Suggest ways to protect school age children.

[SonOfScubaDiver]

The schools need to be hardened up. For example, this latest shooter manage to get all these kids out in the hallways by pulling the fire alarm. Why, in this day and of electronic everything, are schools still relying on such an outdated way of detecting fires? A sensor based system that included video surveillance and fire proof doors to isolate the area where a fire was detected would make much more sense. Also, doors leading into classrooms need to be hardened and made to automatically close and lock at the push of a button. Any outside facing windows need to be upgraded to bulletproof glass. Playgrounds need to have fences or walls around them with video surveillance. Yes, it would cost a lot of money. No, I don't think it would prevent all school shootings from occurring. But I do think it would go a long way in making it much more difficult for anyone to walk into a school and go on a killing spree.

 

[TDL]

US gun murder rate is down between 55% to 60% the past generation (since early 1990) depending on whether you look at CDC or FBI. Looking at the age cohorts it looks like school age youth cohort 5-20 is a larger drop than other cohorts. There are "notable" media covered events but these are statically trivial outliers, and there is nothing to indicate that massive decrease in school age children murdered is less in school/school grounds/zones than the overall decrease in that cohort.

So I think a starting point is that despite people saying 'the old days were safer," and in fact that error is a misconception of the majority of Americans, an inversion of the core metric, is to recognize that our kids have never been safer from lethal violence than they are today.

The fact is in the rest of the world, the ability to bring someone in for mental health violations is easier, people can be held longer to be tested, the thresholds for committing them are less. The ACLU (for good and for bad) has systematically made it more difficult with scores of major court fights the past 40 years. Just as our First, Second, Fourth, Fifth and Sixth amendments rights are in practice subtly or markedly stronger than most developed democracies.

I have kids in school, but I also understand that the long term trends are they are much safer than when I was in school, and all our constitutional rights can be shown to make us less "safe."

FYI if we outside of the main trend, and cherry pick data with defintion of murder situation's, one can show anything. One can show Australia has had larger mass murder of children after mass gun confiscation than before, one can show Europe has had much bigger ones than the US (Utoya, Beslin). It is best to go with the overall rate of murder of school age cohort -- which in the USA is way WAY down.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

The schools need to be hardened up. For example, this latest shooter manage to get all these kids out in the hallways by pulling the fire alarm. Why, in this day and of electronic everything, are schools still relying on such an outdated way of detecting fires?

Fire alarms aren't for detecting fires, they are for activating alarms. Manual pull station alarms may be a requirement in Florida's building and/or fire codes. My state requires them for certain occupancies -- I'd have to research whether or not that includes schools.

Also, doors leading into classrooms need to be hardened and made to automatically close and lock at the push of a button.

Conflicting criteria. I've worked on schools, including specifying the door hardware. Your front door lock probably uses a key from the outside, and a button that you push in and turn (a "thumbturn") from the inside. This type of lock is cleverly called an "Entrance function" lockset. No good in schools, because that would allow the kids to lock the teacher out of his/her own classroom if the teacher happened to step out into the hall.

Going back many years, there was (and still is) a lock function called "Classroom." A "Classroom" function lock has nothing on the inside knob (or lever, today), and a key tumbler on the outside. The door is always able to be opened from the inside, even when locked (fire codes again). It can only be locked or unlocked from the outside, using a key.

And that's where things stood for decades ... until Columbine. Suddenly people awoke to the security issues of a shooter in the school. The traditional classroom lock required the teacher to step out in the corridor in order to lock the door if a lockdown was called for. So the lock manufacturers came up with a new design, called a "Classroom Security Function" lockset. Same as the old classroom locks, except for the addition of a key tumbler on the inside. With this new Classroom Security Function lock, the teacher can lock the door without needing to enter the corridor and expose him/herself to gunfire.

Following on that, for the schools that can afford it, the lock makers have come up with integrated, electronic, remote control systems whereby all classroom doors can be locked by a signal from the central office. Nice systems, but VERY pricey, and prohibitively expensive to be considered for retrofit in existing schools due to the cost of running the wiring on top of the cost of the hardware itself.

Schools built today are probably a mix between the Classroom Security Function manual locks, and the remote electronic systems. But there are a LOT of existing schools that I'll bet still have the older Classroom Function locks on the classroom doors.

 

[SonOfScubaDiver]

Aguila, I wasn't talking about pushing a button on the handle to lock the door. I was talking about a button that would be pushed from the office that would tell all the doors to close and lock. Something like a magnetic system that would hold the doors open and then release them to close and lock them once that button was pushed.

As for local codes--I'm sure something passed on a federal level would take precedence over any local or state codes.

And who cares what it costs? We manage to pull hundreds of billions of dollars out of the nation's collective backside to pay for unnecessary wars. It's time we redirect some of that money.

 

[FITASC]

This still does nothing to address the CAUSES; putting bandaids on severed arteries does nothing to stop the bleeding. This was a 100% preventable event. Even the FBI totally dropped the ball on this (was it deliberate or accidental I'll leave to conspiracy theorists). This is an issue with many factors, from mental health to a breakdown of traditional family scenarios to massive drug (legal and illegal), exposure to constant violence and on and on. Couple all of that with an instant world-wide media access and these get overblown instantaneously. Kids were more interested in texting friends and taking videos than getting themselves or their friends to safety......

 

[In The Ten Ring]

I emailed this to the White House just last week. *Local police could expand Reserve Officer Corps and put those volunteers into schools, that would get around the law on no guns in schools as police are exempt. There are plenty retired vets and other retired good guys that would step up.

Teachers that want to be armed should be armed. Background checks on teachers are already more strict than on buying guns, just one bad report from a principal (subjective only) ends teacher careers all the time.

I wouldn't send my children to public schools due to the lax discipline and social promotion. It's never a good idea to go into a Murder Magnet Zone anyway.

 

[olddav]

Schools are gun free zones (in general) and that equates to a "soft target". The best way to protect schools and students is to harden the target with armed trained personnel. A dedicated group can overwhelm any defenses, so you can't prevent all attacks, but you can render the lone shooter ineffective.

 

[In The Ten Ring]

Right on olddav, after the Marine recruiting office in TN was shot up in 2015, hundreds of patriots, both veteran and not, stepped up to protect their local offices.

This was a big success as the populace (the ones I met anyway) was very supportive, overwhelmingly so, and after a time, the O. administration very quietly dropped the "soldiers and marines can't be trusted with guns" rule. I think it came down to local commanders though.

 

[Pahoo]

Staying on point !!!

This still does nothing to address the CAUSES;

That is part of the mix and should be addressed but don't hold your breath on that one. What the OP is talking about, is what can be done tomorrow, on the local level and in our schools. Victims, Firearms and bad guys are all connected and there are fixes in all in all three. BumpStock is a "small" bone but part of an overall solution. .....

Be Safe !!!

 

[Danoobie]

Let me put it like this:

Would you place money, jewels, collector's items, ANY asset of value,
unlocked, and unguarded, in a school, over 200 days a year?

Then WHY do we do this with our most valuable asset, our children?

 

[FITASC]

Then WHY do we do this with our most valuable asset, our children?

Because, unless you make other educational arrangements, the law stipulates it.

 

[Lohman446]

Because, unless you make other educational arrangements, the law stipulates it.

And local schools are incentived with per pupil funding, through the use of enforcement agents that cost them nothing to use, to assure that you comply fully with those stipulations.

 

[DaleA]

Then WHY do we do this with our most valuable asset, our children?

I think I get your point Danoobie. As I mentioned earlier I'd be in favor of moving the police substations into the schools. There's more schools than substations in the Twin Cities so I'd be in favor of a police presence in the other schools too.

I would hope the students and faculty and parents would realize the police were there to protect folk. I have NO patience with people that think there should be NO police in schools.

Also, if folk working at the school are willing to take some training I'd be in favor of letting them carry in school too. And since the 'gun free zone' thing doesn't stop the bad guys let's let people that can legally carry, carry.

 

[johnwilliamson062]

Then WHY do we do this with our most valuable asset, our children?

Because pretty much no one actually thinks children are the most valuable asset, as cute as it is to say that. If they were children under 18 would have universal healthcare, guarantee of a decent education, etc. Does anyone in this thread really think a 12 year old should be punished b/c their parents didn't provide insurance OR were too lazy to go through whatever necessary paperwork to get the children subsidized insurance from the government? Yes, there are programs that are pretty much free, but the parents have to take an afternoon to fill out the paperwork and quite a few don't bother.

YOUR children may be YOUR most valued asset, but the countries children CLEARLY are not the countries most valuable asset, and not all parents value their children.

With 3,000 people in a school and something like 16 officers per 10,000 individuals per capita... ...shouldn't there have been about 4 or 5 dedicated officers to that school in Florida?

You have to remember those officers cover all shifts. A 24 hour week constitutes about 4 shifts, so there really should be about one at any given time. Despite this instances, schools are not high crime dangerous places. A large nursing home may have several thousand residents and visitors on campus 24 hours a day, but they are not going to station an officer there.

At the end of the day I don't think police in Schools will ever happen at the necessary scale. The cost of police in my area is too high. $30+ an hour plus really expensive benefits. Total compensation cost in the range of $50+ an hour.
Armed guards in my area receive around $20 an hour with almost no benefits and most are more or less brawlers. The armed guards who work in gang infested low income housing developments or the waffle house next to a strip club wouldn't do well in a school setting.

As far as police substations, I don't know if I have ever resided in a municipality that had more than one station. The cities all do, but many of the suburbs just have one station.

 

[Lohman446]

I assume the children of various Presidents have not been home schooled. I would also assume we have "assured" their safety. Thus I would conclude we know how to do it we are simply unwilling to do it for the rest of us.

 

[zukiphile]

Then WHY do we do this with our most valuable asset, our children?

Because pretty much no one actually thinks children are the most valuable asset, as cute as it is to say that. If they were children under 18 would have universal healthcare, guarantee of a decent education, etc. Does anyone in this thread really think a 12 year old should be punished b/c their parents didn't provide insurance OR were too lazy to go through whatever necessary paperwork to get the children subsidized insurance from the government? Yes, there are programs that are pretty much free, but the parents have to take an afternoon to fill out the paperwork and quite a few don't bother.

I would resist the notion that people aren't considered valuable unless we fully socialize the costs of parenting.

I assume the children of various Presidents have not been home schooled. I would also assume we have "assured" their safety.

I have a sense that some of us are over-shooting (no pun) the goal of reasonable school safety. Before we give every child a multiman secret service detail to get him from his medicaid appointment and to his college prep courses, why not try the easy things?

It probably doesn't require extensive training in being a human shield for a president, or even police academy training to recognize a shooter in a school as a problem. Could the janitor carry his bag of sawdust and his own concealed carry pistol? Could we stick a gun lock on a carbine and issue a few keys to willing teachers?

If a speed bump will do, why build Hadrian's wall?

 

[Don Fischer]

Sad to think of cops patrolling our school halls and locked school door's but, I suspect that is the way it will in time go. If we are going to add that then why not bullet proof glass in the doors? Probably wouldn't hurt in the class room either. How about auto locking classroom doors? Truth is that getting a school shot up is a bad thing but let's look at averages, everyone seem's to like them. With all the kids in the country and their school's this is a rare occurrence. What need s to be done I think is a mandatory death sentence for anyone even attempting it! Sure are there are those that will do it anyway, heck, if they can't do it one way they will do it another. They all must know that killing someone like that in a lot of state's get's you the death penalty, they don't seem to care.

A lot of them should probably be locked up before they commit the crime but in this country we don't have sanitarium's any more! We somehow violate crazy people's right using them! You cannot repair the insane and tings like these school shooting's and simply shooting into crowds are the area of the insane individual. They should be put away for their own good! But forbid we do that! Evil exist's in this world, always has and always will. Shoot up a school and the evil one get's lot's of press; well goody he got what he wanted, noticed!And it causes a great sensation just as this and every other one has, since we got this instant new's all over the country! The thing that perhaps the criminal want's more than anything is noticed. Well shoot up a school. Your name will be known by everyone in the country soon as the new's can find it out!

Probably with all the problem's we have in this society, the worst thing about it is the news want's a story that will sell right away, regardless of fact's, minor detail. O.J. Simpson was found guilty and convicted by the news before a jury was even picked! We the people really don't need the story as it breaks. The new's is to me the biggest detriment to a civil society for no other reason than than they are willing to sensationalize what is happening!

If I was a crazy wanting everyone to know how I was it's easy. Shoot a bunch of kids, doesn't even need to be in a school but, all lack of protection in school's makes them an easy target!

 

[seanc]

Why do we need a new suggestion when authorities admit they didn't do their due diligence in this case?

The question is: How do we get those responsible to do their job?

The FBI and local law enforcement all admit they dropped the ball. Adding another protocol to the incompetents/lackadaisical list isn't going to fix anything. Accountability will go a long way, and not just for protecting kids. It seems the same FBI and local authorities dropped the ball for the Matteen Orlando shooting as well. I'm not saying to fire all FBI agents. I'm betting this is a management issue, not a field agent issue. If management makes this an issue, it'll get taken care of. I'll also bet all those FBI agents are up to date on their gender equality and white privilege sensitivity educational requirements.

After 8 years of the Obama admin telling law enforcement to back off on Muslims and Black Lives Matter and telling schools to back off on discipline in the name of racial disparity, we're falling into chaos. We don't (necessarily) need a new solution, we need to look at what worked before.

 

[FITASC]

I assume the children of various Presidents have not been home schooled. I would also assume we have "assured" their safety. Thus I would conclude we know how to do it we are simply unwilling to do it for the rest of us.

They go to private schools with a full compliment of Secret Service around them.

What's your idea to pay for that for every school child? You think $15,000,000,000,000 in debt is too high? Paying for that protection would make it go sky-high.

 

[Lohman446]

My comment was intended as illustrative in nature. It is possible to give far better protection to our children. We chose not to. As you note its a choice fueled by economics but still a choice