Suggest ways to protect school age children.

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This still does nothing to address the CAUSES; putting bandaids on severed arteries does nothing to stop the bleeding. This was a 100% preventable event. Even the FBI totally dropped the ball on this (was it deliberate or accidental I'll leave to conspiracy theorists). This is an issue with many factors, from mental health to a breakdown of traditional family scenarios to massive drug (legal and illegal), exposure to constant violence and on and on. Couple all of that with an instant world-wide media access and these get overblown instantaneously. Kids were more interested in texting friends and taking videos than getting themselves or their friends to safety......

I agree with the bold 100%, and further school shootings are not the only symptom of how society has changed (for better or worse). I have observed the over-reliance on electronics with my own daughters. At any rate, however, the causes of this is not something that I'm sure can be completely addressed. We say "mental health," but we have had threads here that highlight the arbitrary nature of deeming someone a prohibited person because they aren't mentally fit. Yes, straight up hard-core schizophrenics probably shouldn't own firearms. What about mild depression? PTSD? I also agree 100% that the cause of the FBI dropping the ball on this should be investigated. And that the breakdown of family systems also exacerbates the issue, but honestly how do we fix that? This is a peculiar time that we live in...

At any rate, I digress. I don't understand why allowing able bodied, proficient, and willing teachers to be armed gets such a knee-jerk negative reaction. You could even have said teachers complete the same yearly firearm training as law enforcement for virtually free (Police have to give the class to their officers anyway, it wouldn't be much extra time or expense to allow selected teachers to sit in). This would be so easy to enact, and virtually free.
 
Fortifying schools will just move the attack, school buses or any wear else children congregate.

You could even have said teachers complete the same yearly firearm training as law enforcement for virtually free (Police have to give the class to their officers anyway, it wouldn't be much extra time or expense to allow selected teachers to sit in). This would be so easy to enact, and virtually free.

Most teachers and teachers unions will not agree with teachers being armed, they are in the teaching profession not the army or police.
 
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You could even have said teachers complete the same yearly firearm training as law enforcement for virtually free (Police have to give the class to their officers anyway, it wouldn't be much extra time or expense to allow selected teachers to sit in). This would be so easy to enact, and virtually free.

PSST.. little secret: wouldn't it be just as easy to deputize (with appropriate training) some of the teachers judged appropriate and willing to do it and then have them carry under the law enforcement officers safety act? I have heard (not first hand) around here of some first responders being deputized to avoid potential issues when they carry.
 
An effective armed deterrent would have to be on school grounds, armed, and ready to engage.

Simply put, stick a retired vet with a Glock 19 on his hip and a Mossberg 590 with slugs in every school. Make sure he has no misconceptions of officer safety and is willing to move to the sound of the guns.

Much like the Israeli model, but not an armed teacher. I teacher needs to teach. Let an old washed up infantry guy like me do it.
 
Simply put, stick a retired vet with a Glock 19 on his hip and a Mossberg 590 with slugs in every school. Make sure he has no misconceptions of officer safety and is willing to move to the sound of the guns.

That's not going to happen. PS What if the vet went on a shooting rampage at the school. ?
 
That's like I asking "what if the SRO went on a shooting spree" or what if a cop on shooting spree

We can discus it but as i said its not going to happen, plus as i have also said if schools are fortified the shooter change location or method of attack were children congregate. These people might be mad, but i doubt they are all stupid. The sad fact is if someone is determined to carry out this type of attack, there is very little that can be done to stop them.
 
I'm not saying this will prevent them. I'm saying that having an armed response there drastically reduces casualties.

This mess of set up a perimeter and wait for a SWAT team cost lives in Columbine and did in Florida, too.

And schools are the issue, to me anyway, because for the most part they are Gun Free Zones.

Other locations have the possibility of CCW holders being there.
 
Arm teachers who can volunteer for it, who are capable, can pass the needed training by LE, and do not broadcast who they are. They carry fully concealed so that no kids know or even other teachers who are not also armed.

There are a lot of teachers very qualified to carry, many are ex-vets, some are even ex-federal agents or local LE. Federal agents have college degrees, I don't believe it is hard to get a teaching certificate after retirement.

I know at least a half dozen teachers in UT who go to work everyday with a concealed weapon and are doing so legally. No requirement to notify the school district (so long as it is public, does not apply to private schools). Two are ex-marines who served about six years, left the service, went to college and came out as teachers. I know they could easily do the job.

The rest of the ones I know are just very well trained and I would guess to save kids, they would jump in the way of the bullet and fire back.

Just need a UT concealed weapons permit; not hard to obtain.

Banning so-called assault rifles won't stop the problem, a guy with two handguns killed more in Virginia tech years ago.

Raising the age to 21 for so-called assault rifles won't work either. A kid in CT killed his mother, stole her AR and killed quite a few kids.

Unless you can remove every gun in the world a nut will be able to get a gun and kill people and that includes kids.

In 2014 a guy in China killed 33 with a knife. Guess we need to ban knives too.

We have to change a school from a soft target to a hard target. Something to make the killer think twice about entering. Honestly, the term "gun free school zone" should be changed to "gun free shooting zone." Sure looks like that gun free school zone idea really scares away those who want to commit mass murder.

If we do something like this, it will push the nutcase (sorry, I am not politically correct and never will be) to another soft target like the neighborhood mall. I live in ID, I have never seen an armed guard at my bank, or at the mall, and when I lived in the east, before retiring, can't say I ever saw an armed guard at any mall or bank and that includes in the Detroit and Nashville areas. However, never noticed any NO GUN signs either.

Or if all else fails, the will just stand in the middle of an intersection at rush hour and shoot away. But we need to stop these nuts from shooting unprotected kids so easily.
 
Protecting schools? The only practical way to deal with it is a layered defense with more than one armed guard. It will be expensive to maintain. The one guard sitting inside an office drinking coffee isn't enough. Allowing teachers and administrators to be armed is okay, but they really don't have the training for the most part.

ID cards that can be scanned may need to be issued to school students to pass through some sort of screening prior to entering the building. So, some physical modifications to most schools will have to happen. The key is to not allow the shooter inside the building. Stop them in the parking lot and be pretty ruthless in the enforcement.
 
Manta49 said:
We can discus it but as i said its not going to happen, plus as i have also said if schools are fortified the shooter change location or method of attack were children congregate.

That's an interesting point.

We have so much security at airports, malls, banks and concerts that schools my be one of the few densely populated but very safe (for the killer) places to do his thing.
 
Who pays for all this? Here in Maine there are thousands of schools, maybe a handful have armed police protection. None that I’m aware of have hardened security and metal detectors.

And even if we achieve and pay for those objectives then these losers will find soft targets like daycare centers. And if you want to homeschool then good for you, it isn’t a realistic option for most- or a means to continue as a society if universally adopted.

This pathetic and troubled kid in Florida couldn’t buy a six-pack, but he could buy an AR-15. After dozens of complaints about him to local law enforcement and at least one to the FBI. Let’s start by fixing the problems with the system in place before creating new systems.
 
No, not given his history with law enforcement and established instability. Could he have legally purchased a handgun at that age?
 
I wonder if treating kids like competent beings instead of liabilities would help give them more self-worth, in addition to more respect for firearms
That would have a chance at working in a perfect world.
But the problem goes much deeper. Kids are not being raised by parents anymore. Their electronic devices, tv, movies, have more influence than any single human.

And what would a school do when they encounter students with mental health deficiencies? Exclude them from this training about firearms? That stigmatizes them, and is against most school policies. Gotta make sure everyone is included! Participation awards for EVERYONE.

I dont think the problem is about guns or even desensitization to violence. I think its an overexposure to the outside world. Take away social media, smart phones, electronics from these kids. Let them find out what its like to create their own entertainment.
 
No, not given his history with law enforcement and established instability. Could he have legally purchased a handgun at that age?
I suspect at least a third of all adults would be barred from owning firearms if "mental instability" was a factor, Feeling a little depressed..... not eating right?.... must be depressed and your local doctor prescribes medication... It is a slippery slope and any restrictions relative to mental illness will have to be very carefully evaluated and worded.

Not a FL resident, but I believe Cruz could have purchased a handgun from another individual versus FFL dealer. He would have had no problem keeping it off the books if he cared about that.
 
SonOfScubaDiver said:
Aguila, I wasn't talking about pushing a button on the handle to lock the door. I was talking about a button that would be pushed from the office that would tell all the doors to close and lock. Something like a magnetic system that would hold the doors open and then release them to close and lock them once that button was pushed.
They've had such systems for close to twenty years. I've been out of the game for more than ten years, but my guess would be that all or most NEW schools are built with such systems. The fly in the ointment is that the majority of schools in this country aren't schools that were built in the last ten to fifteen years, they're a lot older. And it costs big money to retrofit an old building with a fancy electronic, remote control locking system like that. The school districts that are probably the most in need of such systems are also those that are probably the least likely to be able to pay for them.

But a lot can be done by simply eliminating stupidity -- or outflanking it. A couple of "war" stories may illustrate my point:

1. Sandy Hook. That school had a new security system that had just gone on-line shortly before the shooting. Basically, the doors were locked during the school day, and visitors had to press a button and be buzzed in by someone in the main office. Good. Except -- the doors were glass, and beside the doors were floor-to-ceiling height glass sidelights. The shooter arrived, didn't get buzzed in, so he did what any self-respecting shooter would do and blew out the glass so he could walk in.

2. Neighboring town to me: Right after sandy Hook, the town next to mine announced that they were installing a new security system in their grammar school. I was curious, and I knew the building official, so I asked what the new system was. Scout's honor - it was exactly the same as the system that had failed at Sandy Hook. And the school in question also had glass doors and sidelights.

3. The parochial high school my daughter attended for awhile had opaque (solid) entrance doors with no glass in the doors and no sidelights. Cool -- no way to shoot your way in, you'd need explosives. Doors were locked during the school day. One door had a doorbell that visitors could ring to be admitted. Remember I said the doors were opaque? That means whoever was inside couldn't see who was ringing the doorbell. The buzzer was in the main office, which was some distance remote from the entrance doors and didn't have direct line of sight. When the doorbell rang, whoever in the office was nearest to the buzzer just pressed it and released the door -- no way to identify who was out there, and no attempts made to do so.

4. The public high school in my town did a renovation and addition project about a decade ago. I did the plan review for the final construction documents on behalf of the town. Not a code violation, but I commented that since they (the building committee) had expressed a specific desire to institute measures to protect against a Columbine-like incident, they had done some dumb things. Such as (a) the entrance doors were all glass and had huge glass sidelights. (Just like Sandy Hook, but this was a few years before the Sandy Hook shooting.) (b) In the new wings, the classrooms had glass sidelights. When I pointed out how vulnerable these were to attack, the architect's response was, "But we like them." So they built the school with the glass sidelights. (c) They installed the new "Classroom Security Function" locks on the new classroom doors -- but they left the old classroom doors with the old Classroom Function locks that require the teacher to step into the corridor to lock the door. Bad enough -- but then I asked if they had any "floating" teachers -- such as an art, music, or specialty instructor who didn't have a dedicated classroom but instead "floated" from classroom to classroom. Yes, they did. I asked if the "floaters" were given the key to each classroom in which they taught. Answr: "Um, er, ah, ____." Okay, what about substitute teachers -- do they get the key to whatever classroom they'll be assigned to? No, the custodial staff opens the door in the morning, and the teacher teaches. I asked what the substitute is supposed to do if there's a call for a lockdown. Answer: "Um, er, ah, ___."

So one thing that I believe should be done is what the U.S. government already does with secure installations: Hire professional mercenaries to figure out how to beat the security system. How did the Florida shooter get into a supposedly secure building? He WALKED IN. He knew that they unlocked the gates twenty minutes before dismisal, so he waited until twenty minutes before dismissal and then waltzed right in, unchallenged and unopposed.

The Florida school was a multi-building campus with a student population of over 3,000. That's larger than many towns in my state. The school had ONE school resource officer (who may or may not have even been on the campus that day, but that's a separate question). Based on national ratios of police-to-population, the school probably should have had four or five SROs. But the school didn't want to pay for five full-time cops, and the Sheriff's office doesn't have the staff or the budget to assign five deputies to one school if the school board doesn't pay for it, so they got one -- or maybe none that day.

Aside from the necessary but difficult discussion about mental health, if we want to make our schools safer (note that I said "safer," not "safe"), we need to demand that the people in charge of them THINK about their security. The plan needs to be multi-level, multi-pronged ... and then it needs to be submitted to objective outsiders like me, whose job will be to ask the embarrassing questions like, "Do the substitutes have the key to the door?"

:doh:

Somebody needs to do more than just specify the latest hardware gadgets and think the job is done. That's barely even a start. What's important is how the system actually responds in the event of a bomb threat ... an actual explosion ... an active shooter ... multiple active shooters ... or [___]. Murphy's law is always in effect. You have all the newest bells and whistles -- now, what can possibly go wrong with your fancy new system? Good ... now, what else?
 
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I can't blame the FBI for 'dropping the ball.' They likely receive multiple tips a day about possible school shooters. They can't just dispatch a SWAT team every time they get such a call. For this one clear case they should have done more there are probably a thousand or more cases that never materialized into a threat and a good number where they did involve themselves. Besides, with their current very borderline entrapment investigations with terrorists, I would hate to see them apply similar tactics to possible school shooters.

A lot of them should probably be locked up before they commit the crime but in this country we don't have sanitarium's any more! We somehow violate crazy people's right using them!
To a large extent I agree, but...
For every insane school shooter there are hundreds of people with psychiatric issues that will never commit a similar act. As much as I hate to say it, I'd be willing to bet the numbers are no worse than guns v. guns used in crimes.

I would resist the notion that people aren't considered valuable unless we fully socialize the costs of parenting.
We socialize risk to savings account from robberies by socializing their financial insurance(FDIC). Hardly anyone complains about that. I have never heard of a person closing their bank accounts to protest FDIC.
You say people, but I specified children for a reason. I don't expect a 12 year old to pay for their own insurance with babysitting and a paper route. There comes a point at which people need to take responsibility for themselves and work three jobs to pay the bills if necessary, but it isn't 12 IMO.
All of the above mentioned ideas are old. They have all been thrown around for a decade or more. They are expensive. These events are not common. No one is going to spend the money, especially with how many school districts are fighting leaky roofs, 50 students in a classroom, and embarrassingly outdated technological infrastructure. It would be a waste of money, especially considering how much of the system is basically subsidized warehousing/babysitting more than education.
 
ID cards that can be scanned may need to be issued to school students to pass through some sort of screening prior to entering the building. So, some physical modifications to most schools will have to happen. The key is to not allow the shooter inside the building. Stop them in the parking lot and be pretty ruthless in the enforcement.

Then he will wait to school closing and wait outside the school.
 
And it goes on

Somebody needs to do more than just specify the latest hardware gadgets and think the job is done. That's barely even a start. What's important is how the system actually responds in the event of a bomb threat ... an actual explosion ... an active shooter ... multiple active shooters ... or [___]. Murphy's law is always in effect. You have all the newest bells and whistles -- now, what can possibly go wrong with your fancy new system? Good ... now, what else?

Its a society problem not a technological one.

We fortress the school and we have a fire (more likely) and we burn how many kids to death because they can't get out?

Yep, Arm the Teachers! How many teachers want to be armed?

Well lets force them to carry guns! Cops kill innocents all the time, how well does a teacher do who even wants to carry a gun? And those who want to carry should?

Don't get me wrong, police have a tough job, but they are trained and they still do some really stupid things because they are not suited to their job. Nothing weeds out the ones who pass the tests but should not be.

Armed teachers are going to be better?

Gun owners are a minority in the country. A bit one.

At some point the majority can change the constipation (its been amended a lot of times)

Maybe time to agree to see if there are solutions that work.

18 year old kid can't drink, but can buy an AR with no community background check.

18 year old has to have a license to drive a car because after all, its not the cars fault that it wiped out 4 lives or 6 or ?

Tools can be used rightly or wrongly. The decider is the user.
 
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