Texas Deer Hunting - what went wrong?

Nope, sorry, gotta call BS on that one. As a school teacher, I don't recall ever giving a student "permission" to insult me, but as a person in charge of a small portion of their lives pushing them to go in a direction they'd like to avoid (ignorance is bliss, you know), it happens.
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Excellent! But I disagree: You can not insult me, unless I participate in the exercise or have a guilt that you have discovered.. An insult occurs when I feel that I have been damaged in some way. If what you say to me is either inconsequential, or untrue, then I have not been damaged, and thus not insulted.

Accuse me of something untrue and I do not feel any pain. Criticize me for a belief that I am firmly committed to and I feel no angst. You can not insult me unless I am guilty of what you accuse, or unless I give you permission to make me feel bad.
 
Butch

What do you thinK TPWD is thinking allowing baited deer hunting.Do you think they have succumbed to all the lazy rednecks who are too lazy to stalk? Do you think they are not concerned with herd quality or population problems or hunter safety? Maybe the problem lies in Texas that the deer no longer have any natural predators because all the mtn lions, bears , coyotes etc...were killed off by cunning old stalk hunters, poachers, rednecks , farmers,ranchers or whomever wanted those predators dead. I am concerned about hunting in Texas. I'm concerned about antis, poachers, and those hunters around my lease who will shoot 2 1/2 year old deer. Although I respect your opinion and do not feel the least bit offended, IMHO you are not knowledgable enough about the entire situation to make a valid argument.
 
An insult occurs when I feel that I have been damaged in some way.
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Maybe this is an old southern gentleman thing. (I'm not saying you are no gentleman, but we apparently don't see this the same way). When my reputation is sullied or my honor is called to question, I am damaged.

A teacher's effectiveness can be destroyed by a bad reputation.
 
What do you thinK TPWD is thinking allowing baited deer hunting.Do you think they have succumbed to all the lazy rednecks who are too lazy to stalk? .
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Good questions, very good. What I think of TPWD is that they are a political arm of the government, and that some high political office holders above the TPWD hierarchy in the government of Texas were bought off by some land/lease owners in some manner - whether legal or not. It is the only way that I can understand why high fencing was allowed to become "legal" - containing public propertry for private profit - thus TPWD does not carry very much in the way of what I consider "moral authority". Frankly they allow things that should not be allowed.

I also think that the whole thing of allowing hunting over bait just crept up on them, and us. It's not like it was a sudden thing, it just slowly evolved from landowerns figuring out what the market would let them do to maximize profits off of their lands. Additionally I don't recall ever using the term "rednecks" :eek: , but hey you can call them as you see them!

I don't think that the deer in Texas ever had much pressure from natural predators and certainly don't these days. Automobiles probably kill more deer per annum than hunters, but I have no statistics on that to back me up. I don't think historically that there have been enough predators to ever keep up with Texas deer, or probably deer in any state - they are far more subject to environmental impacts, as in starving when there are too many.

Fire ants and Killer bees and even armadillos are all recent immigrants to Texas and have had some or no impact on deer. Fire ants have practically destroyed quail hunting in many areas though. I have no idea what to do about them.

I do think though that as reasoning and civlilized people that we can hunt deer in a sporting and ethical manner, and I believe that this does not include the use of mechanical feedes and deer fencing. Poachers are beneath contempt, unless they are struggling for survival, and I have no tolerance for them.

Am I knowledgeable enough about the entire situation? Doubtlessly not - but let me ask you to do some research - how many states make it expressly illegal to hunt deer over bait? In how many states is hunting deer over bait considered unethical by the general population of deer hunters? Is Texas fairly alone in this? And IF Texas is fairly alone in this, what does that mean?
 
Butch are you from Texas? You almost sound like someone how hates the idea of having to get a lease. I personally love the idea of leases. and after reading some of your replys I get the idea you need to research more on your topic. I'm still thinking you are a troll :D
 
Impact: I am 6th generation Texan on both sides of my family. I have been hunting for going on 45 years now, primarily in Texas, but some elsehwere also. I have seen hunting when it was a non-profit activity, all the way to the abysmal unethical and unsporting mess it is now.

I am so politically conservative that you are probably a flaming liberal by comparison, which is what my "rantings" should probably have shown by now. How anyone could read what I have written on this thread so far, and think that I am some kind of liberal just floors me. I am so conservative that I think people should actually think and act for themselves and if they do think and act for themsleves, and think and act without morals or ethics, then they should be shunned if not outright punished. Shunned if what they do is technically legal but still immoral or unethical, such as hunting over bait - here at home in Texas it is legal, but it is (in my opinion) unethical and usporting.
 
I used to know a guy who had a sense of ethics that was so over-developed that he wouldn't allow his company to supply him with a computer. He bought his own and brought it to work to use. That's fine with me...

But then he accused me of stealing from the company because I would get on the internet at lunch and browse--even though that was allowed by company policy.

I can't look into his mind and know for certain what he was thinking, but I have to think it's something like what's going on in your mind.

I'm glad you have a personal moral code that transcends what the law holds you to. That's commendable. But imposing it on others or denigrating others for engaging in legal activities that don't fit within your own personal moral code is pure snobbery.

BTW, I don't hunt deer and never have, before anyone asks.
 
I'm glad you have a personal moral code that transcends what the law holds you to. That's commendable. But imposing it on others or denigrating others for engaging in legal activities that don't fit within your own personal moral code is pure snobbery, and the worst kind of elitism.
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All you have explained so far is that you diagree with me, perhaps you could be more specific? I am not imposing anything on anyone, I do not have the power to do that, and I am sure everyone is quite happy that I do not :) . Do I denigrate people who shoot deer over mechanical feeders inside tall fences? Yes I do. Am I an elitist of the worst kind? Is it elitist to have ethics? I thought an elitist was someone who believes in rule by an elite group. Since I haven't visited my extremely individualistic poitical views on you, yet, I don't see how you can call me an elitist :) .

But I am willing to listen and learn....... :confused:
 
I edited my post to remove the "elitism" comment less than a minute after I posted it, so I'm not going to debate that issue except to say that an elitist is someone who thinks they're better than other people are. There is, however, within the concept of elitism, the "flavor" that the state of being better is intrinsic--that doesn't apply strictly in this case which is why I deleted that particular comment.

The fact that you can not ENFORCE your moral code on others doesn't mean you're not IMPOSING it on others. By saying that people who don't abide by it are unethical, you're saying that your personal moral code applies to them--in effect, you're imposing your personal code on them. Your inability to enforce it is irrelevant.

Actually, if you read my post, you will see that I did NOT say I disagree with you. In fact, I didn't say anything at all about hunting or hunting methods except to say that I don't and haven't hunted deer. I only commented on the idea of an individual trying to apply his personal moral code to the behavior of others.
 
JohnKSa: My mistake. You did not say that you disagree with me. Let me ask you then, do you agree or not? This is certainly a topic you are allowed to have an opinon on whether you hunt or not. You are clearly well educated and intelligent, your opinion is worth hearing....

As far as imposing my personal ethics on others, I strongly disagree with you, I can not impose on others as imposing requires some authority to make people act in a way they do not want to act - and since hunting over a mechanical feeder inside a tall fence is legal then I can not possibly make them stop. I can only state what I think. By stating what I think, I do not change anything within the universe physically, therefore there is no imposition. Am I a snob? Maybe, I will have to mull that one over for awhile as I have never considered myself a snob, but that doesn't mean I am not does it? I suppose nearly all snobs never consider themselves to be one..... :eek:

However that still begs the question of "Am I wrong?' which you have not answered..... :)

Maybe this is an old southern gentleman thing. (I'm not saying you are no gentleman, but we apparently don't see this the same way). When my reputation is sullied or my honor is called to question, I am damaged.
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20Cows: I certainly hope you are not about to challenge me to a duel? :) I think if you re-read my posts you will see that I have not challenged your ethics at all. As I recall you do not hunt on a tall fence lease with mechanized corn feeders. You do however hunt just inside the road after spotting deer from your truck, but on your own land. Your land may not be large enough to enjoy a full fair chase hunt. Have you ever considered it? It is the ultimate in deer hunting to take a deer on it's home grounds because you were careful enough and able enough to get close enough to make a one shot sure kill. If you are interested I will give you a very good idea of where you can do so, within 1.5 hours of Dallas and at a cost of about $40.00 .....
 
The fact that you are saying they're doing wrong and using your personal moral code as the basis for that statement is, by definition, imposing your own moral code on their behavior.

The fact that you do not have the authority to ENFORCE your personal moral code has nothing to do with it.

Having and stating an opinion is one thing. There's nothing wrong with that. The snobbery begins when you insist that anyone who doesn't live up to your personal standard is unethical.

Even if I were to agree that the practice is distasteful to me, that would be different from my saying that those who do it are unethical.
 
JohnKSa:

If I understand you correctly then no one may publicly proclaim a negative opinion of the behavior of others without imposing upon them? Is your definition of imposing: stating a negative opinion of the acts of others?

I think you and I have a significantly different opinion on the definition of imposition. Here is a quote from Websters definiton of the word impose.

"enforce:compel to behave in a certain way"

Do you mean to say that I should not express a negative opinion of the acts of people engaged in legal activities? If that is your belief, then an abyss opens before your feet my friend. :)

Acting legally and acting ethically are not always the same thing. I do believe that I can state that my opinion is that certain individuals engaged in certain behavior are acting unethically, even though legally, and still not be imposing anything upon them or being a snob myself. If not for statements and opinions that differ from the majority and take exception to the norm then what kind of society would we be bound up in?
 
20Cows - Maybe there is some public land closer to you then, not sure.

"Judgemental" is probably a better word than "imposing" when it comes to my opinions on this subject....
 
If I understand you correctly then no one may publicly proclaim a negative opinion of the behavior of others without imposing upon them?
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Not at all.
Acting legally and acting ethically are not always the same thing.
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Agreed.

It is commendable to live by a personal moral code. It is quite another thing to expect everyone else to also live by the same personal moral code that you employ.

It is a good thing for a person to set and abide by a strict personal sense of ethics. It is quite another thing for that person to say that everyone who doesn't live up to that person's own personal sense of ethics is unethical.

"Imposing your moral code on other's behavior" ISN'T the same as "imposing on them" or "enforcing your moral code" or "having the authority to enforce your moral code". There's a difference between applying your personal standard to the world and forcing the world to comply. Clearly you're not trying to force the world to comply, nor am I suggesting anything of the sort. (Although you have come very close to saying that you WOULD force them to comply if you could--or punish them if they did not.) However, you certainly are saying that anyone who does not live up to your personal standard is "unethical", "unsporting", or "immoral".

In the beginning, you were stating your opinion. Different points of view are always interesting and the discussion was educating and thought-provoking. When you started flat out saying that anyone not practicing your views was immoral and unethical, that's where it stopped being simply a matter of stating opinion and began to be snobbery. That's also where the thread pretty much began to turn from a discussion of hunting to a debate on what constitutes immoral or unethical or insulting.
 
"When you started flat out saying that anyone not practicing your views was immoral and unethical, that's where it stopped being simply a matter of stating opinion and began to be snobbery"

Thank you, John KSa. Couldn't have spelled it out more succinctly myself.
 
David and JohnKsa

"When you started flat out saying that anyone not practicing your views was immoral and unethical, that's where it stopped being simply a matter of stating opinion and began to be snobbery"
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Well OK, the thread has kind of wandered off I admit. Let me stipulate to my being a snob of the worst kind and let that go at that. I don't mind.

But to return to the origin of this thread, it is my opinion, humble as it is, that hunting deer over a mechanical feeder - especially inside a high fence enclosure - is unsporting and unethical (synonymous with amoral in my book). Unethtical pretty much being the same thing as unsporting in this context - so to simply things let me cleary make on simple statement:

"Shooting deer over a mechanical feeder is the least sporting method of legally harvesting deer, in my opinion."

Now, gentlemen my snobbery aside, what is your opinion of that statement?
 
My 2 cents.... I believe that the lease situation in Texas is the likely evolution of almost all private hunting property in the US where some money will exchange hands prior to hunting. I personally don't like it much.

Is hunting over (near) a feeder legal in Texas? Yes. Is it ethical? Ethics usually follow the state or federal laws and society mores or vice versa. Folks feel it's okay, so I am not going to condemn someone for hunting in a legal manner. Frankly, I'm just jealous that I can't afford to hunt on those big ranches (deer factories) in South Texas and the Hill Country.
 
22:

Don't be jealous. If you are used to fair chase huntng and you ever shot a deer over a feeder you wouldn't feel much; except a pinch in the wallet. I don't agree though that ethics follow laws. My opinion is that what has happened to Texas hunting has followed economics regardless of sportsmanship.

Do you recall the entrepeneur that recently set up hunting by remote controlled guns over a website? It didn't take long for the Texas legislature to shut him down. Why? Because he didn't have a lobbyist filling up politicians pockets....in my opinion. The difference between hunting by a remote controlled internet website, and hunting over a mechanical feeder isn't all that vast, ethically speaking.
 
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