SW SDVE

[ThomasT]

Comparing a gun that has to be shot single action with a very light trigger against a gun made for combat use is not a fair evaluation. But since you want compare a single action cowboy gun against a combat pistol how fast can you send 15 rounds downrange with that hogleg? I can empty the 15 round mag on my SD9 in just a couple of seconds.

And once again did you watch the video I posted of Hickock45 shooting the SW9VE? He has no trouble at all making hits at rapid fire on small targets like 12oz canned sodas.

Anyway its apparent you don't like the S&W series of pistols. Thats fine. Everyone has their preferences. Good luck with yours.

 

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

Yes I left aside all Plastik guns for HD.
As a CCW although weight matters a lot so I go for an small 380 acp.

Emptying 15 rounds is easy. From the 15 rapid fire rounds maybe 5 are hits and 10 are misses. With the Revolver if stress is high, maybe you have 5 hits as well (and 1 miss).

Yes that is a bit apples vs oranges. In a combat Situation you definetelly want an semi Auto pistol. And on that regards the SD9VE shines superbly well since you can throw it away without much Money loss (in the USA. Not so here in Southamerica).
The SD9VE is a good pistol for a killer (easy to get rid of the gun).

However I start to hate a gun if there are constant misses. My personal experience.
The plow handle Revolver is the better gun for me and the better shooter. I don't shoot more than 10 rounds at a time at "range time" while you guys sometimes shoot 500 rounds easy in a session. People here prefer Revolvers since it Limits them to shoot much (Shooting is expensive). As well a reloading session for me is reloading a "whooping" 6 rounds at once. That takes me about 45 minutes (including seeping during reloading some Drinks and listen to the News on Radio).

So there you have it. My whooping reloading session means reloading the 6 rounds I happen to have fired with the Revolver. I may fire 6 rounds every 2 weeks and that is considered a "lot".

Over here there is no throwing 1000's of rounds downrange at once.

 

[ThomasT]

guyofsouthamerica I got a kick out of your post. The part about reloading only 6 rounds at a time tells a lot. I wouldn't be a very good shot either if all I got to shoot was 6 rounds every two weeks. Thats gotta be tough for a gun buff.

That guy in the video is a superb shot. But he didn't get that way by shooting so little. His skill comes from nothing more than a LOT of careful practice. Your post really makes me appreciate the freedoms we have here.

 

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

I shot today this bird (Hawk) from about 15 to 20 meters with the 148 grain Lee lead WC with the Revolver shown a few Posts ago (Heritage SAA 357 mag on post #60).
BTW, shot Placement is paramount. The bird did not die. It broke both wings and the bird would have been bleeding slowly out but that would have took about 1 day. I had to finish the Hawk off with another shot. They make a Sound imitating an Viper/snake to fend off enemies.

This again I would not have been achieved with the SD9VE.
I believe practice is NOT neccesary with an accurate gun like the Revolver. Contrary to the "Guns Training Industry", I believe gun courses are a waste of Money and needed only for those shabby inaccurate guns like all Plastik guns. If you have an awefull Trigger because the Gun industry wants to save some Money and rip you off the same high end Prices nevertheless, then you Need indeed lots of Training and gun courses.
Good again for the ammo industry isn't it?

It's a whole scheeeme of rip off's IMHO (to tell you the truth)!

With an good gun, you should hit your target even when not shot a few years. The missing is due to flinching because of recoil anticipation. So I load my rounds to about 1000 fps with an energy of a bit above 300 ft-lbs and this 36 oz gun is a soft shooter (no flinching due to recoil anticipation).
With the SD9VE I allways anticipated the recoil and had fear when the round went off.
That is why I switched to the 34 oz Beretta 92.

 

[TunnelRat]

I believe practice is NOT neccesary with an accurate gun like the Revolver. Contrary to the "Guns Training Industry", I believe gun courses are a waste of Money and needed only for those shabby inaccurate guns like all Plastik guns. If you have an awefull Trigger because the Gun industry wants to save some Money and rip you off the same high end Prices nevertheless, then you Need indeed lots of Training and gun courses.
Good again for the ammo industry isn't it?

It's a whole scheeeme of rip off's IMHO (to tell you the truth)!

I disagree with you completely. An excellent trigger can help mask deficiencies in marksmanship fundamentals, but the deficiencies are still there. I've actually found training with stock, heavier triggers makes going back to aftermarket, lighter triggers a walk in the park. It's similar to running with ankle weights or a pack in preparation for a race.

For me personally and a number of people I've known training has had a dramatic impact on both our marksmanship and our firearms handling (with the latter being more important for surviving an armed encounter than people give credit for, IMO). I can respect that your ability to shoot as many rounds as we can is limited due to cost and availability, but that isn't the case here. I'm going to shoot hundreds of rounds a week if for no other reason than I enjoy it. Training merely gives me more in my wheelhouse when I'm just practicing at the range and also an environment where I can move much more dynamically than the typical public range or private club (liability is always a concern here).

I respect the point of view that you bring to this forum as many of us don't know what it's like for shooters in South America. But saying it's all a scheme of rip offs when to my knowledge you've neither experienced it yourself nor understand the relative cost for a lot of this for Americans as opposed to people in your country is to me short sighted.

 

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

yeah!

It's like for Caterpillar's tax fraud avoiding the US 35% tax in favour of the 6% in Switzerland for Caterpillars spare part/repair branch.

Gun Training is a lucrative industry attached to the Gun industry.
Spare parts are more lucrative as the Caterpillar Bulldozer per se.

That's exactly what I mean. A gun course may run you of the Price of several guns as I have understood it. Not neccessary IMO. If you have done a course dont' be offended. But I don't think a gun course is more worth than 100 US$ all including.
I know many will be pisst off by my Statement specially the huge gun Training industry guys.

 

[TunnelRat]

It's like for Caterpillar's tax fraud avoiding the US 35% tax in favour of the 6% in Switzerland for Caterpillars spare part/repair branch.

I really don't see what Caterpillar has to do with this. We're not talking taxes being avoided by having corporate offices in other countries.

Gun Training is a lucrative industry attached to the Gun industry.
Spare parts are more lucrative as the Caterpillar Bulldozer per se.

No doubt there is money made in spare parts, but your typical handgun will go through thousands of rounds before needing part swaps. The idea that you need to constantly replace parts to keep training doesn't make sense. You could do a course every other month and at the end of a year maybe need to replace a recoil spring total, that might cost you $20. That's hardly enough for the industry to make a killing.

That's exactly what I mean. A gun course may run you of the Price of several guns as I have understood it. Not neccessary IMO.

The last day long course I took was $230 + ammo +gas. I can't buy several guns for that. Heck there isn't even one gun I want that I could buy for that.

If you have done a course dont' be offended. But I don't think a gun course is more worth than 100 US$ all including.

I wouldn't say I'm offended, I just don't really get what you're basing these comments on given you have no experience with what you're talking about. What are you basing "100 US$ all including" on? There are half day courses that run that much, but instructors have to be paid and it's not typically just a random person off the street. The instructor usually has some experience that warrants compensation at at least some level or he/she wouldn't bother. Ammo isn't particularly expensive in the US but it will add cost. And then transportation to the facility will cost some money.

I can throw out random numbers too, but that doesn't give them meaning. If you mean to say it isn't worth more than 100 US$ to you personally that's one thing, but personal opinion isn't a hard and fast rule.

 

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

How Long did the 230$ gun course take? 1 day?

That may be 230$ for the course and another 230$ for gas and ammo.

Good earnings.
230 x 30 days a month= 6900 US$ per month net earnings with just one student. Wow!

It would be as if you were earning 28.75 US$ per hour at Walmart as an employee.

 

[TunnelRat]

That may be 230$ for the course and another 230$ for gas and ammo.

But it wasn't. Maybe $150 for gas and ammo.

It would be as if you were earning 28.75 US$ per hour at Walmart as an employee.

Not everyone in the US works at Walmart...

If your argument is that it still costs money, then yes I agree it does and there are likely some that can't afford it. However, it's not in the realm of "the price of several guns" as you stated. Nor am I training literally every single day. Some people take a few courses a year, some one a month, some more. You choose how much you want to do and how frequently, but it doesn't have to be more cost prohibitive than owning a firearm in the first place (just as I'm not buying a gun every single day either).

 

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

What I mean is this:

The instructor could Charge you 25 US$ per 1 day Long course. That's what I mean with "ripp off" instructors.

You see These Kind of "cursitos" are all that familiar over here.
It Ends up at the end of the day you get an paper certificate and the instructor has "a hell lot of Money more than he did at the begin of the day".

If the instructor has 4 alumni per day then he would earn 4 x 25$ = 100$ per day which translates to 100/8 hs per day= 12.5 US$ per hour minimal wages let's assume.
An Price of 25$ per Student per day would be fair. Not 230$
It is easy Money for the instructor.

 

[TunnelRat]

So you're ignoring the cost of the land on which the facility is built, the cost of the facility in which the training takes place, the cost of the utilities and taxes for that land and facility, the cost for insurance in the case of a liability suit, the time it takes to develop the curriculum and make it known to the public, etc. You're ignoring a ton of factors in coming up with these numbers. This doesn't even have to do with firearms training in particular. These are factors that come into play for any business in the US.

For that matter no one in the US wants to make only $12 an hour, certainly not anyone with any kind of expertise. If I made only $12 an hour I wouldn't own a home. You realize the average home price in my neighborhood is $250,000, and that's actually middle of the road near me in terms of cost. Heck I'd be hard pressed to find an apartment to rent making only $12 an hour.

Is that instructor and school making money? Absolutely. This is a capitalist nation and if people are willing to pay then that's how it works. But again, it's not the cost of several guns as you stated. In many cases it's not even in the realm of one gun.

 

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

there are lots of homeless People in the US which never could afford an single course.

Maybe you are privileged but many are not so 230$ is a months or 2 months worth of Food in Canada at least when I was there. In extreme cases you could survive with 100$ for Food per month.
The instructor gains in just 1 day 1 months of Food worth! Wow

 

[TunnelRat]

there are lots of homeless People in the US which never could afford an single course.

Yes not having money generally means you can't afford things. There are homeless people in the US which would never be able to afford a gun in the first place either.

Maybe you are privileged but many are not so 230$ is a months or 2 months worth of Food in Canada at least when I was there. In extreme cases you could survive with 100$ for Food per month.

The instructor gains in just 1 day 1 months of Food worth! Wow

Yes people can survive on very little, but that's not the goal.

And all that instructor gained is not direct profit, as I stated. It goes to all the many costs I mentioned and more. For that matter, when you worked $100 for the course to an hourly rate it was $12 an hour. There are millions of Americans making that much or more. Again, when you don't live in a place you don't always understand the way it works.

 

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

O yes I understand perfectly how it works. Since ripp-off's are all that familiar over here.

"Rip-Off" Thugs almost allways work the same way with a similar Modus operandi: They rip-off.

It is a Ponzi scheeme and an snowball type scheme. Normally they excuse themselves with "we are living in an capitalist Society".

Normal earnings are indeed not the strong part of the capitalist System with it's ever growing inequality.
In "evil China" the upper 1% of most rich People owns 13% of the Country. The most poor 50% owns 15% of the country
In "saint USA" the upper 1% of most rich People owns 20% of the Country. The most poor 50% owns a meager 12% of the country
To speak with Dr. Wolff: le'mme sink that in! Long this Situation can not go on.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfNOWzCnbdQ&t=1415s

 

[TunnelRat]

O yes I understand perfectly how it works. Since ripp-off's are all that familiar over here.

"Rip-Off" Thugs almost allways work the same way with a similar Modus operandi: They rip-off.

It is a Ponzi scheeme and an snowball type scheme. Normally they excuse themselves with "we are living in an capitalist Society".

Right. So now you've branched into the realm of the philosophical in, bar none, the craziest example of a straw man argument I've ever seen on this forum because you realize you can't use actual facts to back up your initial claims about cost which were seemingly based on little to no understanding of the actual situation. This really doesn't fall into the realm of income inequality on the national and international level given it's discretionary spending, certainly no more than firearm ownership in the first place.

Live your socialist dream.

 

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

I studied economy as well and graduated.
But I never worked for this crocked Systems since I am not an ignorant and concienceless ripp-off thug.
The Banking Crash 2008 was due to inequality and rich ripping off poor and the US-governement had to assume huge depths to bail out the rich. Read your own history. Frank Delano Roosevelt and his taxes to the rich of 92% of gross income in 1945. FDR once dead the rich said: never again, Charge the public depth account with that. From then the US depth has accumulated to staggering numbers. (FDR was NOT an comunist)
It's bad Business to be ignorant of realities. Righteousness has nothing to do with comunism.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfNOWzCnbdQ&t=1415s

I shot today with the Revolver an Ostrich. 2nd shot hit from 40 meters and all other shots a miss.

Would not do this with an plastik pistol.

 

[TunnelRat]

I shot today with the Revolver an Ostrich. 2nd shot hit from 40 meters and all other shots a miss.

Would not do this with an plastok pistol.

First it was a hawk at 15-20 m, now an ostrich at 40 m. What do you have against birds?

And yes you would do it with a plastic pistol, if you were good.

 

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

Range time...

BTW, I reloaded all 7 whooping shots today I shot to the ostrich heard. They are here wild on grass lands. Normally 20 animals at once. They are beneficial...

 

[RoughDivider]

So basically you're saying with a longer sight radius and a better SA trigger you're able to make better shots? That's not shocking at all. As for me I have plenty of money to spend on training and range time and I could hit an ostrich at 40m with my polymer pistol no problem. They're a fairly decently sized target to boot. Your limitations aren't the limitations of other shooters and you need to stop preaching what works for you as the gospel truth for everyone else. The last couple months I've probably sent 800-1000 rounds downrange. I'm not rich by any means.

 

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

Holman Christian Standard Bible. 2 Timothy 4:2
Proclaim the Gospel; persist in it whether convenient or not; rebuke, correct, and encourage with great patience and teaching.

1000 rounds of 9mm Luger would cost here roughly 800 US$. You must be owning most certainly 20% of the Country being amongst of the upper class 1% since even in Canada at my time nobody would Shell out 800 bucks for ammo.

Yes that is correct: the light Trigger makes all the difference with one the Plastik pistol Triggers never can compete.
The Oldtimers knew to make good guns; an art which sometimes seems to be lost mostly.
The Beretta 92 Comes Close to an SAA Trigger as well; so that is a viable Option.