Target Stores - No Guns Please

I suspect these open carry radicals (not all open carry folks) live in some kind of bubble and have no idea how other people see them. I’ve got friends that are at opposite ends of the political spectrum and they all seem opposed to this extreme version of open carry. Yes, the Mothers had something to do with this decision along with Target’s general desire to avoid controversy. However, I do wonder how much these zealots did influence the decision.
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Agreed. I am about as 2A as they come. I know people who think I'm a bit extreme that are themselves dealers in fact. These open carry folks who carry rifles into a store like they are just there to shop are crazy people. That is all. There is a reason you carry your gun concealed, so it doesn't freak people out; so it doesn't remind them that they live in a dangerous world.

Us Gun owners think about this more than most. The world is dangerous even in a safe country like the US. Most people prefer to ignore this and the presence of a weapon ruins the "bubble" for them.

Also, how am I, legitimately, supposed to know if someone carrying an AR or AK through Target is there to shop or do something terrible? I don't know them so I don't know their intentions. Once again this is why we carry concealed. Of course Target had this reaction when people did this. If I saw this I would probably feel the need to move out of their field of vision and reach for my own gun (if not draw) so I could see what they were doing. It is NOT reasonable behavior.

Let me ask you all this: What is your LGS policy on firearms in the store? I know the local Cabela's demands non-CCW pieces be safety tied. My closest LGS certainly wouldn't let you wander through their store with your finger an inch away from the trigger (like the guy from Chipotle who apparently mistook the restaurant for Taliban held territory in Kunar province.) If you did you would get shouted down and perhaps even drawn on. There you have to keep it cased until it is on the range; once again except for CCW pieces. So my LGS and Cabela's seem to have the exact same rules as Target. My understanding is that Target has not posted signs or taken any real action; just asked people not to giving themselves a good excuse to call the cops on Open carry guys with rifles.

So are we going to boycott Cabelas now? How about your LGS? Do they let people galavant around with loaded weapons?

Concealed, concealed concealed.
 
So how do you promote open carry without open carrying? Interesting problem.
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Why does it need promotion? The circumstances when it is required are not the same as CC. Different mission; different gear.

When I hunt I bring a rifle because if I do see someone I don't know in the woods they know why I have what I have. It is expected. It conforms to community norms.

I support 2A and actually Open Carry as well; I have plans to attend an OC picnic in my city next weekend. It doesn't mean you need to be a jerk about it. Here in MI it is legal and I do it when circumstances call for it. When I am going to be around people who don't like it I do not feel the need to shove it in their faces.

Let's make a comparison; I don't care about gay marriage. If it happens that is fine with me. If gay couples started making out on my lawn and wouldn't go away, I might have a problem with it though. It might even turn me against their issue even though I literally don't care about it at all. If these people continue doing what they are doing; being jerks they will turn people against us.

OC will become a thing of the past my friend.
 
Given how poor pistol calibers are for making physiological stops and given the reasoning often that most people would choose a long gun over a pistol for home defense sort of personal protection, a rifle a better choice for personal protection.
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Different mission, different equipment. If my mission is protecting my family in the short term then shotgun it is if I can reach it. However if my mission is securing avocados, salsa, cheese and tortilla chips for nachos then Self-defense is a secondary thing. I still make provision for it but it doesn't mean you need the same stuff. When I visit my local range I always find a buddy with a truck because it's back on a two-track; yet I drive a Chevy Cavalier to work everyday. I don't need a 400 HP diesel 4X4 to get to work so I choose not to waste the gas. Same logic. The 4 cyl 2.2 can get me to work fine and the 30 rounds of 9MM will likely protect me just fine. Sure "something" could happen in either scenario that ruins that but life is a balance of acceptable risk.
 
If you are going to boycott Target,Chipotles,etc,might as well be consistent.

Never fly anywhere.Don't go see your Doctor,most have a
No Weapons " sign.
And,any activity at the court house,like paying taxes,getting tags for your car,etc.No visits at the hospital.

I strongly support the right to carry,but my rights end when they step on yours.

I do not smoke,but if I did,and you had a "Please do not smoke in my home" sign on your front door,I wouldn't smoke.No offense,no heartburn,just respect.

I think that lack of respect goes to the heart of the problem.

In order for a Free Society to survive,the citizens must have a sense of responsibility,respect...a good compass to self direct and self limit.

Those who push the notion"I believe its legal,I can,and I want to push it" are exactly the people who cause others to say "We need a new law to control this"

No one should need a law,or a statement of company policy,to know that carrying an AR,AK,SKS,etc into a place of private business is in your face offensive,unwise,and will likely inspire restriction.

I'm beginning to suspect these Texas OC types are not even supporters of the 2nd Ammendment.Part of turning Texas from Red to Blue would be discrediting the gun culture.

I'll mis spell it,but Cloward-Piven,about overwhelming the system,and the Alynski strategies of isolating and discrediting a group or individual may apply.

If these folks do not respond to the feedback typical of this forum(knock it off,you are hurting the cause) then it is not Target,or Chipotle that should be shunned,but the Texas OC.
 
Couldn't agree more with HiBC. We should ostracize the likes of TOC publicly and loudly. They are not intelligent, respectful, and responsible gun-owners. They are not part of our community - they are village idiots - and we can't and shouldn't allow them to represent the gun-owning community.
 
It wasn't too many years ago that many such people were seen a "patriots" who were standing up for our rights.
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Perhaps they were by their own peers. The general public has generally been uncomfortable with the practice at best.

So how do you promote open carry without open carrying?
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Why bother at this point? The issue has been poisoned. There was a skirmish in public perception, and we lost. From now on, when Joe and Marge Sixpack think about "open carry," they're going to picture a bunch of ruffians strolling through the local shops with AK-47's.

This hurt us, and not just the open-carry supporters. Target, Chipotle, Starbucks, and several other corporations don't want me carrying on their premises. Their requests don't just apply to open carry, but to carry across the board. They don't just apply to Texas, either. These are national chains.

At this point, folks chime in with "signs don't carry the force of law!" or the ever-popular "concealed means concealed!" Those people miss the point.

I have been politely asked not to carry there. There are unkind words to describe people who flaunt such things. Maybe I won't get in legal hot water for carrying in a place I've been asked not to, but I'm certainly being a dink about it, aren't I?

Politeness and integrity matter. At least that's how I was raised, and those are lessons the open-carry folks really need to take to heart. Not everything is about them and their rights at the expense of all else.

These people were terrible ambassadors for the RKBA at best, and they've become downright destructive.
 
I am in favor of private property rights, however Target is a business open to the public. Texas law is very clear on what the posting should be to keep out concealed carry. If Target wishes to ban cc, they have to follow the law and post the correct sign. Someone who is saying one thing yet not following the law is just riding the fence.
 
I have to agree about these people doing more damage than good. I have a SIL that is very anti-gun. My brother is not as bad, but doesn't like them.

They are quite liberal, but most of my family are gun toten' hunting types with a very conservative upbringing.

Now this being said, I make sure all my gun related items are picked up and locked in the safe when they come visit. This is respect for them. Their kids have no idea about guns other than they are evil. So, I would hate for something to go wrong and someone get hurt.

Now, when in the public, if I choose to carry, which I can in all fifty states, I do so very discretely. If for some odd reason someone gets a glimpse of my weapon and says something, I apologize to them for making them uncomfortable and if they would rather I leave, I will honor their request. I have only had this happen one time and they smiled and thanked me for my service in LE. All was well.

I must say that sometimes it is a major PITA to carry. Loading lumber for example at a lumber yard is tough enough without worrying about my weapon.

I refuse to leave a weapon locked in my car. I can break into most cars faster than with a key.

When hunting I am in camo and always carry a side arm. There are times when we are done shooting dove, we want to sit down and have lunch or stop and buy some zoo-zoos and wham-whams at the local convenience store.

I don't take my weapon off, I just calmly go in buy what I want and leave. None of the places I have been even in California have ever said a word. Nobody cowers in fear, or thinks we are there to rob the place. We look like hunters, therefore it is acceptable. Legal, maybe not.

Going 5 MPH over the speed limit is not legal either. How many of us drive that speed in violation?

I do wish that these open carry folks would use a bit of common sense though, as they are making us all look bad in the eyes of Joe Public. I know this from talking to my Brother and SIL.

Mel
 
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Why does it need promotion? The circumstances when it is required are not the same as CC. Different mission; different gear.
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I didn't realize it was a mission. Hmm. I thought open carry was because you could, not because there was a 'mission.' Lots of people, however, see the 'mission' as personal protection, whether you agree with it or not, which is the same mission as often offered for concealed carry.

I am in favor of private property rights, however Target is a business open to the public. Texas law is very clear on what the posting should be to keep out concealed carry. If Target wishes to ban cc, they have to follow the law and post the correct sign. Someone who is saying one thing yet not following the law is just riding the fence.
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Actually, they aren't. They are being very smart. More than one business has done this. They intentionally do not abide by the legal requirements to ban concealed carry because they have no wish to actually ban concealed carry because they do not see it as a problem. They know that Texas CHL holders understand about proper legal signage and legal requirements and so know that they can carry if no such proper legal signage is present or if not told specifically that they cannot carry. So Target is good there.

The public, non-legally binding statement, if for all the gun-fearing folks to feel like Target has made their stores safe.

If playing this way, they are not riding the fence. They are keeping both sides happy by allowing concealed carry by not posting proper signs and letting the rest of the gun-fearing public believe that there are no guns in Target.

Besides, Target hasn't banned guns. They simply made a voluntary request.

Why bother at this point? The issue has been poisoned.
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So best to just give up. Got it.
 
Couldn't agree more with HiBC. We should ostracize the likes of TOC publicly and loudly. They are not intelligent, respectful, and responsible gun-owners. They are not part of our community - they are village idiots - and we can't and shouldn't allow them to represent the gun-owning community.
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This sums it up nicely.
 
Actually, they aren't. They are being very smart. More than one business has done this. They intentionally do not abide by the legal requirements to ban concealed carry because they have no wish to actually ban concealed carry because they do not see it as a problem. They know that Texas CHL holders understand about proper legal signage and legal requirements and so know that they can carry if no such proper legal signage is present or if not told specifically that they cannot carry. So Target is good there.
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I agree, in a clumsy way I was trying to say my continue to cc in target (if I ever go there) in my opinion does not disrespect their property rights because of their refusal to follow the proper signage.
 
I am remembering the outrage of many TFL members of how CJ Grisham, a true hero war veteran military intel officer, was purportedly so mistreated, when engaged in nothing more than a Boyscout hike with his son down a rural road in the city limits of Temple, carrying to protect against wild hogs and mountain lions, the cops who should never have been called out to the 911 call, should never have engaged him, because he was doing nothing more than being a citizen who was doing nothing wrong or suspicious, should not have made anyone uncomfortable. I don't recall anyone calling him a media whore or idiot then. Nobody seems to be playing the true war hero veteran card now either.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=522584&highlight=grisham+arrest

We seem to be a fickle group. If the effort makes us look good, we consider the folks to be heroes for our cause and if the effort looks bad, we call them derogatory names, even suggesting they are working for the other side, even when it is the same person.

Here is another article about CJ Grisham and OCT (obsessive compulsive troublemaking?) that appeared on the 4th of July...
http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/s...th-cj-grisham-founder-of-open-carry-texas.ece

See, it is all a misunderstanding. The media is at fault for putting so much fear into the public and OCT is just trying to do a public service by deprogramming the damage done by the media and are doing it with respect, courtesy, empathy, and professionalism. Their actions are those of educators, nothing more.

I don't think CJ Grisham thought through the Chipolte, Starbucks, and Target operations very well.
 
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I thought open carry was because you could
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Honestly, if that is your reason then stop wasting everybody's time and making the rest of the gun owning community look bad.

Why on earth, really; would you not CC when available? Just pull down a shirt over the gun and 99% of the population will never see it. I really find it perplexing that anyone would want to do something antagonistic that makes their own cause look bad to the masses "just because they can."

I can see you missed the subtle humor behind my "mission" analogy. I was attempting to highlight the over-the-top preposterousness of carrying longarms into a Target store, Chipotle, Starbucks...ect. My point was that if you just need a snickers bar and a DVD player you probably don't need to be flashing a gun at people who might find it offensive. It is silly they find it offensive; but nonetheless there is no reason to shove my life choices down anyone's throat.

To me, people who open carry in situations where they will obviously make a scene are doing it purely for the attention it gets them. They are the sort of people who camerabomb reporters on the news or run naked across a college campus. Stupid attention grabbing is all it is.

I reject the argument that you do it because you can. As another poster described above, I have carried a sidearm in the past while hunting and have worn it in relatively public places. They were all near common hunting spots and half the guys in their were in camo so nobody even noticed or looked twice. I OC'ed because it made sense in the situation (and because I didn't have a CPL then so it actually would have been illegal in MI to CC it)

I remember in my CPL class they told us that one of the most importantly things to keep in mind when carrying was the community we were in and they gave several examples; such as nearly identical HD incidents in cities not far from eachother, but in one the home owner was detained and (though later acquitted) charged while in a slightly smaller town not a 1/2 hour up the road a nearly identical incident took place and the homeowner got a slap on the back and a small story in the local newspaper and was treated as a hero.
 
Honestly, if that is your reason then stop wasting everybody's time and making the rest of the gun owning community look bad.
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LOL, it isn't MY reason. I don't open carry. I do like the concept and think it would be a nice thing to be able to do and to be able to do without worry. However, it is a reason often expressed about many aspects of gun ownership and rights and you will find that sentiment oft-repeated on this very forum.

That is just part of the fickleness to which I was referring above, LOL.
 
Double Naught Spy said:
I am remembering the outrage of many TFL members of how CJ Grisham, a true hero war veteran military intel officer, was purportedly so mistreated, when engaged in nothing more than a Boyscout hike with his son down a rural road in the city limits of Temple, carrying to protect against wild hogs and mountain lions, the cops who should never have been called out to the 911 call, should never have engaged him, because he was doing nothing more than being a citizen who was doing nothing wrong or suspicious, should not have made anyone uncomfortable. I don't recall anyone calling him a media whore or idiot then. Nobody seems to be playing the true war hero veteran card now either.
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There is a world of difference between OC-ing a rifle on a Boy Scout hike down a rural road in an area known to have mountain lions, and OC-ing down Aisle #9 in a metropolitan Target store, an area known to have Oreos.

The fact that these morons do not see, or do not admit, the importance of context in OC, tells me that these OC "demonstrations" aren't about gun rights. These are all about garnering 15 minutes of fame, and these guys are willing to irreparably damage the reputation of the rest of the law-abiding, gun-owning community for a selfie.
 
Its a free market if a company makes a statment aginst something I care about or promotes somthing I fell is wrong then I don't shop there .
 
Double Naught Spy said:
So how do you promote open carry without open carrying?
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Through the legislators.

JohnKSa said:
It only seems that way if you limit your thinking.

1. We got the CHL bill passed in TX in 1995. But it wasn't passed as a result of demonstrations, it was done by more conventional means. In other words, the gun owners of TX, along with TSRA, rallied pro-gun representatives and politicians and managed to get the bill through the legislature and signed. It took awhile and a lot of work, but once it was passed, it provided a toehold for further expansion of the ability carry handguns legally in TX.

Since the initial law was passed, the renewal frequency has been decreased, the class length has been decreased and renewal classes eliminated, a number of the initial restrictions have been relaxed or eliminated, and, now it is legal to carry concealed in one's own vehicle in TX without a permit.

This next legislative session, the goal was to begin pushing for the legalization of Open Carry, but I suspect that will be a really hard sell now.

2. One can use a right prudently and not endanger it. There is no reason to expect that prudent open carry of long guns in TX would have resulted in legal restrictions, but buffoonery, especially the kind that gets a lot of publicity can certainly have negative consequences.

3. Finally, one can obviously exercise a right without participating in demonstrations and even if one participates on demonstrations, those demonstrations need not be carried out in such a manner as to alienate the public. The "use it or lose it" argument (and those who espouse it) pretend that public demonstrations (carried out exactly the way they want to run them) are the only way to maintain and expand rights. That misconception (combined with an apparent inability to determine the likely consequences of their actions) is a primary contributing factor to the outcome of the recent unfortunate incidents that sparked this thread.

The "use it or lose it" argument is bankrupt from a practical standpoint (generally seems to be very poorly implemented in practice), from a historical/experiential standpoint and from a logical standpoint.
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Tom Servo said:
Yes, but that takes work, and it doesn't produce cool selfies for Twitter and Facebook.
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Yes, it appears the "work" has indeed become just another "four-letter-word". Sad ain't it.
 
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