Taurus Judge

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Glenn: A couple of things....

1. How many of us could make that shot with a .38Spl snub or a mini-.380ACP or any of the other "appropriate" CCW's?

2. If the .410 shot round is inappropriate for a situation, why not rotate the cylinder to the .45Colt rounds loaded? Hickok45 seems to hit what he's aiming at.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRlry5KH6I0

Adapt your tactics to your weapon.....
 
I don't want to limited by my weapon's choice to a short range shot.

Rotating to a 45 LC under fire is a fantasy.

I can make reasonable longer range shots with the Glock pictured and I can carry a 19 easily if carry is allowed. I am not a bad shot with a snubby either. Certainly better than with birdshot or 00. I value some chance at precision in the real world and not the square range with no one else around.

The Judge is a short range weapon with 410. If you say carry 45 LC - then you have much much better choices in guns. 9 to 16 rounds of quality 9, 40 or 45 vs. a cylinder of 45 LC.

And don't tell me that all gun fights are short range and 3 shots. You must be able to deal with low frequency but reasonable to occur extremes.


It's very simple.
 
So many experts - So many opinions...

No one is twisting anyone's arm here to purchase a Judge. If a person already has their mind made up that they perceive that it's definitely not the right choice for them due to hypothetical situations, don't buy one.

It's great to be an American!
 
Some of these threads crack me up. I buy things because I want them, I hope others do too. If I had the disposeable cash, I'd have a bunch of things I don't need but rather want as far as firearms go, and I'm sure some would only be wall art.

To the OP, there is enough positive info on these to make your reasons for getting one a no brainer.
 
Glenn: I'll agree with your last post....except for one thing....

Rotating to a 45 LC under fire is a fantasy.
Click to expand...

Plenty of old revolver shooters have practice in rotating the cylinder under stress....esp. those who carry a snakeshot load as their first round. All it takes is practice (you are practicing with your CCW, right?).

I'm not saying the Judge/PD is the optimal SD weapon. But it's hardly useless, either. Holes are holes....whether they're .350" or .455".....-
 
I practice quite intensively and know the human factors literature. I will stand by my evaluation that under fire, rotating a cylinder to get to a 45 LC is going to be terribly error prone.

Yes, a hole is a hole but I'd rather carry 16 9mm over the hypothetical advantage of bird shot or 00 and then some 45 LC in a much limited amount.

Yes, it's a gun. But with limited potential for intense critical incidents.

My NAA 22 S is a gun and might save my life in a close encounter but it's limited.
 
Well... I know the judge in many discussions has already been convicted and sentenced to being worthless. However, it is our bedstand gun.
When I first saw one, I was of two minds about it myself, read a few posts and then decided to not waffle back and forth on others opinions and get one and form an opinion from personal experience. My LGS is a good guy and I shared my concerns with him before the purchase and we agreed on a fair return in value should I not be happy. I then bought a pack of 45 and a box of Win PDX1 for it.

My wife and I shot a few rounds to get the feel for it. We both thought it was a nice gun. I'm not going to get into super specifics as to exact accuracy, as I've never tested it for anything other than rough grouping at 20' (It's intended use for us was to be as a bedroom protection middle of the night thing.)

Set up a roughly 3x5 3/4" plywood target with an old heavy quilt on it and then had my wife stand about 20' away and practice picking the gun up from a table and bringing it into alignment with the board. I did the same. Once we got fairly consistent, I had her keep her eyes closed and repeat the same maneuver. The thought here was that it would likely be dark or nearly low light, or backlit if someone made it to the bedroom. I wanted to see how well she (and I) could point with it in the dark.

All I can say is that when either of us shot the target - I would not want to be standing there. My wife's first shot was a little low - and the biggest batch of holes would mean at the very least, a male intruder likely wouldn't be passing on anymore genetic material to another generation. I shot high (guess it makes sense, I set the target center of mass up about 5 1/2' high, and I'm a good foot taller than my wife) Either way. I was more than satisfied that it would do the job. I was happy with the performance of the ammo, and my wife and I both felt competent enough with the Judge. What more can one ask.

*edit* While ours was purchased as a home defense gun, that is what I ever only saw it as, or as a close in varmint eradicator. I consider it to be well designed for that task. Thought it might also work great clearing out pigeons or rats in a barn setting. Never considered it as a carry weapon. I agree that there are better tools for that job.
 
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I don't own a Judge, don't want one either. Lots of better choices IMHO for anything they do. But I do like them because people who shoot them seem not to reload so there's a nice supply of 45 Colt brass at the range!

Shaking like a leaf on a windy day you turn the three cell on and there at 12 feet is an intruder you do not recognize. He has a gun too. You want the first round to HIT NOT MISS. Number 8 bird shot in his face will give you the chance to get your 45 long colt set up as the second shot into his body
Click to expand...

Looks like the 000 at 5 yards in the pics above has spread out about an inch. How big of a pattern does a Judge give with #8 shot at 4 yards? Has it even come out of the shot cup yet? Why not just use the 45 Colt into his face in the first place?
 
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Here is the spread of #4 shot at 5 yards.
I highlighted the holes to see them better.

Shooting004highlight.jpg
 
It makes my point. 5 yards is very close in some reasonable scenarios. There will be longer distances. Certainly, in my workplace or a horror like Aurora. Look how many pellets you have off target.

In the recent Empire State shooting today, there are reports of friendly fire hits by the police. Imagine a gun fight with multiple shooters and a distance with Judges and 410.
 
"It makes my point..."

I don't want to sound mean-spirited, but ~
What, exactly, is your point? -- If were are a bird and shot with #4 birdshot at 15 feet, you have a pretty good chance of escaping with minor wounds?

Whoever thinks the Judge's primary purpose is for hunting, then they are mistaken. If you are going to use it for its intended purpose -- close quarters self defense -- then you certainly don't want to use birdshot.

Furthermore, if I decided to go deer hunting with a shotgun, I certainly wouldn't consider loading it with #4 shot loads.
 
My point is, yet again, that too many people are in love with the idea of the 410 as wonder SD round without considering that you may have a situation that is farther away than a few yards.

I have seen folks propose that shooting bird shot or other 410 rounds at the Aurora shooter would distract him. Yep, and spread pellets into others.

If you just buy the mantra that every SD shooting is at 3 yards, that's very nice but not true.

Aurora certainly belies that misunderstanding of central tendency statistics.

Learn out to shoot an efficacious SD round from a reasonable gun rather than depending on some gimmick. Take it out for snakes, yippee!
 
The point was also that at only 5 yards, without somebody shooting back at you to add to the stress, and even with apparently decent point of aim hits, you launched 4 pellets past the target.

Those pellets would continue elsewhere.

Stressed out, under threat, odds are your accuracy would suffer, and more than 4 pellets would be flying downrange.

At 5 yards, with my preferred carry pistols, a target like yours would have one ragged hole punched in the center.
 
While my PD Poly is used as a travelling companion in a holster secured along side the seat of my truck it's most likely use would be a very short range. However even at 10 yards, 3 yards farther than the standard CCW qualifying distance, it keeps 000 buck in a tight group, and on target.
3 rounds Federal Premium Personal Defense Handgun Ammunition ...
Judgetest008-2.jpg

(the larger holes ripped through the target on the bottom right area are from the plastic wads in the rounds.)

However I have changed my preference for the Winchester PDX1 with the discs, and BB shot because of the wide spread of the smaller shot.
1 round Winchester 410 PDX1 Defensive Disc ammunition.

Judgetest010-2.jpg
 
I only posted the picture of #4 because 45-auto wanted to know what the birdshot spread was like.
I do not carry birdshot in my Judge when I carry it, I use Federal 000 buck or 45LC depending on if where I am carrying it. Either round groups just fine out past 15 yards.

And at 5 yards, there are four 36 cal holes with one shot. 20 if I fire all rounds.
 
I like weird stuff, weird guns with weird calibers or weird ammo. Alternate solutions to everyday problems can have their applications... So the judge has me intrigued.

The 410 handgun shotshell seems to send a lot of shot and shrapnel downrange in a pretty tight group if you use the Federal 000. I know because I used it. 45LC performance is blah. If I want load this with 45, I can't keep wondering why I just don't get a proper 44 revolver and get dead accuracy without the weird clumsy front-heaviness of the Judge.

Then I had an epiphany, at 5 yards and at panic reaction times I have no problems hitting anything in front of me with near-perfect accuracy, and how much better is one or two shotshells vs. JHP 40 or 357SIG, or for that matter a 44. I'm guessing not at all...
 
See you understand! Haha!

I just look at my work environment (where I can't carry - bah) but if I did, and faced with a nut - the distances are just to far for shot. Even with my 1300 and flight control Federal - I wouldn't want to be launching rounds that spread.

Repeating myself, blah, blah.
 
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