riverrat66
New member
RsqVet
+ 1
+ 1
Taking your gun off in the car
- Thread starter Doug.38PR
- Start date
invention_45
New member
My apologies, this is REALLY long, but I think it definitively answers the question about carrying in a post office or courthouse or other federal facility.
§ 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities
Release date: 2005-08-03
(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
(b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.
(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—
(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or
(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.
(e)
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm in a Federal court facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (d).
(f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or orders regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of weapons within any building housing such court or any of its proceedings, or upon any grounds appurtenant to such building.
(g) As used in this section:
(1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.
(2) The term “dangerous weapon” means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 21/2 inches in length.
(3) The term “Federal court facility” means the courtroom, judges’ chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.
(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.
Looks to me like, unless other law makes it unlawful (like state law), it's OK to carry in a federal facility, provided you are doing it lawfully according to the state and local laws.
Furthermore, if there's no sign, you can't be federally convicted (at least not federally) even if you are statewise-unlawfully carrying in same facility. If it's against state law you might be able to be convicted by the state.
My post office does not have any such sign at the entrance to the area where the PO boxes are. I haven't checked the parking lot yet, but I will, and If I see no sign, I'm clean, federally, to go pick my mail armed. I haven't yet checked in the part of the office where the clerks reside.
I don't think Florida specifically prohibits carry in federal facilities. The state defers to federal law by saying "..or anywhere prohibited by federal law" or something like that. I will check and report in my next post on this thread.
My apologies for the length, but that's the whole law. And I don't know how it's going to format on the board, so it might be hard to read what paragraph is what.
§ 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities
Release date: 2005-08-03
(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
(b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.
(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—
(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or
(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.
(e)
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm in a Federal court facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (d).
(f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or orders regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of weapons within any building housing such court or any of its proceedings, or upon any grounds appurtenant to such building.
(g) As used in this section:
(1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.
(2) The term “dangerous weapon” means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 21/2 inches in length.
(3) The term “Federal court facility” means the courtroom, judges’ chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.
(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.
Looks to me like, unless other law makes it unlawful (like state law), it's OK to carry in a federal facility, provided you are doing it lawfully according to the state and local laws.
Furthermore, if there's no sign, you can't be federally convicted (at least not federally) even if you are statewise-unlawfully carrying in same facility. If it's against state law you might be able to be convicted by the state.
My post office does not have any such sign at the entrance to the area where the PO boxes are. I haven't checked the parking lot yet, but I will, and If I see no sign, I'm clean, federally, to go pick my mail armed. I haven't yet checked in the part of the office where the clerks reside.
I don't think Florida specifically prohibits carry in federal facilities. The state defers to federal law by saying "..or anywhere prohibited by federal law" or something like that. I will check and report in my next post on this thread.
My apologies for the length, but that's the whole law. And I don't know how it's going to format on the board, so it might be hard to read what paragraph is what.
invention_45
New member
ok, and for those in Florida....
"
(12) No license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize any person to carry a concealed weapon or firearm into any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05; any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station; any detention facility, prison, or jail; any courthouse; any courtroom, except that nothing in this section would preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in his or her courtroom; any polling place; any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district; any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof; any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms; any school administration building; any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose; any elementary or secondary school facility; any career center; any college or university facility unless the licensee is a registered student, employee, or faculty member of such college or university and the weapon is a stun gun or nonlethal electric weapon or device designed solely for defensive purposes and the weapon does not fire a dart or projectile; inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport, provided that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, which firearm is encased for shipment for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft; or any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law. Any person who willfully violates any provision of this subsection commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083."
So there it is.
Looks like "any courthouse or courtroom" would include federal ones. But no mention of any other federal property, except to defer to federal law.
So, at least in Florida, my read is you can carry concealed onto any federal property that isn't a courtHOUSE or courtROOM (as opposed to courtPARKING LOT), including the post office. Note the absence of any mention of any banks.
I can't find any firearms related state laws here related to banks, so looks like it's OK to carry there, too.
When I renewed my license, I was sent, along with it, an warning (along with a printed copy of all the firearms laws) that it was illegal to carry in a state park. I can't find that law online.
Oddly, I DO find online that it's illegal to carry any firearm of any kind in any National Forest except during hunting season or except properly encased on a state road. There is an exception by "permit", but it doesn't say that that permit is the same as your CCWL.
But aside from that one oddity, it seems clear to me that, particularly if there are no signs present, ANY parking lot is fine, including a federal parking lot, and ANY place not described above is fine so long as it's not a courtroom or courthouse.
My question is (just for curiosity, since I rarely take this route), since I think the Everglades is a national forest (somebody correct me if I"m wrong), and since the road from the east to west coast that cuts across it used to be SR84 but is now I-75, what kind of troubles am I going to have if I use that road while armed? If I get time I might call the FHP and ask them if it's still SR84 for these purposes.
Now, given all the stuff I presented in this and my last post, if I get to one of these can-carry places and I get a hard time from an official there (which I should never do if I'm concealing properly), I am NOT GOING TO ARGUE THE POINT. The smart thing to do is apologize, introduce myself, thus getting their name, then leave. After which I'll find out just exactly who's in charge and ask THEM what's what. If that differs from my experience, I'll ask them to inform their staff of the correct thinking.
You would be surprised how well this works. Communication within organizations is like the game of telephone. The guy you talk to in the lobby is hearing the rules repeated to him for maybe the 4th or 6th time. They're likely to have evolved. If you are stonewalled by him, then start at the top.
The man in charge (or, more correctly, his secretary) will almost always hear out your complaint. They'll refer it back to the same people you were stonewalled by earlier, but this time it's from the boss. You'll get called back and you will get results. Oh, and be polite and businesslike when you call. Sounding rabid and sarcastic gets you zilch.
I've done this several times, and it WORKS. Walgreen's. Jefferson-Ward. Comcast (their customer service is the WORST stonewall you'll ever face). Broward County Sheriff (They weren't stonewalling. They just can't know every single little law and I was getting bad advice. A call to Florida's Attorney General cleared everything up).
Failing that, I'll go elsewhere if possible. If not, I'll just not carry there.
"
(12) No license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize any person to carry a concealed weapon or firearm into any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05; any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station; any detention facility, prison, or jail; any courthouse; any courtroom, except that nothing in this section would preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in his or her courtroom; any polling place; any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district; any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof; any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms; any school administration building; any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose; any elementary or secondary school facility; any career center; any college or university facility unless the licensee is a registered student, employee, or faculty member of such college or university and the weapon is a stun gun or nonlethal electric weapon or device designed solely for defensive purposes and the weapon does not fire a dart or projectile; inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport, provided that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, which firearm is encased for shipment for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft; or any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law. Any person who willfully violates any provision of this subsection commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083."
So there it is.
Looks like "any courthouse or courtroom" would include federal ones. But no mention of any other federal property, except to defer to federal law.
So, at least in Florida, my read is you can carry concealed onto any federal property that isn't a courtHOUSE or courtROOM (as opposed to courtPARKING LOT), including the post office. Note the absence of any mention of any banks.
I can't find any firearms related state laws here related to banks, so looks like it's OK to carry there, too.
When I renewed my license, I was sent, along with it, an warning (along with a printed copy of all the firearms laws) that it was illegal to carry in a state park. I can't find that law online.
Oddly, I DO find online that it's illegal to carry any firearm of any kind in any National Forest except during hunting season or except properly encased on a state road. There is an exception by "permit", but it doesn't say that that permit is the same as your CCWL.
But aside from that one oddity, it seems clear to me that, particularly if there are no signs present, ANY parking lot is fine, including a federal parking lot, and ANY place not described above is fine so long as it's not a courtroom or courthouse.
My question is (just for curiosity, since I rarely take this route), since I think the Everglades is a national forest (somebody correct me if I"m wrong), and since the road from the east to west coast that cuts across it used to be SR84 but is now I-75, what kind of troubles am I going to have if I use that road while armed? If I get time I might call the FHP and ask them if it's still SR84 for these purposes.
Now, given all the stuff I presented in this and my last post, if I get to one of these can-carry places and I get a hard time from an official there (which I should never do if I'm concealing properly), I am NOT GOING TO ARGUE THE POINT. The smart thing to do is apologize, introduce myself, thus getting their name, then leave. After which I'll find out just exactly who's in charge and ask THEM what's what. If that differs from my experience, I'll ask them to inform their staff of the correct thinking.
You would be surprised how well this works. Communication within organizations is like the game of telephone. The guy you talk to in the lobby is hearing the rules repeated to him for maybe the 4th or 6th time. They're likely to have evolved. If you are stonewalled by him, then start at the top.
The man in charge (or, more correctly, his secretary) will almost always hear out your complaint. They'll refer it back to the same people you were stonewalled by earlier, but this time it's from the boss. You'll get called back and you will get results. Oh, and be polite and businesslike when you call. Sounding rabid and sarcastic gets you zilch.
I've done this several times, and it WORKS. Walgreen's. Jefferson-Ward. Comcast (their customer service is the WORST stonewall you'll ever face). Broward County Sheriff (They weren't stonewalling. They just can't know every single little law and I was getting bad advice. A call to Florida's Attorney General cleared everything up).
Failing that, I'll go elsewhere if possible. If not, I'll just not carry there.
Getting back to topic @ hand
Re-focusing on the topic at hand here:
The answer is No. I do not wait for people around me to go away before I reach over and put my weapon on my person from the vehicle's glove box.
The only reason it is in the glove box in the first place - is usually because I am going to work or someplace where weapons are restricted in my state: Schools, Courthouses, workplace (if they specifically mention it in employee handbook).
And since I have a CC permit, and Open Carry is legal in VA, I have no problems moving my weapon from one location to another. If someone sees me - I smile at them.
I have so far done this quite often - at least once a week - there were SUV's next to me with a good vantage point on my car, people walking around and behind the car as I moved from box to hip, and one time there were 2 police cars 2 parking spaces away as I moved my weapon.
No issues whatsoever. Maybe I am subtle - but unless people look carefully at what you are doing in your car (Most folks do not care) - the sheepies will never know.
Re-focusing on the topic at hand here:
The answer is No. I do not wait for people around me to go away before I reach over and put my weapon on my person from the vehicle's glove box.
The only reason it is in the glove box in the first place - is usually because I am going to work or someplace where weapons are restricted in my state: Schools, Courthouses, workplace (if they specifically mention it in employee handbook).
And since I have a CC permit, and Open Carry is legal in VA, I have no problems moving my weapon from one location to another. If someone sees me - I smile at them.
I have so far done this quite often - at least once a week - there were SUV's next to me with a good vantage point on my car, people walking around and behind the car as I moved from box to hip, and one time there were 2 police cars 2 parking spaces away as I moved my weapon.
No issues whatsoever. Maybe I am subtle - but unless people look carefully at what you are doing in your car (Most folks do not care) - the sheepies will never know.
they don't see what they see
In general, people do not "see" a gun even when someone is printing. If you reach into your waistband and pull out your gun in its holster, and put it in its lockbox or whatever, nobody but nobody is going to pay the slightest bit of attention.
The question stems from the "neon sign effect"...that irrational belief that once you are carrying concealed, EVERYBODY is more aware of YOU and is watching you. It just isn't so. We are trained in this society (especially in cities) NOT to be too observant of others. Those of us who carry for self defense are hopefully always in "condition yellow", but face it, others around us are just not.
This is just not an issue to worry about.
Springmom
In general, people do not "see" a gun even when someone is printing. If you reach into your waistband and pull out your gun in its holster, and put it in its lockbox or whatever, nobody but nobody is going to pay the slightest bit of attention.
The question stems from the "neon sign effect"...that irrational belief that once you are carrying concealed, EVERYBODY is more aware of YOU and is watching you. It just isn't so. We are trained in this society (especially in cities) NOT to be too observant of others. Those of us who carry for self defense are hopefully always in "condition yellow", but face it, others around us are just not.
This is just not an issue to worry about.
Springmom
riverrat66
New member
Well now that we're re-focused on the topic at hand let me quote Duxman
http://www.handguncontrolinc.org/nyc_permits.htm
Oops, we're back on that topic again!
I have a CCW permit and open carry is NOT legal in NY, I do have problems moving my weapon from one location to another. If someone sees me- there is a very good chance that I will have a half dozen cops pointing their guns at me in a matter of minutes!
Maybe not in your neck of the woods but it sure as hell is in mine! You guys and gals just don't get it. New York State is not a gun friendly state! In NYC where it is almost impossible to get a CCW permit and is very difficult to obtain a permit to simply possess a handgun in your home or place of business. If one is fortunate enough to get a PREMISE LICENSE and wants to go to the firing range they need to ask permission up to one month in advance and maybe they'll be allowed to take their handgun to the range on a specific date and only on that date.
Can you imagine? Having to ask permission one month before you want to go to the range? Thank God I don't live in NYC. But read this link and you'll get an idea of how the law works in this state.
http://www.handguncontrolinc.org/nyc_permits.htm
carrying without a permit
nscale: I think you'd better be careful. Watch out for some LEO seeing your carrying and checking to see if you've got a permit. In my sate carry permits are few and far between (I have one..yipee!) so not too many people are authorized to carry, and I know guys who just have "sportsmen" permits which are house, range, and hunting pistol permits. What the guys do is join a private 24 hour range. State law states you may carry your gun on you concealed and loaded to the range or to a hunting destination. If they get caught they show their sportsmen permit and their range key and membership card. Now granted you can't be 100 miles headed in the opposite direction of the range, but it covers guys for a wider range of having the gun on them without a carry. Now I'm not saying I condone this, but I do agree its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6, so I thought it might help.
nscale: I think you'd better be careful. Watch out for some LEO seeing your carrying and checking to see if you've got a permit. In my sate carry permits are few and far between (I have one..yipee!) so not too many people are authorized to carry, and I know guys who just have "sportsmen" permits which are house, range, and hunting pistol permits. What the guys do is join a private 24 hour range. State law states you may carry your gun on you concealed and loaded to the range or to a hunting destination. If they get caught they show their sportsmen permit and their range key and membership card. Now granted you can't be 100 miles headed in the opposite direction of the range, but it covers guys for a wider range of having the gun on them without a carry. Now I'm not saying I condone this, but I do agree its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6, so I thought it might help.
carrying without a permit
nscale: I think you'd better be careful. Watch out for some LEO seeing your carrying and checking to see if you've got a permit. In my sate carry permits are few and far between (I have one..yipee!) so not too many people are authorized to carry, and I know guys who just have "sportsmen" permits which are house, range, and hunting pistol permits. What the guys do is join a private 24 hour range. State law states you may carry your gun on you concealed and loaded to the range or to a hunting destination. If they get caught they show their sportsmen permit and their range key and membership card. Now granted you can't be 100 miles headed in the opposite direction of the range, but it covers guys for a wider range of having the gun on them without a carry. Now I'm not saying I condone this, but I do agree its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6, so I thought it might help.
nscale: I think you'd better be careful. Watch out for some LEO seeing your carrying and checking to see if you've got a permit. In my sate carry permits are few and far between (I have one..yipee!) so not too many people are authorized to carry, and I know guys who just have "sportsmen" permits which are house, range, and hunting pistol permits. What the guys do is join a private 24 hour range. State law states you may carry your gun on you concealed and loaded to the range or to a hunting destination. If they get caught they show their sportsmen permit and their range key and membership card. Now granted you can't be 100 miles headed in the opposite direction of the range, but it covers guys for a wider range of having the gun on them without a carry. Now I'm not saying I condone this, but I do agree its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6, so I thought it might help.
you can fix this, nscale
In order for you to be denied a permit, you must be in default on your student loans. That implies that you quit paying on them altogether. If you want to legalize your status, you can work with your lender and get some sort of consolidation, refinancing, repayment plan, or even debt forgiveness if you are disabled. You do not have to pay off the whole thing before you can get your CHL.
Do yourself a favor and deal with this. Your CHL is not the only thing that wil be impacted by this; the state of Texas is hooking student loans and "deadbeat parent" issues to a number of things. I would expect, although I am guessing, that one of these days driver's licenses will also be linked to these issues.
You can do it. They will work with you, and once you are no longer "in default" you can get legal. Go for it!!!!
Springmom
In order for you to be denied a permit, you must be in default on your student loans. That implies that you quit paying on them altogether. If you want to legalize your status, you can work with your lender and get some sort of consolidation, refinancing, repayment plan, or even debt forgiveness if you are disabled. You do not have to pay off the whole thing before you can get your CHL.
Do yourself a favor and deal with this. Your CHL is not the only thing that wil be impacted by this; the state of Texas is hooking student loans and "deadbeat parent" issues to a number of things. I would expect, although I am guessing, that one of these days driver's licenses will also be linked to these issues.
You can do it. They will work with you, and once you are no longer "in default" you can get legal. Go for it!!!!
Springmom
riverrat66
New member
They are already doing it in New York! An acquaintance had his tax return withheld because he was "default on his student loans". Others have been known to be arrested as "deadbeat dads" when they went to renew their drivers license.
As far as I'm concerned, they owe the money they should pay it. I pay my bills so should they. My daughter has been paying off a $60,000 student loan (6 years of college) for many years now and is very close to being done.
Florida...
"So, at least in Florida, my read is you can carry concealed onto any federal property that isn't a courtHOUSE or courtROOM (as opposed to courtPARKING LOT), including the post office. Note the absence of any mention of any banks."
I thought so to and used to carry in them untill I asked a local cop who said its a no-no to carry in the post office. So I now leave the gun in the car for the few minutes I'm in there. Let someone else be the TEST case.
"So, at least in Florida, my read is you can carry concealed onto any federal property that isn't a courtHOUSE or courtROOM (as opposed to courtPARKING LOT), including the post office. Note the absence of any mention of any banks."
I thought so to and used to carry in them untill I asked a local cop who said its a no-no to carry in the post office. So I now leave the gun in the car for the few minutes I'm in there. Let someone else be the TEST case.