Ten historic shoot outs on Discovery tonight.

I agree on Waco.

Also, the thing I hate about Sons of Guns (Is that the one in Arkansas or wherever?) is that they seem to try to perpetuate every stereotype of deep south America.

Maybe it actually is that way...I've never been there. But that's kind of my point.
 
It seams like they are finding a lot of shows lately exploiting some more rural folks and tradjtions. Handfishing on tv kinda blows me away. Usually not good examples
 
Turn the thread back to critical incidents as compared to comparative whackos on TV, if you would - please.

BTW, wrestling isn't real either (like those two shows).
 
I think seeing the guns in action is worthwhile, even if the commentators are morons.....
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Maybe some truth to both assements above, but here we are talking about them here on the forum, meanwhile they are the ones on TV being watched by America, making money and getting there business names out there in the public eye.
I don't see either one of them talking about any of us here on TFL.
So in closing I'll ask who's the morons? Us, them both or none of the above?
 
As a business man, all gun stuff aside I do not like the owner of American Guns as they portray him on the show. It might all be an act for all I know but im sorry, pushing a new shooter to a highly custom 1911 as her first gun is moronic and borderline immoral.

In regards to the show; echoing a lot of what others have said: The custom fully automatic 1911 in 38 super was pretty damn cool. It looked sort of like a Beretta 93R , I wonder if they didnt get the idea from his gun.
 
They profiled a gun used by “Baby Face” Nelson of the John Dillinger gang a Colt 1911 .38 Super converted to full auto with a fore grip and I believe a 20 round magazine
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Interesting looking weapon. I would hate to be on the receiving end of that, but it looks far from easy to conceal. Why not a cut down rifle or shotgun? These guys were not overly worried about having illegal weapons..

P.s Don P, I like your train of thought. Some folks should remember, "if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all."

There were some very early smokeless powders (nitrated wood pulp, and other things) that were being used in shotshells, such as Schultz's White Powder, but I suspect that their penetration into the marketplace at this time, especially in the west, was VERY low.
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Mr. Irwin, if I remember correctly most of the accounts of the fight at the Ok coral mention how quickly the area was filled with “gun smoke,” I also believe that Holiday got his 10 gage into the fight early on. So it would be reasonable to believe that Holiday’s ammo was of the black powder verity.
 
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Little Big Horn
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Wasnt much of a gun fight them Indians had no bullets as it was against the law to sell ammo to them. They used arrows, go to the actual battle ground park and listen to the park rangers tell the story. Indians could fire 3 arrows per second. 8 Indians died there. Markers show where they fell.
 
After a 6 pack and an number of shots, I love the idots on Son of A Gun.

I watched the show and found it to be idoitic. The flame thrower segment shows exactly the type of imbecilic behavior which the media uses to cast all of us as buffoons.
 
The lady friend liked the show in regards to the Prohibition era gunfights. (that was her assigned topic for a history paper once and I am constantly asked when we can shoot a Thompson.)

However, I too agree with the lack of mention(in this show and most other media for that matter) of the Truman Assasination Attempt.

I think that is a critical incident to study, especially for the principle of practice with what ammo you carry.
 
"Wasnt much of a gun fight them Indians had no bullets as it was against the law to sell ammo to them."

This is hilarious. I can't believe I'm reading this on a gun forum.. I guess that's why the criminals today have such a difficult time getting guns and ammo, it's illegal to sell to them.. Actually, the indians were the ones who had repeating rifles while the cavalrymen had their single shot rifles and some revolvers. Mark
 
As far as influencing law enforcement doctrine and tactics, IMHO there are actually four major incidents.

1. Lots of people have never heard of the Norco shootout in California. This is a riveting account of a running gun battle with armed bad guys. The cops were armed with revolvers, two reloads and pump shotguns. The BG's (IIRC) were armed with an AR15, a HK91, and multiple handguns.

2. The infamous FBI shootout in Miami woke the LE community up to more modern equipment that gave officers more immediate firepower. After that shootout, the emphasis was on replacing revolvers with semiautomatic handguns. Research and testing done as a result of that incident gave birth to one of our most popular cartridges to date, the .40 Smith and Wesson.

3. The Onion Field incident also caused a major shift in law enforcement training and doctrine. This one was where two officers were abducted; one was executed in an onion field; I believe the other one escaped.

4. However, the second single most important incident concerning law enforcement officers--and another incident causing a major shift in training, doctrine and tactics--was the Newhall massacre. Police officers pulled over a car load of armed killers. When the shooting stopped, four officers laid dead. This incident gave us our current procedures for the felony (hot) stop and also placed a major emphasis on officer safety.
 
IMO here's one shootout from the British Army in Northern Ireland that shows what a very highly trained professional can do to terrorists:

One evening in the Londonderry area of Northern Ireland an SAS man was working alone on a surveillance task; he was in an unmarked civilian car driving around some very dangerous areas of that city. He had his Browning Hi-Power 9mm Pistol on his belt and several other weapons stashed inside the car, including an MP5 & a G3K 7.62mm assault rifle.

Somehow the opposition (the IRA) became aware of his presence and hastily brought together a team of 4 shooters armed with AK47s & AR18s; they got a car and began to follow the SAS man. Given that he was an expert in both surveillance and counter-surveillance, it was fairly obvious to him he'd outstayed his welcome in the area and they were onto him. So he began to drive calmly away from the area, but this quickly descended into a pursuit and the other car forced its way infront, stopped and created a barrier. The first burst of fire from the AK47 effectively immobilised the SAS man's car.

Whatever the circumstances it appeared that a fast reverse and a J-turn to escape were now out of the question; so the SAS man engaged them. He drew his Browning and went on the offensive. Despite being massively 'out-gunned' he used his Browning so quickly, accurately and effectively that three out of four terrorists were killed or incapacitated.

The 4th terrorist dropped his AK47 and ran away. The 'rumour' is that the SAS man let him go, despite being quite capable of killing him, so the terrorist could tell the others what it was like to take on an SAS man and lose!

A nice piece of quick thinking psychological warfare on his part.

I'm sure there are numerous similar examples of very high skilled shooters, whether military, police or a civilian protecting himself that can be mentioned. I thought you might like this one. It's quite relevant for our US audience too, because the SAS were credited with bringing Jeff Cooper's Modern Technique, including the Weaver Stance, etc, to the UK in the 60s/70s. The influence of their training meant that the UK Police adopted it (where do you think they get their training then??)
 
The tide of the Norco shootout turned in favor of the police when one of the assistance response deputies brought out what might have been a personally owned AR-15.

IIRC he killed one of the robbers outright and made the others displace from the ambush that they set up. Apparently these guys not only wanted some money, they wanted to kill some police officers.


"The infamous FBI shootout in Miami woke the LE community up to more modern equipment that gave officers more immediate firepower."


Three of the agents in the Miami shootout were armed with 9mm Smith & Wesson semi-autos.

It was the failure of the Winchester 115-gr. Silvertip bullet to reach Platt's heart that resulted in the modern era of bullet and ammunition design.

This months' American Rifleman has an interesting article by Bill Vanderpool, who is former chief of FBI's ballistics dept. It is, unfortunately, a rather short article, and doesn't go into much detail, but he talks about the aftermath of Miami and the effect it had on ammunition design and testing.

Agent Mirelles ended the shootout with a Smith & Wesson Model 19 revolver loaded with 158-gr. LSWCHP .38 +Ps, which were standard issue to agents at that time.
 
From the account I read in "Weapons and Tactics for Law Enforcement", the officer that ended the Norco shootout instead got his personal AR-15 up and running to aquire the iniative.

Didn't Agent Mirelles also have a Remington 870?
 
"Interesting looking weapon. I would hate to be on the receiving end of that, but it looks far from easy to conceal. Why not a cut down rifle or shotgun? These guys were not overly worried about having illegal weapons.." This was in reference to Baby Face Nelson's fully auto 1911 .38 super.

They weren't illegal until 1934. I'm not sure what dates Nelson was in business.
 
3. The Onion Field incident also caused a major shift in law enforcement training and doctrine. This one was where two officers were abducted; one was executed in an onion field; I believe the other one escaped.
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This, the Onion Field, affects more officers and I'll add civilian self defense then all the others combined.

Yes it involved the two officers you mentioned, both were captured, one was killed the other escaped.

BUT that's not the theme of the subject. The Officers gave up their guns, one escaped but because the gave up their guns the second was killed, the first was haunted the rest of his life.

LE changed their tactics, stressing NEVER EVER GIVE UP YOUR GUN, and just because someone has the drop on you doesn't mean you are at an disavantage. You can still respond and you can still win.

Most departments started training session where we drew on a subject who had his gun pointed at you, we found it doesn't take much to pull it off, (this was covered in a subject I started a few weeks ago, "drawing on a bandit who has the drop on you".

We also got into a heavy training program of "take a ways" or ripping the firearm from an individual who has the drop on you.

Anyway, the chances of the massive gun battles are quite un common in real life, the "one on one" situation of the Onion field are much more common.

In reality cops spend more time on traffic stops, disturbances, field interviews, etc, then in multi bandit gun fights at banks.

I'd say the same for Civilian SD, its home invasion, its convience store robberies, ATM rip off's, or car jacking situations not multi bandit gun fights.
 
This is hilarious. I can't believe I'm reading this on a gun forum
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Well all I can say is I was at the battlefield and listened to the park ranger describe the battle and went by the fact the soldiers were riddled with arrows and not to many were shot. But hey belive what you wish. I was very surprised to hear this from the ranger. There are numerous books on it if you wish to research it. My good friend Gary Spotter War Bonnets Grandpa made coup that day he was 14. I heard his tale on the res while visiting Gary.

While some warriors were armed with rifles (including antiquated muzzle-loaders and Army Sharps carbines which they had acquired years before in trades with settlers), the Indians also carried a large variety of traditional weapons. These included bows and arrows and several styles of heavy, stone-headed war clubs. According to the Indian accounts, at least half of the Indian warriors were armed only with bows and "many arrows," making this the primary weapon.[52] Many of the Indian participants, including the thirteen year-old Black Elk, claimed to have acquired their first gun from dead troopers at the battle.[53] The Sioux warrior White Bull described the Indians' systematically stripping slain troopers of guns and cartridge belts. As the losses mounted among Custer's men, the soldiers' fire steadily decreased, while the gunfire by the Indians with newly acquired weapons increased until reaching a crescendo.[54] Cheyenne participants gave similar testimony: the Indians' firepower was increased by the new carbines they took off the soldiers, and ammunition recovered from the saddlebags of the troopers' captured horses.
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Tactics the Indians used then are common to gurilla warfare used to this day. Tied brush on the horses tails to make dust, burned brush to create smoke and separate the soldiers. But hey what do I know? It is history not TV made movies crap. Custer got his due after he killed countless women, children and old men.
 
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