SxS's for H/D!

By "fine" do you mean "adequate"? You aren't going to be shooting at steel plates, that don't fire back, and there may be more than one armed intruder. If trained officers can miss so easily, isn't a weapon with a few more rounds than a double the "finer" HD gun?
 
I have seen the FBI reports that the average gunfight/SD use of a handgun is 2.7 rounds, I think at 10 feet 2 rounds of No. 4 buck-or birdshot-would do fine. I have a Rossi Coach Gun, it will do nicely.
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At 10 feet the pattern will have yet to open up more than a couple of inches. IIRC, any hits will have an effect more like a large caliber magnum bullet rather than a shotgun, while there are some differences in wound channel and energy dissipation. Why would you let an intruder get so close?

As for the average gunfight/SD use of a handgun, Massad Ayoob recently declared that while,

It is difficult to say exactly how many private citizens have actually fired more than ten rounds in a self-defense shooting, because the amount of rounds fired in self-defense shoots, from my experience in researching such incidents, is very often an omitted fact in written accounts of such defensive gun uses. Oftentimes the accounts just say "multiple shots fired." That could mean more or less than ten, it just cannot be known.
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I believe the average shots fired by NYPD officers is well over 7 per incident.
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NYPD seems to have a reputation for "Accuracy by Volume" ..... I recall an incident a few years back when a total of 50 rounds were fired at a car, and only 21 of those rounds hit it ..... they seem to hit a lot of bystanders as well ..... when they fired at a guy 16 times at the Empire State Building ....... killing him DRT, sure enough ..... but wounded 9 bystanders in the process ......

stuff like that will tend to skew the numbers of shots fired per incident up a bit .....
 
I'm agreeing with JimBob on this one. And I believe someone else had this quote posted as well, "a hit with a .22lr beats a miss from a .44mag anyday".
 
In a home-defense scenario, I doubt there will be a "running gunfight."
Yes- if you expect a home invasion by multiple intruders intent on doing you harm, then get lots of capacity. :rolleyes: Maybe you should get Claymores....
Using the tricked-out 9 shot pump reminds me of the guys walking around with a full-sized service auto with 4 extra 15 round magazines plus a backup gun.
Come on guys- this is the real world, not a combat situation.
While your toys may be useful in any given situation, conventional arms will work just as well, if not better.
 
You keep having to use a straw man argument about tricked out tacticool weapons with lazers and all the bells and whistles, when all I am saying is that a standard pump or semi is preferable for HD over a double.

I also doubt there will be a running gunfight, but let's look at your statement. I believe most of us also doubt that we will ever have a home invader, yet we keep an HD gun. (I also have a double, which can be used for but really is not well suited for HD; an 0/U desiged for clays.) Using your logic, there is no point in keeping a defense gun since the likelihood of needing one is doubtful.

I think it prudent to have a defense/survival gun and while a double is better than nothing, I went with a standard pump holding 6 in the tube and sporting a 18.5". Some call that a conventional weapon.

Do I expect 6 bad guys? Hell no, but if there is ever any need, I realize the possibility that I could miss and the added possibility that the BG may have a buddy or two. I expect that most burglar types are going to run like heck even if the first shot is a miss, but I don't want to chance that they don't run.

If you want to get right down to it, I don't think a shotgun of any type is the best HD weapon, but a handgun is preferred. The combination of the two is best.

Of course they might line up single file and hold still to be shot, in which case a double is plenty.:) But there will always be some who insist on bringing a knife to a gunfight.;)
 
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I've heard the that the best sized shot for a HD shotgun is #7 1/2 shot, because it will go thru 1 section of drywall an drop down on the other side.
 
I've heard the that the best sized shot for a HD shotgun is #7 1/2 shot, because it will go thru 1 section of drywall an drop down on the other side.
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I have heard this as well about birdshot. Also, at typical home defense distances it will stay clustered together and be as effective as a rifled deer slug, without all the overpenetration.

I keep Winchester AA 7 1/2 2 3/4" shells in all my HD guns.
 
Dreaming- we agree. Standard guns. There is no need for tacticool toys-except as toys.

Erno- you heard wrong.
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Bill. I kind of went overboard and got argumentative. A double is actually just about as good as a pump or semi and especially depending on one's defense plan and if it includes a pistol. Mine is basic to stay hold up on the upstairs landing and wait for the police with the SG pointed at the stairway, but I would like to have a pistol if I need to move around or have to use the phone to call police and such. In that case, a double is just about as good as any other SG.

I don't eve want to get into this nonsense about birdshot. It is well covered in may threads and web sites.
 
Birdshot is for birds.

I wouldn't even use it on a bird that invaded my house (badminton racquets work better with less collateral damage).
 
Birdshot is for birds.
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Yes it is. There's a video floating around about a kid who got shot 3 times point blank with a shotgun and lived.
First shot nearly took his arm off. Second shot was directly into the chest. 3rd shot was to the head, but the kid was still conscious and pushed the muzzle far enough that it caused a grazing wound.

He was left to die, but managed to walk to a main road where he found a police officer.
Here's the video of the kid telling the story.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c54_1344642657

From the looks of it, It only seems he survived because smaller pellets were used, and didn't penetrate enough. Small pellets don't penetrate as well as larger, heavier ones, even at point blank. Don't count on the close range causing them to act like exactly a slug, because it seems that's not completely true.
Sorry, but if a 17 year old kid, caught off guard, can get up and walk after having a popcorn bowl sized chunk of his chest blown off, I wouldn't trust that same load to stop a large angry man being fueled by adrenaline.
 
Don't count on the close range causing them to act like exactly a slug, because it seems that's not completely true.
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In fact, it is not true at all. In simple terms, the energy and penetration of a shot pellet depends on the velocity and weight of the individual pellet, not the velocity and weight of all of the individual pellets. A 1 1/2 oz load of #6 shot will never penetrate as far in a whitetail as a 1 oz slug.
 
when all I am saying is that a standard pump or semi is preferable for HD over a double.
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What you prefer is what you prefer, logic and reason may, or may not enter into it. ;)

Certainly in many situations a pump or semi is preferable, BUT that means in some situations, it is not.

First off, any advantage to the ammo capacity comes only AFTER firing two shots. It is possible that the pump or semi auto can actually be slower firing those two shots than the double.

The pump/semi will be 5 or so inches longer than the double barrel, with the same barrel length. Is this important? Maybe.

The repeater has a greater likelihood of having a malfunction, either due to mechanical failure, ammo issues, or incorrect operation by the user. The double, is less likely to have the same issues. But, again, is this important? Maybe, maybe not.

Also, here's another thing to consider, "Home Defense". Exactly what is that to you? We focus a lot on what it takes to decisively stop a berserk attacker. That is about the worst possible case. But realistically, how much of that is in the usual home defense?

Anything that drives off the intruder, works. This includes birdshot. And a 17yr old kid not stopped by birdshot isn't proof, any more than Dick Cheney having being "stopped" from a single pellet in a hunting accident, is "proof".

NOTHING works 100% of the time. NOTHING!!!!
(there is a case of a guy taking 2 12ga slugs to the chest and running away! He didn't run far, but he did run away!;))

The point of defense is to stop the attack. Not to kill. If death occurs as a result of the attacker being stopped, so be it. Even birdshot can manage this, on occasion. My Grandfather thought a face full of birdshot stood a good chance of changing a bad guys mind about attacking you. I think he was right about that.

Do I recommend birdshot? No. Can it work? Yes. Will it work in all circumstances? No.
 
It comes down to whatever works for each of us ....and in my mind, how much we train with that choice.

If you train with a SXS or O/U ...then its probably just fine / because you presumably will learn how to quickly reload it if necessary.
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You may choose a shotgun .....I may choose a 1911....somebody else may choose a revolver...some may choose a .22....--- and its all just fine if you get to the range a few times a month and train with it.
 
44AMP

You played a little game comparing the efficacy of doubles to repeaters, but never made any recommendation, as you did with birdshot. How about telling us which you recommend for use by an average, relatively healthy homeowner who is limited to one firearm for home defense, and why you recommend it?
 
Training is important, Jim, and I have seen video of how quickly a Thunder Ranch instructor reloads and fires a single shotl sg, but do you really think that someone who trains as much on a repeater isn't going to have the advantage over shooting a double - IN GENERAL?

This reminds me of the gun control lobby's argument that all one needs for self defense are handguns with limited capacity like 10 or even 7 round magazines. By analogy, two shot derringers are all we need.
 
In my opinion ...even if the weapon choice is not optimal ( like a single shot shotgun / or maybe a single action revolver )...it can still be very effective if you train properly with it.

I'm not trying to say I can fire more shots quicker with a single shot shotgun than I can with a 6 shot pump shotgun ..../ ... nor can I fire 5 shots from a single action revolver - and reload and fire 5 more...faster than I can with a double action revolver with a speed loader.../ nor am I quicker to reload a double action revolver than I am a 1911...
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But I can make an argument that a double barrel shotgun is a solid home defense choice ( if you train with it ) ....and so is a single action revolver - if you train with it..../ and so on....
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My buddies and I run a casual get together - at our local range every Thursday / and this week we are doing a course of fire with a lot of Draw and Fire ...type drills - like "Draw - fire 3 - Reload - Fire 3 - Reload - Fire 3"...and based on some input I got from a well know instructor ...our "Par Time" ...to be a "Class C shooter"....is :

Draw and 1 shot ( 2 sec )
Split time between shots is ( 0.5 sec )
Reload and 1 shot ( 3 sec )...

So Draw from holster at buzzer - fire 3 - Reload - Fire 3 - Reload Fire 3 is :
( 2.0 sec ) ( 0.5) ( 0.5) - ( 3 sec ) ( 0.5 sec ) ( 0.5 sec )- (3.0) (0.5) (0.5)

So the Par Time - to train to - is no more than 11 Sec.....
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We have shooters in my group ...that can run that drill consistently in about 8 sec ( making them a Class A shooter ) ....some guys run it in about 9.5 sec ...and a few need about 15 sec.../ but anyone who is carrying a concealed weapon, that can't run that drill in under 11 sec, in my view, needs a lot more training ...( and maybe should reconsider their weapon for any number of reasons ) ....maybe the gun doesn't fit their hand properly, maybe mags need maintenance, maybe gun needs maintenance...etc....
( and by the way they have to hit 90% of their shots within a "tactical target zone" ...on a silhouette target...about 8 1/2" X 11" ( nipple to nipple on chest - and down to belly button )...so the center chest area...or its a miss / any late shot is an automatic miss ( regardless of why, equipment problem, fumbled mag change, etc...)...

We will run that drill 8 times ( 72 rounds )....twice at 5 yds, twice at 6, 7 and 8 yds....ideally I expect to see all my shots in that 8 1/2" X 11" rectangle...and I'd like to see that center chest area about a 5" circle entirely ripped out of target...
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I have 5 guys showing up this week ... 2 have different models of glocks - one with a red dot / one has a 1911 in 9mm / one has a 1911 in .45 acp / one has a Browning high power....

I already know which 2 guys will be 100 % on target and under time because they train with their choice of carry gun twice a week ...( they both run good 1911's )..../... I know the guy with the red dot will be inaccurate and slow because he hasn't figured out the muscle memory to fire that red dot under the stress of a timer .....but he's starting to figure out that gun with that sight is a poor choice for him ...it isn't working for him ../.... one glock guy is so slow its like watching paint dry on his draw and first 2 shots ...then its rapid fire and reload fumbling...as he stresses out .../ ...the Browning high power guy will be about 80% on time and accurate...

It comes down to training.../ ....some range time.../ ...confidence...and picking the weapon that suits them the best.
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As an example, I can run that drill (Draw - Fire 6 - Reload - Fire 6 ) with a S&W model 19 or 66 revolver ( K frame in .357 Mag )...in about 10.5 Sec...so I'm still under the 11 sec....but not with 3 reloads.../ because it takes me close to 5 sec...( to dumpy empty rounds out of cyclinder - grab a Jet speed loader - drop 6 more rounds into the gun...and fire the 1st shot ).../ does that make the K frame .357 Mag a less effective home defense weapon than a 1911 with 8 +1 in the mag, no, not in my opinion....

But I know I do that with a K frame revolver in that time, because I train with that revolver a little.....and I test myself / and track my times...
Just like I know my reloads to 1 shot with a 1911...are about 2.7 sec.....
My draw to 1 shot on a 1911...is about 2.3 sec ( a little slow )...by Par time..
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None of us are "kids" ...and we have a number of physical issues with some arthritis, bad eyes, etc....and everyone is over 50 yrs old .../ a couple of us are in our mid 60's ...most of us are professionals, none of us are ex cops...we're just "shooters"...
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That's also -- why my personal choice for home defense....is either a mid sized S&W revolver in .357 Mag ( K or L frame ).../ or a full sized 1911 in .45 acp...over a shotgun of any type. A model 686 S&W in 6" is my nite stand gun ....and a Wilson Combat full sized, CQB model is my carry gun...

Like you, I shoot clays with my shotguns primarily -- and while I have some pump shotguns, they stay in the safe with my Over Unders... they just don't work as well for me, for home defense, in my view.
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There is no wrong answer to the OP's choice....its up to him.....

but if I were to guess...if he trains with the SXS---- from the ready :
to 1 shot ...( 2.0 sec ) ....2nd shot ( 0.3 sec )...Reload..(4 sec - to 1 shot ) ( 0.3 to 2nd shot ).... so about 6.6 sec ....from ready to fire 4 shots....is that good enough for home defense...?? The we get into what load ( "OO" vs 2's or 4's or whatever...)....and same thing on handguns....357 mag with 158 gr JHP, .45 acp with 230gr JHP, 9mm with 147 gr JHP...and on and on....

Is my 1911....( 8 + 1 in gun / mag of 8 on belt ) ...17 rds ...at 18.5 sec ok ??
Is my S&W .357 Mag - Reload & 12 rds/in 10.5 sec better than a 1911...or worse..??
Is a Sig 226 ...carrying 15 + 1 rds in 9mm ...better than any of the above...??
....in 9.5 sec.....with no reload....
Is a Sig 226 ..carrying 12 + 1 rds in .40 S&W..better ..??/..no reload in 8 sec.

I own Sig 226's in both 9mm and .40 S&W...and they have way more capacity than a 1911, so why do I think a S&W revolver or a 1911 ...are better choices for me...( its based on how they fit my hands, how well I shoot them - and my training ...)...could I make a Sig 226 work, sure.....

could I make a SXS shotgun work...sure.../ is how I look at it....
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