Teachers with firearms

Of course children gather at many locations outside of school.
In how many of tose locations can an attacker be fairly certain no one is carrying a gun? Not many.

In my state if you go to eat at a chain restaurant that isn't posted chances are very good someone in the restaurant is carrying. Statistically it is likely several will at least have CCWs. A crowded public playground is not much different.
 
And just what state are you in?

It is a fair question. After all, if you are in a state where there are so many folks with CCWs, then obviously we would expect you to be having a disproportionately high amount of people with CCWs stopping crimes, right?
 
The debate is over whether continuing to disarm teachers has any value, and whether gun free zones protect shooters more than innocents. I agree that nothing will "solve" the problem. The goal is to reduce the damage.
I agree. This is something that needs a remedy and only through trying can we succeed or fail at it. Closing our minds to different solutions produces no results.

They have armed teachers in my state and I am for it, just not forcing them to do it or preventing them from being able to if they so choose. If on too many occasions this proves unfruitful, I would change directions. Still I remain open to reasonable answers without the results proving fruitful.

Choosing when and how a person might succumb to his own actions needs to be removed as well(if possible). I know this adds to the conundrum, but I believe that they should be robbed of the chance to "go out as planned" ( if they so planned) and stand trial.

I don't think arming teachers will make much difference. If someone is determined to harm children would they not just choose somewhere else to carry out an attack. I am sure schools are not the only place that children congregate. Moving the problem somewhere else wouldn't solve the issue. It is bad that we even have to discuss arming teachers. Is this more an American issue or does it happen on the same scale in other countries. I know we had 30 years of near civil war were but there was never the need to protect schools.
The very thing this thread revolves around is the type of shootings these kids are committing. The school and it's contents is the target and has to do with what they see as the problem. That is why they focus on it and attack it. They don't see things in a manner of just killing. For them it is simple this is where the problem is and the people that caused it. They don't necessarily see the world as the problem, it is the school and/or students who they feel have harmed them. Also the idea of fame plays a part in some of them. They have their moment in the sun and nothing gets more attention to what they see as their enemy or problem than to have it on national television. In a sense they have the same mindset and habits as a serial killer who focus on one type or group of people to target. killing outside of that they have rarely done. Killing a parent or animal before hand is often part of it and the exception to the rule. The idea that they would stray from this on any type of regularity is not likely.
 
I agree. This is something that needs a remedy and only through trying can we succeed or fail at it. Closing our minds to different solutions produces no results.

The fear is that it will fail and the failure will be directly our responsibility whereas illegal attacks are not our responsibility.

We see this notion rooted in several areas. Strangely, folks on this board will side with one notion and completely be against the other when the problem is very similar. For example, it has been stated that it is better to let a guilty person walk than to imprison or execute an innocent person. In short, we don't want to be directly responsible for doing harm to the wrong person and am willing to let people that do harm go free as a result. However, we think it is terrible when businesses do not allow concealed carry out of fear that CCW folks will shoot the wrong person and so would rather risk the potential harm of a criminal. It is the same song and dance, but a different POV.

Nobody wants to do the body count comparison for schools. We do know that once in a while, a CCW person harms others, either intentionally, by neglect, or my confusion (shoots the wrong person intentionally thinking the person was a threat). At the same time, we say it saves more lives than it wrongfully harms. While true, nobody wants to put children on the line.

Putting guns in schools, regardless if it is by cops (who are supposed to be highly trained but still manage to have issues) or by teachers (who aren't likely to ever have comparable training) does increase the risk to students that they will be harmed. It may be small, but most majorities in power want to be responsible for allowing that sort of thing to be able to happen.

The very thing this thread revolves around is the type of shootings these kids are committing.

It isn't just the kids that are shooting up schools. Adults do it as well.
 
For the run, hide crowd:

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/12/newtown-shooting-police-file-101561.html?hp=r3

Among the details: More than a dozen bodies, mostly children, were discovered packed "like sardines" in a bathroom where they had hidden. And the horrors encountered inside the school were so great that when police sent in paramedics, they tried to select ones capable of handling what they were about to witness.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/12/newtown-shooting-police-file-101561.html#ixzz2onAYnTL1

Oh, if only someone had a IPAD of death!
 
^^^

And wait till we get a nice hostage situation in which one of these well armed lunatics that have entered a school and already shot many takes the rest of the children/staff that are left hostage and the only armed individuals other then the lunatic are on the outside trying to negotiate and beg for the children's/staff lives. IMO, just a matter of time till we have this scenario.

Then when the negotiation go bad(as they often due with a deranged killer) and the deranged lunatic starts offing the rest of the hostages, we can always sit back and blame LE for not handling the situation properly. Guess having someone to blame helps to soothe our conscience.
 
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That's already happened in at least two instances. In some cases the children were molested or the shooter planned to molest them. Amish school and a high school - I would have to google the details.
 
That's already happened in at least two instances. In some cases the children were molested or the shooter planned to molest them. Amish school and a high school - I would have to google the details

Unbelievable!

So lets fortify our schools and not let anyone on the inside have a gun so that when a school shooter makes his mind up to kill a bunch of kids or a staff member and gets into this fortress of a school(which we all know can happen) LE will have a harder time accessing the school cause it will most likely be on lockdown.:rolleyes:
 
Found this interesting:
Last month, prosecutors issued a summary of the investigation that portrayed Lanza as obsessed with mass murders and afflicted with mental problems. But the summary said his motive for the massacre was a mystery and might never be known.
Motive, really? He was a Sociopath!

Lanza was diagnosed in 2006 with "profound autism spectrum disorder, with rigidity, isolation and a lack of comprehension of ordinary social interaction and communications," while also displaying symptoms of obsessive-compulsive disorder, according to Dr. Robert A. King, a professor at the Yale School of Medicine Child Study Center.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/12/newtown-shooting-police-file-101561.html#ixzz2onVE8pVP
Then:
But he also told investigators that he observed nothing in Lanza's behavior that would have predicted he would become a mass killer. Contacted by The Associated Press, King referred questions to the Yale University press office.

No signs? Did he mean signs like this?:

A former teacher of Lanza's was quoted as telling investigators that Lanza exhibited anti-social behavior, rarely interacted with other students and wrote obsessively "about battles, destruction and war."

"In all my years of experience, I have known (redacted) grade boys to talk about things like this, but Adam's level of violence was disturbing," the teacher told investigators. The teacher added: "Adam's creative writing was so graphic that it could not be shared."
Seems to me that information from other sources was not gathered or ignored. Seems a little more openness to the valuable information other people have and a little less "I got this" might have put Lanza on the radar.

I am not here just to point fingers at the mental health organization, but this type of thing has become typical. Refused information that can be had from outside sources that interact with the mentally ill almost on a daily basis is counterproductive. I have had first hand experience with the same behavior from more than one Dr. as well.

Another sign here:
The nurse, who met with Lanza in 2006 and 2007, said Lanza's mother declined to give him prescribed antidepressant and antianxiety medication after she reported that he had trouble raising his arm, something she attributed to the drug.

Koenig unsuccessfully tried to convince Nancy Lanza that the medicine was not responsible, and the mother failed to schedule a follow-up visit after her son missed an appointment, police said.

It also doesn't help that the mentally ill have rights that exceed necessity when someone shows the signs Lanza was showing long before the incident. This is where real change needs to happen IMO. The rights of the innocent have been trampled on because of bad policies and laws. Then along come Antis blaming the gun. Exploiting the disasters and the lives forever changed for the sake of an Agenda with no shame.
 
I dont have a problem with this but it would introduce a few new problems.

Troubled teenagers and school kids getting their hands on said "in school" weapons and using them in school or to shoot the teacher.
 
I dont have a problem with this but it would introduce a few new problems.

Troubled teenagers and school kids getting their hands on said "in school" weapons and using them in school or to shoot the teacher.
Though it is possible, it is more likely to happen as a crime of opportunity and not a planned out attack on a school.

These type of attacks are planned and ammunition is brought in larger amounts than you would likely find on a teacher as well.
 
It also doesn't help that the mentally ill have rights that exceed necessity when someone shows the signs Lanza was showing long before the incident.

Interesting notion about "showing signs" is that I have noticed on this board when somebody is disarmed because of such concerns, people fly into a frenzy over the violation of the second amendment. Graphic writing and imagination, depression, etc., aren't necessarily signs that a person will become a mass murderer. Edgar Allen Poe and Stephen King should be (should have been) dealt with accordingly if that was the case.

There are a lot more people out there that have such fixations and violent imaginations that never do harm than most people realize just like there are millions and millions of kids that see violent movies, play violent games, and enjoy them, and who never become violent criminals.

The retrospective view is ALWAYS easier.
 
Double Naught is correct. There are probably hundreds who exhibit such behavior and do nothing for each who act in violence. It is a difficult balance that inherently requires compromise and money. The more money the less compromise, but no one wants to put a few trillion into mental healthcare over the next decade.
 
Sociopath - that's a different defined category. Not Lanza.

Folks are very sloppy in their usage of terms. Insane, sociopath - etc. Nope - they have specific meanings.

Before you want mass diagnoses of mental illness and removal of gun rights - some historical reading might be useful.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/179/4070/250.abstract

Science 19 January 1973:
Vol. 179 no. 4070 pp. 250-258
DOI: 10.1126/science.179.4070.250

On Being Sane in Insane Places

D. L. Rosenhan

PDF - http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic625827.files/On_Being_Sane_In_Insane_Places-1.pdf
 
Does it really matter what fancy label we put on the shooter?

There is always plenty of time after the event to diagnose the 'why's and how's'. To even talk about obvious signs the shooter may have shown up to the event. Easy to do after the tragedy.

What this person is at the time of the event is an armed deranged killer that needs to be stopped ASAP. Period! And as the old saying goes "the best way to stop a BG with a gun is a GG with a gun".
 
shortwave said:
Does it really matter what fancy label we put on the shooter?...
Yes, it does.

  1. There's a saying, "The first step toward wisdom is calling things by their right names."

  2. Part of the exercise is trying to understand why people do such things and whether there might better ways of heading off these sorts of tragedies.
 
Interesting notion about "showing signs" is that I have noticed on this board when somebody is disarmed because of such concerns, people fly into a frenzy over the violation of the second amendment. Graphic writing and imagination, depression, etc., aren't necessarily signs that a person will become a mass murderer. Edgar Allen Poe and Stephen King should be (should have been) dealt with accordingly if that was the case.
The people who are most likely to do what Lanza did are not the same as those you describe and need pointed out before fears set in (with good reason). IMO he (Lanza) was not diagnosed properly and there is proof already out as well as more to come.

Two problems I see with mental illness that need attention IMHO:

1) Sloppy work by mental health doctors is increasingly risking the safety of everyone and there is no real set of checks and balances to prevent it. I have seen it on many occasions. I have tried to deal with it but the mental health organization is very powerful and don't take complaints seriously.

Likely due to many family members who are dealing with the frustrations of an ill family member. They tend to lash out at doctors and mental health organization's. In response defenses go up and real problems get buried in the muck. It often takes an act of congress(figuratively speaking) for just one problem with just one patient or dr. to be acknowledged.

One example of MHS problems written by a Psychiatrist here:
http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/12/how-to-bring-sanity-to-our-mental-health-system

2) Patient rights being used as a means to defend outside influences and control patients through fear.
I have a brother that has been in and out of state mental health hospitals and housing. He has had three different diagnosis over the past 27 years. He has been on every medication for mental illness that you can imagine. He became a human guinea pig. Not able to find the real diagnosis really put him and the family through years of turbulence. When approached by the family requesting a change of doctors and facility to somewhere else we were told that my brother would have to sign his rights away and that do psychiatrist/psychologist would treat him if he did sign. We thought it a joke and decided to ask around first. Turns out that no one who took Medicaid/Medicare would take him as a patient without signing his rights to them first. Within two days my brother was contacted and threatened to lose his housing as well. He was scared and refused to sign.

We contacted two Lawyers who made it very simple for us. We did not have the money to fight it. We did not have the time (years) to fight it. Finally neither would commit to this kind of fight and recommended other avenues. The system (by design) made it hard enough (as it usually does) to make us go away.

They finally found a combination of medication to stabilize him through trial and error in 2000. A few years ago the only medication that worked was banned by the FDA and 3 years later he is more stable but nothing like he was.

Just by accident the true nature of his sudden illness was revealed when his right jaw sagged and started to look like Sylvester Stalone. His mind was the same, just unable to move or feel the right side of his face. He was taken in to have a series of test for stroke. During a CAT scan it was determined that he had a stroke, however the stroke was several years old. The eventual diagnosis for his current condition was an infection in the nerves and antibiotics cured it up. So it turns out that my brother had a stroke that was missed back in 1985 and just discovered in 2010.

Just another example very similar to what my family has went through dealing with the system here:
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323463704578495154217291958

Here Dr. Kieth goes into some detail about Lanza and problems with the MHS:
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/12/17/why-cant-america-care-for-mentally-ill/
Not only does he point out that the guns were not the problem ( in his opinion) but the problems that plague the mentally ill and cause these problems to become more dangerous as we go on with a broken MHS.

What is wrong, exactly?

Here is the truth: Today, even a mentally ill young man with a known propensity for violence, or even a history of serious violence, is likely to receive just an hour a week of counseling (if that) by a social worker.

He is likely have an unclear diagnosis of his condition and to be on a list of constantly changing, very powerful psychoactive medications prescribed by a nurse.

He is also likely to be turned away -- repeatedly --by emergency room social workers who act as gatekeepers for insurance companies to restrict access to inpatient psychiatric treatment.
If admitted to a psychiatric hospital, he will likely be triaged quickly through an often-incompetent “tune up” of medications that might accomplish nothing and then be sent back home as soon as he “contracts for safety”—simply promising a social worker that he won’t kill anyone.
The biggest concern for me (as well as others) today with changes in the MHS is that anyone who might have some depression or emotional issues on medication will be disallowed to own or possess a firearm. Understandable and scary that it can be a power source capable exploitation whether through intention or not. However we can't ignore issues with the MHS that threaten A2 rights through their shortcomings. There can and should be changes. The question is how while leaving 2A secure. Though I don't have the answer I believe that it is possible for the right people to get together and come up with a reasonable solution before the Antis can exploit the problem and abuse it. Not only that it is better that something is done than to ignore it and allow it to be exploited. Wait too long and reversing the damage is unlikely.
 
Originally Posted by shortwave
Does it really matter what fancy label we put on the shooter?...

Originally posted by Tom Servo : If we're to understand the factors in this, yes

Originally posted by Frank Ettin: Yes, it does.

There's a saying, "The first step toward wisdom is calling things by their right names."


Part of the exercise is trying to understand why people do such things and whether there might better ways of heading off these sorts of tragedies


Obviously, we can, should and do study the events of the lives of the shooters in these cases the best we can and try to categorize/profile or find similarities in their actions prior to the event that may have caused them to do what they did.
The reason I also wrote this:

There is always plenty of time after the event to diagnose the 'why's and how's'. To even talk about obvious signs the shooter may have shown up to the event. Easy to do after the tragedy.

But during the actual school shooting, these shooters are killers. With one thing in mind. Killing. And at that point it does not matter the killers reasons, whether he's a diagnosed Schitzo or he's doing what he's doing cause his hemorrhoids are flared up. Again, at that point he's a killer. And usually has his pick of unarmed innocent targets which he knew he would have when he entered the school.

And this thread is about whether we should be allowing our teachers/staff to be armed to defend themselves and others against these killers.
 
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But during the actual school shooting, these shooters are killers. With one thing in mind. Killing. And at that point it does not matter the killers reasons, whether he's a diagnosed Schitzo or he's doing what he's doing cause his hemorrhoids are flared up. Again, at that point he's a killer. And usually has his pick of unarmed innocent targets which he knew he would have when he entered the school.

And this thread is about whether we should be allowing our teachers/staff to be armed to defend themselves and others against these killers.

Exactly. The armed school staffer is the last line of defense, not the first. Preventative action makes good sense but all the preventative actions in the world cannot be 100% effective, and school staff WILL BE the last line of defense for those who fall through the cracks of widespread and even aggressive prevention. The only question at hand is when that happens, and the only thing between your child and a killer is a teacher, would you permit that teacher to have a gun, or would you restrict them to staplers and pencils or their bodies as bullet shields as happens most of the time.
 
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