SxS's for H/D!

All that is true, Jim, but I still believe my basic point remains valid. Generally, a repeater is a better SG for HD than an Double, which is not to say that a double cannot be a solid HD gun if one trains enough. I am saying that if trained equally well with both, the repeater generally is the superior HD gun.

As you say, almost all my shooting is with a over under. In particular one with 30" barrels and, because of its length it is poorly suited for moving about the home (forgetting about how many rounds it can get off). Still, it is far better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick if hunkered down awaiting police and, why I am no where near as proficient with it as you and many others, I much prefer my short barrel pump for HD.

In short, the question is not if a sxs can be made to work, but if it can be made to work better than a repeater given equivalent time and effort.

Look at it this way. A lot of newbies, just like I did, come to this board with questions as to what to get for a HD shotgun. While for some that put a lot of training in, the coach gun may do a pretty good job, I don't think the new guy should be given the impression that a basic double fills the bill without much more extensive practice than a pump or semi.
 
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I disagree....

....your basically saying that 2 shots in 2.3 sec.....or 4 shots out of a SXS in 6.6 sec is not enough.../ when it may be more than enough.

But it doesn't matter...because what works for me - doesn't have to be what works for you / or what works best for the OP.
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In your and my generation the 1911 in .45 acp was king...( and I still like it very much )...but today most of the experts say its more about shot placement than any other factor ...and speed that it takes for you to get that first shot on target with tactical accuracy ! ( spraying the area with misses doesn't count for much )...but you know that...

If you are trained - and accurate --- you may not need a 2nd shot / so capacity might be irrelevant. Now while I understand that more is usually better, just in case, training still trumps capacity in my view.
 
No, I am not saying that, Jim, and training indeed trumps capacity. Simply put, I am saying that training plus capacity is best and 4 shots in 6.6 seconds may not be enough. I think you agree and if so why would anyone want to leave newbies (as I was not long ago and still much am) with the impression that they are as well served with a sxs? That is my concern; not the experienced shooter who might train to the point that they are damn good with a double, but the first time gun owner to be looking for advice.

Nor am I saying that capacity is always the trump card in choosing a weapon. I am still pondering getting a handgun and just last night was again pondering the pros and cons of a single or double stack pistol and a 5, 6, or 7 shot S&W. Reliability, if it is too large for my wife, if weight controls recoil, concealability, ease to reload, targetability, and etcetera
 
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No one said it is a "bad" choice and for an individual it may be the better choice, but in general . . ?

Referring back to the OP, given his particular circumstances his double may indeed be the best choice for him.
 
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Ok, if I were to list the top 10 common weapon platform choices for home defense...I would probably rank them as follows :

1. semi-auto handgun - single and double stack options...
2. double action revolver
3. single action revolver
4. semi-auto rifle
5. semi-auto shotgun
6. lever, pump or bolt action rifle
7. pump or bolt action shotgun
8. SxS or Over Under shotgun
9. single shot shotgun
10. single shot rifle
11. single shot handgun
12. can't think of another one right now....( black powder maybe ..??)

Happy Now ?? :D
 
44AMP

You played a little game comparing the efficacy of doubles to repeaters, but never made any recommendation, as you did with birdshot. How about telling us which you recommend for use by an average, relatively healthy homeowner who is limited to one firearm for home defense, and why you recommend it?
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What I recommend for such a person is to choose one gun, learn it, and stick with it.


While for some that put a lot of training in, the coach gun may do a pretty good job, I don't think the new guy should be given the impression that a basic double fills the bill without much more extensive practice than a pump or semi.
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I look at this question from the other side. I think the coach gun is a better choice for people with lesser training than the pump or semiauto. Because it is, simply, simpler. Also, I'm looking at a specific situation, defensive use. As is keeping the evil away from you, and not clearing your house and grounds of it. These are different things.

Your skeet gun, or a coach gun is enough to keep them from coming through the bedroom door, even in the hands of my wife, who, while she knows how to shoot, is not a gun person. But for checking out the noise downstairs, or out back, that double is not the best available choice, despite what our esteemed Vice President may think, and say...

The coach gun is simple. its at its simplest with two triggers, and if it has hammers, its only slightly more complex. It does not have the "menacing? appearance of a "combat" gun. It does not have a feeding cycle that can screw up, and it can be stored loaded and essentially "at rest".

The down side, of course, is that it only holds two shells. If you have someone in your household that won't know "by instinct" where the safety is, where the action release button is, doesn't know that you can short shuck a pump, or a semi, doesn't know how to clear a stoppage, AND won't know (or remember) these things under extreme stress, a simple gun, even if only two shots might be worth considering. Two is better than one, or none, after all.

No, this doesn't apply to everyone. It doesn't apply to most of us, but for some of us, it's worth considering.

ALSO, something to consider, is that if you have more than one gun, which one you are "used to". Because when you are under extreme stress (or maybe just a little) one tends to operate on "autopilot". This is why training, and proper practice are so heavily emphasized.

I once missed a bird (low stress but some rush) only because the gun I had in my hands at the time had the safety in a different place than the one I was used to. I can only imagine how much worse the stress would be in a defense situation.

And, one more thing for consideration, if you ever do need to use the gun for "serious social work", the police are going to take it. It's evidence. And they are going to keep it, until ALL the possible legal issues are resolved. AND they may not keep it in the best of condition while this happens. Depending on the situation, some places this may mean months, possibly even longer.

A "cheap" coach gun, which might be lost to the evidence locker for who knows how long is less of a loss than a high(er) dollar gun. Again, not a huge thing for most of us, but something to take into consideration.

If you know how to use a pump or semi, its ammo capacity certainly makes it a better choice than a double barrel for nearly everything. Also, the fact that a double does only hold two shots tends to discourage spray and pray or recon by fire (something a regular citizen has no business doing, anyway). In other words, KNOWING you've only got two shots means you'll probably save them for when they are most needed.

Just my $.02 and worth what you paid for it. :)
 
NYPD seems to have a reputation for "Accuracy by Volume" ..... I recall an incident a few years back when a total of 50 rounds were fired at a car, and only 21 of those rounds hit it ..... they seem to hit a lot of bystanders as well ..... when they fired at a guy 16 times at the Empire State Building ....... killing him DRT, sure enough ..... but wounded 9 bystanders in the process ......

stuff like that will tend to skew the numbers of shots fired per incident up a bit .....
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At the Boston Marathon Bombing police fired 300 shots, 3 connected with the intended target(s). IIRC

Anyway...


Personally, I think shotguns aren't a great choice for SD. It's not as easy to hit a target as most people think. As Hickock45 says in his SxS vs AR15 video. "You're shooting a rifle"
The pellets group rather tightly and it doesn't really increase your margin of error for aiming incorrectly. It's not like video games and movies.

A reliable Semi auto would be my first choice for a shotgun.
SxS would be my second choice, with a pump action being last. I just don't like the idea of having to pump in between shots, while a BG is at 'bad breath distances'

Personally, I'd choose a decent semi auto rifle/pistol over any shotgun, in a rifle cartridge/caliber. Less recoil, more capacity, roughly comparable stopping power.
 
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Just as a general observation, note how police and the military the world over use semi automatic pistols, rifles, and carbines, but not semi auto shotguns? There are some, but generally the pump shotgun reigns supreme.

Why do you think that might be?

I do agree the greatest myth about using a shotgun (at short range) is the one about not having to precisely aim. Now, its certainly true, you don't have to be perfectly centered on the pheasant at 40 yards with birdshot, but that is not even close to what happens at across the room distance.

yet people continue to claim it is....

shooters know, you have to aim EVERYTHING! Don't aim, and you miss, its really that simple. Don't confuse not having to precisely alight sights in order to strike a small target with not needing to AIM in order to hit a larger, or closer one.

Also don't mistake energy figure as stopping power. There is more to it than energy alone. Lots more.
 
Many have to factor in over penetration when selecting a HD weapon. Your mileage may vary.

Police are a different story from HD. The police SG lends itself to the use of more varied types of rounds (less lethal, slugs, low recoil, (can it be used for launching any kind of flash bang or gas). Also LE woks tries to work in teams. The guy with the SG is backed up with officers with other service weapons. The police also run into situations in which over penetration or carry is a problem (School yard in the distant back ground. Shot should fall well short of it whereas a bullet will easily reach said distance.)

Also, hopefully LE isn't going to have to deal with the dreaded short shuck, due to training. I think cost is a factor in selecting pumps, but not so much as the pumps reputation (which man not be true of modern weapons) for reliability over semis.

Lastly, while one can still miss with the SG at HD distances, where the spread is minimal, a 2-3" pattern is still greater than the -1" area of a bullet.
 
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This discussion reminded me that I saw a new shooter( in his late 20's probably) ...at the range last week, he had purchased his first home defense gun ...and it was a 12ga pump shotgun ( Mossberg or Remington - not sure ).../ talking to him a little bit when he stepped off the firing line..../ he was watching some of us run tactical handgun drills...

a. why the shotgun....everyone told him he needed one....

b. why the pump ....it was the cheapest....

c. any thought to lessons ...no, said he didn't want to spend the money / thought he was doing ok on his own...( local professional firearms training with a very good reputation - has a 2 day defensive shotgun class for about $600 tuition / you have to have a handgun and holster too with 250 rds / 300 rds of birdshot for the shotgun / 50 rounds of "OO" Buck / 50 rounds of slugs...).. so probably another $ 400 in ammo expense....but it would teach him a lot of things..../ but he'll never do it because of the money .....

d. I asked him if he's done any reading about "defensive shotgun" techniques, etc.....nope...

He fired about 30 rounds of "OO" buck ...and 10 rds of slugs..../ his stance was bad -- in fact he was rocking back on his heels after every shot.../ I tried to help him a little ( suggesting he get more forward on his toes / into the gun more )....most of his practice was "slow fire" one shell about every 30 sec....and when he tried to rapid fire 3 shells - it was about 3 shells in 20 sec was the best he could do. For the most part...he was somewhere on the paper ...of a silhouette target ...at 6 to 10 yds...

He mentioned as he was packing up his gear ....that his shoulder hurt so bad he'd have to wait a few months before he came back ...but he thought it went very well for first time out. I asked him if he had experience with shotguns in the field...he said no, although he had fired them a little when he was a kid with his dad....

I suggested again he do some reading / maybe look at some DVD's or You Tube videos on techniques, etc... / and gave him a business card if he had any questions - give me a call or drop me a note....( but I'll probably never hear from him ).
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My hunch is......he thinks he's fine / has all the skill he needs for protection.

At the cost of a box of "OO" Buck or slugs....I'll bet its at least a year before he comes back to the range....

I think his approach to all this ....is unfortunately all too common among his peer group....there was no thought about "Fit" of the shotgun / is the pump gun the best option / training ....
 
..../ but he'll never do it because of the money .....
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Well, the guy who buys a pump because its cheaper isn't likely to have an extra grand to throw away on a training class that he isn't even remotely ready for, anyway.

300rnds of birdshot and 100rnds of buck& slugs in two days can put the hurt on a seasoned shooter. On a tyro, its a virtual death sentence, and will just about guarantee he won't pick up a shotgun again for years. AND he will regret every penny he spent.

It sounds like a good class, to hone existing skills, doesn't sound like the patient instruction a real beginner needs. Just based on your descriptions, that class isn't for him, yet, if ever.
 
I seem to recall the NYPD got rid of there last double barrel Stevens 311R back in 2002, after many years of service. I believe they were used by the stakeout squad or something.

While not offering as much firepower as a pump or semi-auto, I think this in itself clearly shows the double barrel shotgun is still a very effective weapon in the hands of trained LEOs and civillians.

I myself would LOVE to find a Stevens 311R, it would be a wonderful home defense option. After reading this thread I really do think a double barrel could be just as good, and in many ways superior, to any pump gun. The simple manuel of arms and dead-nuts reliability of the side by side are hugely important in a home defense scenario.

This warrants more discussion methinks.
 
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300rnds of birdshot and 100rnds of buck& slugs in two days can put the hurt on a seasoned shooter. On a tyro, its a virtual death sentence, and will just about guarantee he won't pick up a shotgun again for years. AND he will regret every penny he spent.

It sounds like a good class, to hone existing skills, doesn't sound like the patient instruction a real beginner needs. Just based on your descriptions, that class isn't for him, yet, if ever.
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My thoughts, exactly.

Training is a fine thing. Training that blackens the shoulder and induces a flinch in a new shooter is worse than no training at all- it's counter productive. He'd come out of that worse off (flinch), poorer, and with less enthusiasm for getting better than he went in. I'd bet the majority of skills and techniques taught in a beginner's class could be imparted without any live fire at all ...... live fire could be done at the end, to tie it all together .... with maybe 20-25% of the ammo expenditure .....

W/ regard to "training", and "what gun is best for ________" so many instructors lose sight of the fact that 99% of their students will never need to defend themselves with their firearm..... and for that 1% that do, in the vast majority of cases, just having a gun at all is enough ..... those that do need to shoot will more than likely than not find that familiarity and the competence and confidence that brings with it outweigh any high speed/low drag "operator" techniques a class that costs 3X what the gun did .....
 
For many years my faux 311 R lived by my bedside. The chamber walls were honed slick as glass and single O buck (just to be different) cases would just fall out when you tilted the barrels. Holding 2 shells between the fingers of my left hand I could get off 4 shots PDQ.
 
I have looked into training classes such as the one BigJim mentions and that is about the going rate for one of the better ones, though I believe a decent one day class is taught nearby for about $250. I am planning on taking one, but first have yet to settle on a handgun.

I sort of go along with what jimob86 said about classes teaching more than what most people need to know for home defense purposes. My gut feeling is that having taken a class teaching fire and maneuver and such, then a civilian is more likely to get into trouble trying to clear rooms as opposed to taking up a defensive position and awaiting the cops. It is a tough call because even if that is your plan, circumstances might dictate that you will have to fire and maneuver to get to a family member or some other reason.
 
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The course I mentioned has some pre-requisites.../ he would have to have had a basic defensive handgun class as well - have a concealed weapon permit or pass a background check prior to class - be certified by range safety officer to draw a handgun from the holster ( which the basic class will give him - if he took it from the same company )..../ but they do get some shotgun guys at that class where its their first real instruction on tactical shotguns - but they are usually more seasoned.

You guys are probably right ...its too much for a newbie.../ but the reason his shoulder is hurting is probably from 2 issues ....his gun mount is bad and or the gun doesn't fit him very well..../ but 400 shells for a seasoned bird hunter or a clay target shooter over 2 days is no big deal / and my hunch is, it would be spread over the 2 days....with 50 shells per firing session ( then some instruction for fine tuning technique, etc ). They don't just blast away for 250 shells on the first day - although I have not taken this specific class / but even their advanced 3 day defensive handgun classes are not just constant shooting..there are breaks / some discussion etc...

I only bring this scenario up - because its what I hear most often at the range from tactical shotgun guys / including the young guys in my family and their buddies in their 30's mostly ( they've all got tactical pump guns too ) ....and none of them took any formal classes ...and they all put about 250 shells thru those guns when they were new ....and most of them have not fired those shotguns in over 5 or 6 years...including my 2 sons in the group ( although I did run both of my boys thru some training similar to what the Orange County sherrif's dept did back in the day ...moving and shooting / loading, etc...) with those pump guns...so they at least understand those guns / and they've moved on to be clay target shooters, tactical handgun guys, etc...

I think its sad ....that these guys buy tactical pump shotguns...( because everyone told him he needed one )...without much thought or range time or discussion about options ..../ and only my opinion, but I think too many of them figure out they don't like these tactical pump shotguns much after they've fired them a little bit...and that's why they just sit in the safe.

And I am not a big fan of tactical shotguns...which is why I rated the pump shotgun #7 out of the best 8 options for home defense - earlier in this thread...but only my opinion.../ the SXS still might work for the OP.
 
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