in school parking lots and Buck knives in our pockets while in class, to kicking kids out of kindergarten if they even try to draw a picture of a gun.

Society evolves.

As a child I could stay outside from dawn to dark and roam where ever and no one would worry or give it a second thought. Now, parents won't even leave their children alone in the front yard of their own home out of fear.

Society evolves.

Our schools are now free shooting galleries for terrorist and any wacko who gets his rocks off by mass murdering innocents.

Society evolves.

Narco-crimes, home invasions, car hijackings, children snatching and much more unthinkable crimes that didn't even exist a few years ago are common place.

Society evolves.

Today, this list goes on forever ... always evolving, always will.

No one should ever be forced to act as an unpaid armed security guard in our schools, but by God I'm thankful there are a few men and women teachers and administrators who'll step up and say;


"You can count on me to do my best."








.
 
plinky said:
I view the rusty hammer theory like this: a person can act properly 1000 times and go unnoticed, however do 1 inappropriate thing and the news spreads like wildfire.

I believe the saying is:

When you do something right, no one remembers. When you do something wrong, no one forgets.
 
David Thweatt, the superintendent of schools there, told me today that the teachers would go through more training than is required for the carry permit. I got the impression that it would be fairly extensive, since he mentioned shooting "a lot of rounds" if I remember him correctly. He did not want to discuss the exact training.

The archive of that show is up on the web now.

www.guntalk.libsyn.com and you can download it and listen for yourself.
 
Agian I feel that if we are at a place in society that we as parents need to rely on teachers in school to be the first line of defense then why not just put a more qualified person in each classroom whose only job is to be ready at a moments notice to defend that classroom including the teacher.
What happens when the school faces the choice of letting the teachers exercise their carry rights (cost to district: $0) or hiring multiple security guards (cost to district: tens of thousands). The scarcity of funds is something they must consider. Their faculty to student ratio would probably have to be cut in order to hire enough security to provide a basic level of protection.

Let me ask, do you support CCW in general? If so, why do you wish to deny teachers the right to carry?
 
Like I always say when I donate money to the Brady Campaign, it's better to have somebody rush the cockpit and kill 3,000 people than worry about untrained pilots with guns, endangering the passengers.

Wait, that came out wrong. Can I get a do-over?
 
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