Tell me about the 5.7 rd...please

[Manco]

The classics will always work with efficiency and style. And they won't ever go anywhere. But the 5.7x28 is really the newest example of just how far projectile design, fine tuning, and applied science can take handheld ballistics.

Refinement is nice and all, but anything a smaller thing can do a larger thing can do more of, and there are some pretty nice bullets available for larger calibers, too.

I generally scoff openly at items labeled the "next greatest thing" or "archetypal design", etc... (like how some have marketed the Taurus Judge as the end all-be all self defense weapon),

While I'd scoff at the notion that the Judge is the be-all & end-all of handguns, I wouldn't scoff at 3-4 #000 lead balls hitting a target at once, even if penetration is somewhat limited.

but I don't think this applies to the 5.7 round or either high-production platform it's available for.

5.7x28mm is not the be-all & end-all either, so the same principle applies for me--nothing to scoff at except people putting it on a pedestal.

If I was in a car, I would rather be hit with the ZX14R.

Good point, and if I were some random organ, nerve, or artery standing out in the open waiting to be hit by either, then I'd rather have the little super-advanced bike aimed at me because it would be more likely to miss. No matter how cute we get with refinement, size always matters.

 

[DmL5]

Good point, and if I were some random organ, nerve, or artery standing out in the open waiting to be hit by either, then I'd rather have the little super-advanced bike aimed at me because it would be more likely to miss. No matter how cute we get with refinement, size always matters.

"Stopping power" is dictated by shot placement and has virtually nothing to do with bullet size, energy, etc. The miniscule size difference between one tiny pistol bullet (5.7mm) and another tiny pistol bullet (9mm, etc) is irrelevant. They are both tiny pistol bullets, and their performance depends on shot placement.

 

[Manco]

"Stopping power" is dictated by shot placement and has virtually nothing to do with bullet size, energy, etc. The miniscule size difference between one tiny pistol bullet (5.7mm) and another tiny pistol bullet (9mm, etc) is irrelevant. They are both tiny pistol bullets, and their performance depends on shot placement.

I've lost count of how many times I've made this point myself when people exaggerate, as they so often do, the difference in effectiveness between pistol calibers. Then eventually I have to turn around and address the argument that there is NO difference in effectiveness between calibers, because there is a difference, even if it's smaller than other people think. It's not easy walking the fine line that I consider the truth.

The fact is that although all bullets are small in comparison to the target, bigger ones tend to destroy or damage more tissue, and on occasion--a small percentage of the time--even a small difference in size can make a big difference in effectiveness. It all ultimately boils down to how each factor affects the odds of various outcomes. Shot placement and penetration are still more important and always have priority, but bullet size does matter, even if it's not enough for some to concern themselves with.

 

[StrongSideArmsInc]

Again I have to stress, the round is capable of self defensive. As far as I am concerned it is just as good as any other standard pistol round. The difference is the combination of the pistol and the round. The two together on todays law enforcement, personal defense, and millitary battlefield. I think it is unmatched.
We no longer train in combat shooting to put our nonfiring hand in are pocket and extend the weapon with are firing hand. This is a bulleyes competition type hold.
Our combat pistol trainning is evoling, along with the tools to best fit the trainning. With the 5.7 combo, I find no other platform that gives me the speed, capacity, weight, range, and performance. Look I love 1911s, and love the 45acp. I have personally been mixed up in a shooting with both. I have seen its effect on humans, it works, and does it well. If you ever shoot a reverse oscar course, pepper popper course, or transition drills, you will fine the FiveSeven does it the best. Combat training is not about sitting still. Its about moving, shooting, target range transitions., etc. its not even about performance in geltain. Its about laying an effective, fast, high speed volley of fire all while on the move. Go shoot a FiveSeven, feel the trigger reset, feel the weight of 20 rounds of ammo, when you shoot it at 15 yards, transition to a 50 yard target without compensating the sights. It truley is amazing weapon. Most of the LEOS in my area are now training 2 chest, 1 in the head, and 1 in the pelvic area. With two subjects that is a mandatory reload with a 1911 in 45. As good as you might be with a 1911, recoil control is going to affect how quick you get back on the target. With 5.7 you are carrying a capable round, with almost no recoil, and mag changes are few and far between.
The biggest difference in training today is understanding the bodys mental and physical reaction to a fight of flight critical incident. The bodys ability to absorb pain through several gun shots, along with narcotic induced subjects. are changing the way we train. Not to mention the advent of second hand body armor. Nobody SHOULD argue on the effectiveness of 9mm, 45acp, etc. I remember 5 years ago responding to a bank robbery in west orlando, on my way there, dispatch advised two male subject with assault rifles wearing ballistic vest. As we got closer, I began to to think about the fact that none of the officers responding had any firearm capable of penetrating a ballistic vest. I did however, keep my unauthorized 5.7 in my duty bag, and thought to myself, I could lose my job if I have to deploy this thing. I carried a 1911 on duty for 8 years, and never felt under gunned, unitll that moment. Haven a weapon that can perform good across the board, given the unknown dynamics of gunfighting is more important than knowning the gun can perform great in one specialized incident. As much as I hate to say it, I think that is why Glock is such a sucess story.

Food for thought, I have been there.

http://www.wftv.com/news/10584568/detail.html

 

[IMTHDUKE]

^
Compelling argument...thanks.

 

[8shot357]

Is the 5.7x28 rd just a glorified .22 mag or does it actually have the ballistic power needed in a self defense situation.

Not good at math?

 

[darkgael]

+1

StrongSideArm:

Compelling argument...thanks.

Absolutely.
Another thanks.

Pete

 

[IMTHDUKE]

Not good at math?

Not good at interpreting vailed statments either

 

[8shot357]

Not good at interpreting vailed statments either
__________________

2+1.65=3.89

 

[tomishamish]

Duke, I'm gonna weigh in here because with this number of posts why the heck not. I own the FiveSeven from FN and I bought it for the same reason that strongsidearm did. It was novel, I figured it was about to get the legal ax, and 20 rounds seemed like a heck of a lot. Here's what I now think of the gun.

It has one of the better triggers available in a handgun. I compare it with my para ordnance p14. It is single action only, but that is just one more reason to carry with one in the hole.

It has favorable recoil. I compare it with the 9mm because of the energy developed at the muzzle (no comment on terminal ballistics here, just recoil), and since it has a longer cartridge it is spreading the same muzzle energy over a greater recoil spring, resulting in more of a "push" than a "snap" of recoil.

It has great accuracy. I've only shot it at 25 yards in a dimly lit indoor range, but I can keep 21 rounds in the 9 ring at that range from a standing hold. Can you do this with a well made 9mm?

It is really light. It weighs exactly half what the p14 weighs loaded (admittedly a heavy comparison gun).

At the end of the day I use this gun as the first gun I put in the hands of somebody I'm teaching to shoot pistols. It has enough recoil to make you hold properly, the safety placement makes you put your finger in the right place, and it is reliably accurate so I know that the place that the shots are going are more directly related to the shooter, and can make critical adjustments to shooting habits while they are still getting the hang of this thing called shooting.

I just got back from the range where my best buddy and his wife got done shooting pistols for the first time. Each of them got bored with 15 yards within the first 25 rounds and were stretching to 25 to get some challenge. Think about this for a minute. They could count on one hand the number of times either of them had held a gun much less shot one, and in an hour and a half they were dead eye shooters with a 5.7. It is that accurate, easy to shoot, and inspires that much confidence. I could then take that confidence and put them behind pretty much anything I owned and they would make good hits to the center of mass.

As for the cost it's comparable with a middle of the road 1911, (para, springfield, etc) I don't quite get the griping here, and the ammo can get down to $18.50 a box in bulk (sometimes lower) which is the only way to buy ammo these days anyway.

As for the tireless terminal ballistics debate I'm with the placement crowd; so long as you have the ability to penetrate a heavy jacket along with a layer or two of shirts and still do damage. The 5.7 can do this, so it's effective. If the gun is as accurate as others and I am saying, then it will do the job because of placement. Remember pulp fiction where they guy with the "gun that was bigger than he was" did diddly with it?

And I don't know about others here but using Fort Hood as a case study seems more than a bit wrong to me. That demented loser should not be placed in the same case as anything successful. (in reference to him being "successful" at murdering soldiers)

Just the thoughts of a five seven owner duke. Hope it helps duke and sorry for the long post.

 

[IMTHDUKE]

tomishamish

Good objective info...thanks.

 

[tomishamish]

Duke, I'm gonna weigh in here because with this number of posts why the heck not. I own the FiveSeven from FN and I bought it for the same reason that strongsidearm did. It was novel, I figured it was about to get the legal ax, and 20 rounds seemed like a heck of a lot. Here's what I now think of the gun.

It has one of the better triggers available in a handgun. I compare it with my para ordnance p14. It is single action only, but that is just one more reason to carry with one in the hole.

It has favorable recoil. I compare it with the 9mm because of the energy developed at the muzzle (no comment on terminal ballistics here, just recoil), and since it has a longer cartridge it is spreading the same muzzle energy over a greater recoil spring, resulting in more of a "push" than a "snap" of recoil.

It has great accuracy. I've only shot it at 25 yards in a dimly lit indoor range, but I can keep 21 rounds in the 9 ring at that range from a standing hold. Can you do this with a well made 9mm?

It is really light. It weighs exactly half what the p14 weighs loaded (admittedly a heavy comparison gun).

At the end of the day I use this gun as the first gun I put in the hands of somebody I'm teaching to shoot pistols. It has enough recoil to make you hold properly, the safety placement makes you put your finger in the right place, and it is reliably accurate so I know that the place that the shots are going are more directly related to the shooter, and can make critical adjustments to shooting habits while they are still getting the hang of this thing called shooting.

I just got back from the range where my best buddy and his wife got done shooting pistols for the first time. Each of them got bored with 15 yards within the first 25 rounds and were stretching to 25 to get some challenge. Think about this for a minute. They could count on one hand the number of times either of them had held a gun much less shot one, and in an hour and a half they were dead eye shooters with a 5.7. It is that accurate, easy to shoot, and inspires that much confidence. I could then take that confidence and put them behind pretty much anything I owned and they would make good hits to the center of mass.

As for the cost it's comparable with a middle of the road 1911, (para, springfield, etc) I don't quite get the griping here, and the ammo can get down to $18.50 a box in bulk (sometimes lower) which is the only way to buy ammo these days anyway.

As for the tireless terminal ballistics debate I'm with the placement crowd; so long as you have the ability to penetrate a heavy jacket along with a layer or two of shirts and still do damage. The 5.7 can do this, so it's effective. If the gun is as accurate as others and I am saying, then it will do the job because of placement. Remember pulp fiction where they guy with the "gun that was bigger than he was" did diddly with it?

And I don't know about others here but using Fort Hood as a case study seems more than a bit wrong to me. That demented loser should not be placed in the same case as anything successful. (in reference to him being "successful" at murdering soldiers)

Just the thoughts of a five seven owner duke. Hope it helps duke and sorry for the long post.

 

[imthegrumpyone]

You know all I hear from "experts" on this forum is this round sucks that round sucks, this gun is to small if you don't own or carry "this gun" your cheap or stupid and don't know what your doing, and a bunch of what ifs. I bet no one wants to stand in front of any of these guns or non-superior rounds for effect.

 

[Manco]

As for the tireless terminal ballistics debate I'm with the placement crowd; so long as you have the ability to penetrate a heavy jacket along with a layer or two of shirts and still do damage. The 5.7 can do this, so it's effective.

Doesn't the same principle apply to .22 LR, though? With the right loads and non-expanding bullets it can penetrate as much as 5.7x28mm does. Sure, with no expansion .22 LR bullets will be narrower, but size doesn't seem to matter to some folks, so....

 

[DmL5]

Doesn't the same principle apply to .22 LR, though? With the right loads and non-expanding bullets it can penetrate as much as 5.7x28mm does. Sure, with no expansion .22 LR bullets will be narrower, but size doesn't seem to matter to some folks, so....

As you pointed out, the .22 LR won't perform as well as 5.7x28mm in terms of wounding effects, but more importantly, the .22 LR does not offer the same advantages over other larger pistol calibers.

 

[NateLeit]

As you pointed out, the .22 LR won't perform as well as 5.7x28mm in terms of wounding effects, but more importantly, the .22 LR does not offer the same advantages over other larger pistol calibers.

"The miniscule size difference between one tiny pistol bullet (5.7mm, 9mm) and another tiny pistol bullet (22 LR, etc) is irrelevant. They are both tiny pistol bullets, and their performance depends on shot placement. "

 

[NateLeit]

Doesn't the same principle apply to .22 LR, though? With the right loads and non-expanding bullets it can penetrate as much as 5.7x28mm does. Sure, with no expansion .22 LR bullets will be narrower, but size doesn't seem to matter to some folks, so....

No for some reason that rule only applys to 5.7x28

 

[DmL5]

A 5.7x28mm weapon has substantial advantages over a larger pistol caliber; a .22 LR pistol does not. A spare 30-round Five-seveN magazine can be carried for less weight than a spare 17-round Glock magazine. A Five-seveN pistol loaded with 20 rounds weighs the same as an empty Glock 17 or Glock 19 pistol. The Five-seveN also has a higher magazine capacity, shoots flatter, recoils less, and with EA's ammunition has the ability to penetrate virtually any type of body armor. So yes, the Five-seveN pistol itself is a far superior platform, as was stated earlier.

 

[NateLeit]

A 5.7x28mm weapon has substantial advantages over a larger pistol caliber; a .22 LR pistol does not. A spare 30-round Five-seveN magazine can be carried for less weight than a spare 17-round Glock magazine. A Five-seveN pistol loaded with 20 rounds weighs the same as an empty Glock 17 or Glock 19 pistol. The Five-seveN also has a higher magazine capacity, shoots flatter, recoils less, and with EA's ammunition has the ability to penetrate virtually any type of body armor. So yes, the Five-seveN pistol itself is a far superior platform, as was stated earlier.

Weight:

Weight of Glock 19 pistol, 20.99 oz

Weight of Fiveseven Pistol: 20.8 oz

That extra .1 oz will give a large advantage between these two squirt-gun heavy pistols.


Flatter shooting

This will rarely be taken advantage of in a handgun platform. Any accuracy problem with a handgun will likely involve the shooter being at fault. We aren't dealing with shoulderfired weapons here. :barf:

Recoils less

Porting or muzzlebreak for 9mm or 40 if you think that it kicks like a mule.

EA's ammunition has the ability to penetrate virtually any type of body armor.

I have never seen a reliable video of the Fiveseven 5.7x28 going through any or all type of body armor, also I do not believe in select magic bullets. Such as Extreme shock or EA

 

[NateLeit]

The Fiveseven is a neat gun, a fun range blaster and it also has some potential advantages in more rare situations such as Kevlar penetration. Absolute replacement or overall superior than standard firearms such as Glock, Sig, or HK? No, not really.