Target Stores - No Guns Please

So how do you promote open carry without open carrying?
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Through the legislators.
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Nice response, and all, but let's think this through. If Texas passes OC for pistols next year (likely just for CHL holders, but whatever), the situation will be largely the same as it is now;
-ambivalent people/police ignorant or unsure of the rules
-ambivalent people/police at large still unused to seeing visible sidearms or longarms
-MAIGers will still be staunchly opposed and call in the police when they do see someone carrying
-dummies with no fashion sense or manners will still carry where they probably shouldn't

So we will still be getting MWAG calls, people will still be scared, and MAIG will still have opportunities to harp on People of Wal-Mart who insist on making fools of themselves. I dunno, maybe people really will somehow be less fearful of pistols when they see them, but somehow I doubt it; I simply think their smaller size will make it slightly less likely the average OC'er will be spotted during their errands :rolleyes:

If we actually do want the public to be accepting of firearms in daily life, at some point we actually do have to start having them on our persons in public. OCT is approaching the solution of the problem all wrong, but they have at least identified the legitimate problem; that people are needlessly fearful of guns out of ignorance, and how to overcome that?

TCB
 
Got no problem with them "Asking me not to bring in my guns" - I'll simply decline to go along with their request. That's the status quo. Don't see an issue here.

Now, the day that they say guns are banned (i.e. if I see one of those little signs with the red circle & slash), then I'll duly cooperate with their ban, boycott them, and tell them why I'm boycotting, in no uncertain terms.

But I carry concealed.

The issue gets more complicated for the open carriers, particularly in states where open carry is legal but concealed isn't!

Then the question would become thus: OK, they're asking me not to do X. I'm going to decline their little request and do X; i.e. carry openly in the store, as is my right, as trespass law requires specific, contemporaneous cease-and-desist demands.

Then, the ball's in their court. Are the going to ask me to leave then or not?

That's the key question. I suspect that the answer is, that "it depends". Probably depends on how pro- or anti-gun your area is - they may set regional policies on that from the top levels. Or maybe they will leave that up to their store managers, in which case it depends upon how pro- or anti-gun both the manager and/or the locale is, on the whole. Remember, managers get a profitability bonus, so if they de-centralize the decision, then even if the store manager is anti-gun, they may not actually say anything to anyone open carrying, in a pro-gun area.
 
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[QUOTEI am remembering the outrage of many TFL members of how CJ Grisham, a true hero war veteran military intel officer, was purportedly so mistreated, when engaged in nothing more than a Boyscout hike with his son down a rural road in the city limits of Temple, carrying to protect against wild hogs and mountain lions, the cops who should never have been called out to the 911 call, should never have engaged him, because he was doing nothing more than being a citizen who was doing nothing wrong or suspicious, should not have made anyone uncomfortable. I don't recall anyone calling him a media whore or idiot then. Nobody seems to be playing the true war hero veteran card now either.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...grisham+arrest

][/QUOTE]

Doublenaught:Please refer to posts 176 and 178 in the post you linked to..I think you will find I am not fickle on this matter,and I did more or less ,in other words,call him a media whore and an idiot.

Since then,I also made another post,and I will comment here from memory,without retracing the research...I may fuzz it a bit.

I reviewed the infamous Grisham video

1)Some citizen called in concerned.Like it or not,citizen felt Grishams arms were out of context and alarming.It is silly denial to argue about it.
2)Dispatcher contacts officer.Does the officer have an option to decline checking it out?
3)Officer arrives at Grisham.Grisham has presumably loaded carbine slung at ready.Fair to say Grisham could fire several rounds before officer could draw sidearm?Fair to say its a reasonable time for the officer to be concerned about his own safety?IMO,if this officer is complacent in this situation,he may well die prematurely.
4)Officer clearly states"Don't be touching it" Grisham responds"I'm not touching it" Message sent and received.
5)Officer reaches to the QD to detach the carbine from Grisham.(Reason:Carbine detached,threat removed,officer is no longer in Life/Death mode..they can talk.Likely,if all is well,Grisham can be on his way)

But,no.The critical moment that changes everything,Grisham grabs the carbine and says"Don't you disarm me"
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Now,go review a bunch of roadside dashcam videos about how fast a roadside stop can result in a struggle,and sometimes a dead cop.Grisham,no one else,initiated a physical resistance to being disarmed.Like it or not,the cops survival in a situation like that is immediate overwhelming force and handcuffs
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I heard on the radio today only two demonstrators showed up for a TOC demo.No protestors.

Good.Down to two idiot media whores.

I'll say it again,there are those who would love to turn Texas from a Red to Blue state.

If the gun culture can be reduced to threatening idiots via OC demos and unfavorable media,it will have major impact at the polls in November.

Like it or not,intentional or not,TOC is painting Texas blue.
 
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I went to a Target in Texas, and they did not have a 30.06 sign, which is the sign that legally prohibits a CHL from entering property. They're probably asking as a courtesy
 
They're probably asking as a courtesy
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The problem is, that courtesy will be repaid with rudeness by gun owners. The day of the announcement, Target's Facebook page was rife with posts from gun owners saying they'd either boycott Target or defy the request. That's not the best way to make friends.

The other large bloc of posters were variations on the theme of, "thank you for making your stores safe for me and my children."

So, here's the problem. This "request" didn't come out of the blue. There was a big meeting at Target headquarters. Imagine a room full of suits. There's a whiteboard on the wall. There's a vertical line running down the board.

On the right side is this picture:

OpenCarryTexasTarget.png


That's the gun people. That's the problem they've been called in to deal with.

On the left side are letters, emails, and pamphlets from Moms Demand Action and their affiliates. They read in various tones of pleading and remind the executives that these are people who love Target and love shopping there and won't someone please think of the children?

Are there any letters on the right side of the board? Nope. Just that picture. Everybody's eyes keep darting over to it during the meeting.

The guys in the meeting aren't gun people. They couldn't care less about the 2nd Amendment. They have a problem, and the gun people are causing it. The whole thing is a big headache that they want to go away.

So, they start with the least controversial step possible. They make a public request. If it solves the problem, everyone sleeps well. If it doesn't, they have to have that meeting again. Guess what happens then? We get an actual no-carry policy.

Let's all remind ourselves that this didn't have to happen.
 
There is a world of difference between OC-ing a rifle on a Boy Scout hike down a rural road in an area known to have mountain lions, and OC-ing down Aisle #9 in a metropolitan Target store, an area known to have Oreos.
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The reality of the threat of mountain lions is virtually non-existent here in Texas as is Grisham's claimed fear of feral hogs. Grisham's loose cannon response then isn't really any different than his organization's activities now.

As for threats, the folks in Target were much more likely to be the victims of a robbery than Grisham and his kid ever were to be victims of a mountain lion. Plenty of predators stalk the isles of large chain stores and they aren't looking for Oreos.

Grisham's claimed justification really was bogus.
 
No feral hogs ever seen my closest Target and there are hogs right across the big highway from the Target. A couple of miles away there is a neat wilderness part and we've had a pack of hogs (or whatever they are called in a group) run across our path.

That being said, we don't hike with ARs. Concealed handguns are just fine.

The folks who claim that the display of ARs or AKs by Deliverance like cosplayers have no conceptualization of attitude change techniques.
 
In the past, someone would have a fit that there were no guns for sale in Target. That got old after awhile.

I recently saw one guy say that he boycotts any department store that doesn't sell guns and ammo.

Some people need to take a valium.
 
If Target doesn't want guns in their stores, how come they have a big red bullseye on all of them?
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By all means, point that out to their management. I'm sure it'll do wonders for their perception of us.
 
Double Naught Spy said:
Spats McGee said:
There is a world of difference between OC-ing a rifle on a Boy Scout hike down a rural road in an area known to have mountain lions, and OC-ing down Aisle #9 in a metropolitan Target store, an area known to have Oreos.
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The reality of the threat of mountain lions is virtually non-existent here in Texas as is Grisham's claimed fear of feral hogs. Grisham's loose cannon response then isn't really any different than his organization's activities now.

As for threats, the folks in Target were much more likely to be the victims of a robbery than Grisham and his kid ever were to be victims of a mountain lion. Plenty of predators stalk the isles of large chain stores and they aren't looking for Oreos.

Grisham's claimed justification really was bogus.
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So what if his claims were bogus? I frankly don't care if they were. There are still critical differences in context here. OC down a dirt road where there's no wildlife more dangerous than Peter Cottontail? Seems fine to me. Hold a "demonstration" that involves OC on someone else's private property? Still wholly inappropriate.

I've grown quite weary of the OC idiots failure to recognize that they are the reason that stores are requesting that nobody bring guns to their stores.
 
we've had a pack of hogs (or whatever they are called in a group)
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That would be "sounder." And LOL at "Deliverance Cosplayers" :D. I'll have to remember that if I ever have the misfortune of encountering one of these animals ("you here to make 'em squeal like a piggy?" :p)

TCB
 
The reality of the threat of mountain lions is virtually non-existent here in Texas as is Grisham's claimed fear of feral hogs.
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So what if his claims were bogus? I frankly don't care if they were.
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According to the Supreme Court in Heller, we don't get to make that "bogus" determination on public lands. The core of the right is self defense. The same logic that gets him banned from carrying on a road - the expectation that if he wins the bad luck lottery he should run home, THEN Get his rifle and run back to kill the hog mangling his son- because the chances of wildlife are slim is the same logic - the expectation that home invasion robbers will wait for him to unlock reassemble, and load his handgun- that has us locking up or rendering inoperable firearms kept in house in affluent and low crime neighborhoods. And we don't get to do that.
 
Just a data point. Went to Target yesterday and looked for 30.06 signs. None present.

They did have the standard "unlicensed carry" prohibition that is standard where alcoholic beverages are sold, but they have always had that.
 
I had to go to Austin today and stopped at Cabelas on the way. I note that they check all guns, unless concealed.

So what do the Deliverance Cosplayers think of that? I doubt the door monitors would let loaded ARs past them. So is Cabela's violating their rights and being tools of Bloomberg?

Walking around with unloaded long arms negates their self-defense arguments.
 
So is Cabela's violating their rights and being tools of Bloomberg?
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According to them, yes. I've heard no end of gripes about cold ranges and gun shop policies being the death knell for the 2nd Amendment.

Again, it's about their rights taking precedence over anything else.
 
Here's an interesting take - leave the restaurant and make the OC'ers pay.

http://www.pqed.org/2014/06/how-should-people-respond-to-open-carry.html

The action point is that you cannot discern an OC posture at low ready from an Aurora type shooter.

If you know this story (the deputy is a respected member of the gun commuity):

http://www.policeone.com/officer-sh...-for-deputy-who-killed-teen-carrying-replica/

it is only a matter of time, till some challenged OC'er makes a wrong move and is shot by law or civilian.
 
I note that they check all guns, unless concealed
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The thread here just as an example picked at random also talks about that sign, and other similar ones at Gander Mountain. It also has people reporting seeing OC'ers at the gun counter who didn't have to check. I generally agree with the idea that they have you check guns they're going to handle not the ones you're carrying for self defense.
 
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