Teachers with firearms
- Thread starter johnelmore
- Start date
There's at least 18 states(didn't see Ohio on that list so assuming list needs updated) that will allow campus carry with some restriction. Each state seems to be different with some faculty needing training while others needing permission from the Administrator.
Will, don't know if it's cause it's New Years, the weather, martians landing or something retarded that I am doing but I've yet to link a site yet today that has come up right...
Sooo....this is what came up when searching:
Guns In Schools: Firearms Already Allowed In 18 States With ...
www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/15/guns-in-schools
In the weeks following the Sandy Hook massacre, a number of state lawmakers' proposals to fight school gun violence by arming teachers have been met with ...
Will, don't know if it's cause it's New Years, the weather, martians landing or something retarded that I am doing but I've yet to link a site yet today that has come up right...
Sooo....this is what came up when searching:
Guns In Schools: Firearms Already Allowed In 18 States With ...
www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/15/guns-in-schools
In the weeks following the Sandy Hook massacre, a number of state lawmakers' proposals to fight school gun violence by arming teachers have been met with ...
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Don't know the answer to that.
I know here in Ohio a couple school district Superintendents are letting the teachers cc in class but do not know exact number. This is new policy procedure for Ohio as well as other states but not so new for other states such as Utah and possibly Texas.
I know here in Ohio a couple school district Superintendents are letting the teachers cc in class but do not know exact number. This is new policy procedure for Ohio as well as other states but not so new for other states such as Utah and possibly Texas.
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Double Naught Spy
New member
Link still does not work.
I actually posted that incident here...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=523490&highlight=stabbing
Here is the article I cited...
http://www.4utah.com/content/about_...ke-city-smiths/d/story/NDNrL1gxeE2rsRhrWCM9dQ
Yep, a CCW did good. It happens, but just because it can happen doesn't mean it will happen or that the untrained teachers. With that said, what do you know about the CCW who stopped the stabbing? Was he an Assan, Meli, Wilson, Myrick? You don't know what his background was. He may never had had any training, but maybe he did. He wasn't dealing with stampeding dozens of people, screaming kids or the like, as a teachers and witnesses have described in school and mall shootings.
Giving a gun to a random regular person does not make them magically fine marksmen, tactically proficient, crowd crisis managers, or situationally aware, but this is what folks seem to be expecting random regular teachers to be by arming them for when the next Adam Lanza shows up. That of course assumes that as volunteer self armed teachers, they didn't just happen to leave their gun in their car that day, at home, locked in their desk while they are out with the class at recess, lunch, etc.
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Double Naught Spy
New member
You just copy and paste from the address bar, shortwave...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/15/guns-in-schools-firearms-_n_2482168.html
http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_...chools-with-little-restriction-in-many-states
Yep, 18 or more states do not have laws specifically disallowing carry in schools. Connecticut is one of them and was in place when Lanza shot up Newtown. Why weren't those teachers self armed? How many tried to petition the proper authorities to make that happen? Where is the outrage from those teachers that they could have prevented the attack but weren't allowed?
That is the real problem with this notion that volunteer, random, self armed teachers are going to be protecting our children. Teachers seem no better than the general US population or vast majority of concealed carry gun owners who somehow manage to not carry on a regular basis.
Sorry, but it is absolutely ridiculous to expect random self armed teachers with no training to stop school shooters. Unless they are required to be trained and required to carry, you can't count on them even having a gun with them just like you can't count on the vast majority of CCW people to be armed when they are out and about.
So yeah, 18 or more states and yet do you know of any examples of where said untrained teachers in those states have secured permission and stopped a shooting? How about the lists of protests or complaints to the NRA by teachers in those states to help encourage schools or districts to allow them to carry, because as you point out, it is legal. It can be done.
If the teachers aren't behind it, then our yammering out it is pretty pointless. There is no evidence that the Newtown teachers were trying to get permission or had even put in requests to carry before the shooting.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/15/guns-in-schools-firearms-_n_2482168.html
http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_...chools-with-little-restriction-in-many-states
Yep, 18 or more states do not have laws specifically disallowing carry in schools. Connecticut is one of them and was in place when Lanza shot up Newtown. Why weren't those teachers self armed? How many tried to petition the proper authorities to make that happen? Where is the outrage from those teachers that they could have prevented the attack but weren't allowed?
That is the real problem with this notion that volunteer, random, self armed teachers are going to be protecting our children. Teachers seem no better than the general US population or vast majority of concealed carry gun owners who somehow manage to not carry on a regular basis.
Sorry, but it is absolutely ridiculous to expect random self armed teachers with no training to stop school shooters. Unless they are required to be trained and required to carry, you can't count on them even having a gun with them just like you can't count on the vast majority of CCW people to be armed when they are out and about.
So yeah, 18 or more states and yet do you know of any examples of where said untrained teachers in those states have secured permission and stopped a shooting? How about the lists of protests or complaints to the NRA by teachers in those states to help encourage schools or districts to allow them to carry, because as you point out, it is legal. It can be done.
If the teachers aren't behind it, then our yammering out it is pretty pointless. There is no evidence that the Newtown teachers were trying to get permission or had even put in requests to carry before the shooting.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
That is true and mirrors the larger populations of even gun friendly states.
In TX - do we ever think that we would 10% of the eligible population get CHLs. Even then the vast majority don't carry. They wanted the license for their 'car' or 'truck' gun. As if those would be of use in most situations (yes, sometimes, they have but rarely).
Of those who get the license or permit, how many are 'natural' warriors who care more about caliber than training.
It's grim picture for progun arguments. However, my point is that I disagree with locale proscriptions against carry and differential proscriptions against teachers.
That is different from proactively arming unwilling teachers or fantasies that Coach Big Belly, Principals Fudd and Grundy, etc. can be turned into pseudo-swat cops.
In TX - do we ever think that we would 10% of the eligible population get CHLs. Even then the vast majority don't carry. They wanted the license for their 'car' or 'truck' gun. As if those would be of use in most situations (yes, sometimes, they have but rarely).
Of those who get the license or permit, how many are 'natural' warriors who care more about caliber than training.
It's grim picture for progun arguments. However, my point is that I disagree with locale proscriptions against carry and differential proscriptions against teachers.
That is different from proactively arming unwilling teachers or fantasies that Coach Big Belly, Principals Fudd and Grundy, etc. can be turned into pseudo-swat cops.
Fishing_Cabin
New member
GEM said:
I tend to agree Glenn. I know several folks around here in NC that have a carry permit, but never carry. The few that occasionally or regularly do that I know, I could count on one hand. Once the novelty wears off, and the routine starts to sit in again, most tend to start leaving the firearm at home or in the car or at work.
I don't think there is just 1 solution that will prevent another incident. Its going to take more layers and redundancy, to start to make things safer at schools.
Glenn, I view the requirement that teachers...
- Be actually trained (at no cost to them)
- Be on-the-clock/receive educrat credit for that training
- Be given the same/presumed legal protection similar to law enforcement...
...to be to their personal advantage; up the odds of their effectiveness if the
balloon goes up; and to blunt the emotional criticism of the bleeding heart "gun-
free-zoners."
I still submit that while in-school/in-the-classroom/on-the-job, that they are
legally considered agents of the state/county/school (what-have-you).
Their status and actions fall under that purview. I would still like the lawyers
who have expereince (or case law) in this area weigh in -- either for or against.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
That would apply to public school teachers only?
However, rather than go the route of liability similar to the police- why not just legislate that the school system, etc. is not liable for the actions of the CCW type. The individual is responsible for his or her actions.
The argument of liability was used to convince businesses to not allow carry by customers in their locations. If the customer did X, is the store responsible for letting guns in?
Now, an employee is different. But if the employee in William Sonoma's picks up a chef's knife and goes nuts - should the store be responsible for caring those knives?
We need our legal folks to opine on these liabilities.
However, rather than go the route of liability similar to the police- why not just legislate that the school system, etc. is not liable for the actions of the CCW type. The individual is responsible for his or her actions.
The argument of liability was used to convince businesses to not allow carry by customers in their locations. If the customer did X, is the store responsible for letting guns in?
Now, an employee is different. But if the employee in William Sonoma's picks up a chef's knife and goes nuts - should the store be responsible for caring those knives?
We need our legal folks to opine on these liabilities.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Because folks like you want them there for the express purpose of protecting the children and being allowed to do so BY LAW over the considerations of the school districts, the same sorts of legal privileges afforded to LEOs at schools.
You are making a special case argument. You are not arguing that every Tom, Dick, and Harry with a CCW be allowed to carry at schools. You are talking about arming teachers for the protection of the children.
You may not regard them as armed agents of the state, but you want them to have armed agents of the state status in schools. Interesting.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
That's not my position - where did you get that?
1. I just want to allow carry by teachers. I didn't speak to others but I want to allow carry by any licensed individual. I have no problem with that.
2. I did not opine on protecting the students. I said I wanted the ability to carry and to let the carrier make the choice of action to be theirs. No specific requirement to act. I think I said, the teacher could flee out the window if they desired.
3. I never argued for them to be armed agents of the state.
Why quote me on principles I did not state? Huh?
If the armed teacher protects others, that is just fine but not a mandated duty.
1. I just want to allow carry by teachers. I didn't speak to others but I want to allow carry by any licensed individual. I have no problem with that.
2. I did not opine on protecting the students. I said I wanted the ability to carry and to let the carrier make the choice of action to be theirs. No specific requirement to act. I think I said, the teacher could flee out the window if they desired.
3. I never argued for them to be armed agents of the state.
Why quote me on principles I did not state? Huh?
If the armed teacher protects others, that is just fine but not a mandated duty.
seeker_two
New member
Begs another question: If a teacher currently confronts a shooter and kills that shooter with an improvised weapon (chair, scissors, etc.), does the school district currently protect said teacher from liability as an agent of the district?....
Again, begs the question as to how the schools that are currently letting the teachers cc on campus are dealing with the legal aspects of doing so.
Thanks DNS.
I know to copy and paste the address bar as I've done it many times in the past but for some reason in the last couple days something has went haywire on this end?
Will try to link something again today to see if issue is still there. If it is I'm going to get ahold of our server.
www.guns.com/2013/07/10/ohio-school-district-will-allow...
See if this works...
Just checked it and came back to edit that it is for now.
See if this works...
Just checked it and came back to edit that it is for now.
Take it to the ultimate (before returning control of your TV set):
- Armed intruder comes through the door.
- Teach throws blackboard eraser at him.
- Chalk dust triggers fatal asthma attack.
- Intruder's family sues...
( I was going for a blunt #2 pencil stabbing, but decided to go for the gold here)
More seriously, actual use of a firearm has taken on almost mythical status in the
eyes of the mainstream media and bleeding hearts -- even when used for good.
("The children in the entire school were all traumatized by the explosion, and
those in the actual room saw blood and brains..." )
You get the picture.
You might as well say the word "nuclear" as far as emotional response and the legal
parasites crawling out of the woodwork. It'll be a feeding frenzy.
- Armed intruder comes through the door.
- Teach throws blackboard eraser at him.
- Chalk dust triggers fatal asthma attack.
- Intruder's family sues...
( I was going for a blunt #2 pencil stabbing, but decided to go for the gold here)
More seriously, actual use of a firearm has taken on almost mythical status in the
eyes of the mainstream media and bleeding hearts -- even when used for good.
("The children in the entire school were all traumatized by the explosion, and
those in the actual room saw blood and brains..." )
You get the picture.
You might as well say the word "nuclear" as far as emotional response and the legal
parasites crawling out of the woodwork. It'll be a feeding frenzy.
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Sparks1957
New member
Whatever other issues are involved, this discussion still comes down to this question... why can't teachers be allowed to carry just like any other law-abiding citizens in the jurisdiction as long they are not charged with the duty to protect others?
Whatever people are saying here, teachers are not agents of the state. They are citizens hired by their local school districts to teach, and are already entrusted with enormous responsibility for the kids of the community. The vast majority of teachers are devoted professionals who care deeply for their students.
As long they have received enough training to earn a CC license if their jurisdictions require one, why should they be subjected to a higher standard than other citizens?
That sign outside my school that says the building is a weapons-free zone is an invitation to a crazy person who wants to inflict maximum destruction with a minimal chance of retribution... that scenario needs to change in order to make schools less inviting targets.
Whatever people are saying here, teachers are not agents of the state. They are citizens hired by their local school districts to teach, and are already entrusted with enormous responsibility for the kids of the community. The vast majority of teachers are devoted professionals who care deeply for their students.
As long they have received enough training to earn a CC license if their jurisdictions require one, why should they be subjected to a higher standard than other citizens?
That sign outside my school that says the building is a weapons-free zone is an invitation to a crazy person who wants to inflict maximum destruction with a minimal chance of retribution... that scenario needs to change in order to make schools less inviting targets.
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