Ten historic shoot outs on Discovery tonight.

Okay, I'm just gonna go out on a limb here and say that the 7th Cav Troopers killed far more than 8 Lakota, Arapaho, and/or Northern Cheyenne warriors.

Those eight markers are for the eight leaders of the various tribes that fell in battle.

Since the Native American warriors had no S-1 shop, I doubt anyone will ever know the exact figures of those killed at the Little Big Horn

And this isn't just chest bumping because I'm a 19D.
 
When I toured the Little Big Horn it was just after I had finished the Air land Battle doctrine portion of the Army Command and General Staff College.

I was impressed with the effectiveness of the Indian attack. Even though air land battle doctrine had not been concieved, the principles on which it is based were evident in the Indian actions in destroying Custer's Command.
 
"Wasnt much of a gun fight them Indians had no bullets as it was against the law to sell ammo to them."

This is the statement that I was referring to as hilarious. Are you saying they had rifles but no ammo, because it was illegal to sell ammo to them. 3 arrows per second, not bad. Mark

The 3 arrows per second comment might be a clue that someone had an agenda to make things look as favorable to the Indian side as possible. I'm no Custer fan, just trying to be as accurate as possible.
 
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A quick search found this:

"There were 2,361 cartridges, cases and bullets recovered from the entire battlefield, which reportedly came from 45 different firearms types (including the Army Springfields and Colts, of course) and represented at least 371 individual guns. The evidence indicated that the Indians used Sharps, Smith & Wessons, Evans, Henrys, Winchesters, Remingtons, Ballards, Maynards, Starrs, Spencers, Enfields and Forehand & Wadworths, as well as Colts and Springfields of other calibers. There was evidence of 69 individual Army Springfields on Custer's Field (the square-mile section where Custer's five companies died), but there was also evidence of 62 Indian .44-caliber Henry repeaters and 27 Sharps .50-caliber weapons. In all, on Custer's Field there was evidence of at least 134 Indian firearms versus 81 for the soldiers. It appears that the Army was outgunned as well as outnumbered."

The above was from the history.net website.

This from the National Park Service/ Midwest Archeological Center:

Indian arms included, 44 caliber Henry, 44 caliber Model 1866 Winchesters, 44/40 caliber 1873 Winchester, all repeating rifles. The army in 1876 did not issue repeating rifles.

They do also mention that the indians of course had bows and arrow, clubs, old muzzle loaders etc. Mark
 
[QUOTEAre you saying they had rifles but no ammo, because it was illegal to sell ammo to them][/QUOTE]

Yes, if a person sold them ammo and was caught they were hanged. The guns used by the indians were picked up on the battlefield for the most part. The guns used by many of the soldiers had bad ammo and the shells would not eject due to expansion. Wounded indians were carried off the field there were 8 dead left not 8 chiefs. I was told this by the park ranger not any history teacher. Now if you wish to see the markmanship of a native I suggest coming to Nebraska and go on a guided hunt up north of Omaha in Black Elk park, it will cost you but you will have a pro indian guide. You may use a target to practise up on your arrow skills, then ask one of them. He will show you some tricks and they hit what they aim at.

Custer wasnt that nice of a fellow, he was almost kicked out of the acadamy for rebellious stuff. He led a attack in the civil war took out some guys and saved the day, but it sure could of gone the other way. Luck was his till Little Bighorn. Indians wdere upset over being kicked off the res in the black hills due to gold was found there. It is still in the courts to this day.

Indians actually saved our rear ends in ww2, korea and nam with their code talking, still unbroken today. Thank an indian next time you meet up.

My friend had a Sioux ceremony at his service, also fire dept honor guard and 3 round volley by the VFW as he served bravely.

The books were written by those that oppressed the indians so are you surprised at the slant?
 
A lot of people nearly kicked out of West Point.

Wasn't one of the deciding factors, aside from Custer's bumbling stupidity the fact that the Indians had Winchester repeaters compared to the 7th Cav's single-shot trapdoors?

Further more, eight dead left behind would probably equate to several more times KIA.
 
In theory it was illegal to sell firearms to the Indians.

In theory it was also illegal to sell alcohol to the Indians.

In practice, both were largely disregarded by hundreds of traders who did very brisk business with many indian tribes in both commodities.

The simple matter was that, once a trader cleared "civilization," and got into Indian country, there were few, if any, effective policing mechanisms to stop him from selling anything he wanted to the indians.

And the theory that an Indian could fire 3 arrows a second?

Balderdash.

Not even the best bowmen could do that.
 
I guess you figure that criminals today don't have guns because they are prohibited from having them. How did the Indians pick up Winchesters, Henrys etc from the battlefield, when the soldiers did not have them? Part of the information that I put in my post came from the same park service that you are saying gave you the information. They have actually done forensic studies of the battle field and have been able to track by the expended ammunuition the movement of some of the shooters.

"There were 2,361 cartridges, cases and bullets recovered from the entire battlefield, which reportedly came from 45 different firearms types (including the Army Springfields and Colts, of course) and represented at least 371 individual guns. The evidence indicated that the Indians used Sharps, Smith & Wessons, Evans, Henrys, Winchesters, Remingtons, Ballards, Maynards, Starrs, Spencers, Enfields and Forehand & Wadworths, as well as Colts and Springfields of other calibers. There was evidence of 69 individual Army Springfields on Custer's Field (the square-mile section where Custer's five companies died), but there was also evidence of 62 Indian .44-caliber Henry repeaters and 27 Sharps .50-caliber weapons. In all, on Custer's Field there was evidence of at least 134 Indian firearms versus 81 for the soldiers. It appears that the Army was outgunned as well as outnumbered."

This is the kind of detailed information they got when they actually studied the battlefield. You think all of the above is just baloney?

I have no problems with Indians and their contributions. That doesn't however change the fact that they had repeating rifles and the soldiers didn't. I also didn't mention any books. I've seen a lot of information about the Little Big Horn through the years, from both sides, some contradictory, not just some story from a tour guide.

You don't think your credibility is questionable when you believe that someone can shoot 3 arrows per second with a regular bow and arrow? (one arrow at a time, I'm assuming). You seriously believe that. Mark
 
"I have watched and seen some amazing stuff done with bow and arrow.."

I'm sure you have. I saw a guy split an arrow the other night on a program. I've seen amazing demonstrations. 3 arrows in one second is not among them. That's all I'm saying on that part of the discussion. There are some claims that would be difficult to achieve that I would be willing to believe without actually seeing it. I'd have to see the 3 arrows shot that fast to believe it. Mark
 
When my granddaughter was about to become of age to hunt I took her to her Hunters Ed Class.

They had a session on Bow Hunting talking about how bows were the cats meow.

My Granddaughter pops up, "if bows and arrows are so great, how come the Indians lost".

I've seen some dern good bow hunters, (I'm not one, I couldn't hit the ground with a bow), but there is no way a guy, any guy, can shoot three arrows in 1 second.
 
That's not bad, but you can't really see how he's handling the arrows or how it's being timed. Start signal to last arrow fired, or time from first arrow fired to third arrow fired? Also, the original example would be an Indian firing arrows with 1870's equipment, with enough draw weight to do some serious damage to a soldier. Even at 1.5 seconds, if possible, that's 50% more time than quoted. Mark
 
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