Students bring Confederate flag to school, can't attend graduation.
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applesanity
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Hey, it's France. Their country, their rules. I just feel there are better ways to force a melting pot onto your citizens than telling where and when people can practice their faiths.
Now, is it a case of you not liking religious people? That's fine. If such is the case, please don't impose it on others.
Well see, remember that massive thread about the FLDS? I remember Antipitas quoting a SCUTUS case about the fat line that exists when your religious beliefs trumps on the rights other others. A giant diamond-studded golden crucifix necklace, or a yarmulke, or a headscarf ain't encroaching on your fellow man. Those three examples don't even come close to that extreme case of Sharia law you're citing.
The reason I brought up the headscarf thing was just a case for the slippery slope argument. The point of this thread was to talk about schools censoring stuff if they "can reasonably disrupt the educational process."
Is the banning of overt displays of religion in France akin to saying, "religion disrupts the educational process?" That cuts really, really deep.
On the other hand it's just a freaking Confederate flag. Come on.
By the way,
Is not what you're thinking of.
I reckon the ACLU has a chance of winning a suit to have the rules changed...
Recently in a podunk Florida county they had a judgement to overturn the banning of gay related stuff.
I am a proud southerner and wear my confederate battle flag tattoo proudly on my chest. My whole family considers the "Dixie Outfitters" brand of clothing to be premium gift ideas... While they have banned wearing it in the county schools, one refuses to do anything to a student for wearing them. But this is also a school that is very rural and the ag teacher will ask to borrow a pocket knife from a student to cut open feed bags or cut rope and twine... and he knows who packs a sharp one too.
As far as HATRED I have only seen it from a black person regarding the flag. I had a BMX race team and was at a big state race and a competing team had the battle flag front and back on their jerseys. They had a recent addition to their team that the team owner paid his way there, entry fees, bike upgrades etc... The young black kid was pretty darn good too. The parents obviously played little role in his life as he had been racing locally with this team for a couple months in their home town in south florida and had no clue what the jersey looked like. The first time they seen him go around the track during practice session they BLEW UP... I thought I would have to step in to stop a fight but only asked them to take their sorry azz foul mouth away from the children. They roughly jerked the jersey off their son and hit the road... who suffered? The southern BMX team owner? NOPE... he was out a few hundred bucks but that is nothing compared to what I feel the boy suffered! Not one single participating rider had anything but friendship and comraderie for this young man. I even offered to put a jersey from my team on him and amend my team roster to let him run but they were having no part of it!
Hatred and bigotry just burns my britches!
Brent
Recently in a podunk Florida county they had a judgement to overturn the banning of gay related stuff.
I am a proud southerner and wear my confederate battle flag tattoo proudly on my chest. My whole family considers the "Dixie Outfitters" brand of clothing to be premium gift ideas... While they have banned wearing it in the county schools, one refuses to do anything to a student for wearing them. But this is also a school that is very rural and the ag teacher will ask to borrow a pocket knife from a student to cut open feed bags or cut rope and twine... and he knows who packs a sharp one too.
As far as HATRED I have only seen it from a black person regarding the flag. I had a BMX race team and was at a big state race and a competing team had the battle flag front and back on their jerseys. They had a recent addition to their team that the team owner paid his way there, entry fees, bike upgrades etc... The young black kid was pretty darn good too. The parents obviously played little role in his life as he had been racing locally with this team for a couple months in their home town in south florida and had no clue what the jersey looked like. The first time they seen him go around the track during practice session they BLEW UP... I thought I would have to step in to stop a fight but only asked them to take their sorry azz foul mouth away from the children. They roughly jerked the jersey off their son and hit the road... who suffered? The southern BMX team owner? NOPE... he was out a few hundred bucks but that is nothing compared to what I feel the boy suffered! Not one single participating rider had anything but friendship and comraderie for this young man. I even offered to put a jersey from my team on him and amend my team roster to let him run but they were having no part of it!
Hatred and bigotry just burns my britches!Brent
It is a slippery slope and personally I have little but contempt for religion which I consider... well I leave that out. I do recognize you have a right to it though and should be able to practice freely so long as it does not harm another. Where does the harm take place though? Would brainwashing a child from birth to believe a religious dogma which preaches hate be considered damaging?
While I believe it is I draw the line at things that DIRECTLY harm another when it comes to gov't interference. Preach whatever ludicrous and hateful dogma you want, it's your right.
Now schools are something else. They are the best hope for integrating a new generation into society. They are the best way to help the children of immigrant succeed in their new land. As such reinforcing differences is probably not the best thing to do there and restricting the overt displays of religion in a school of diverse backgrounds and religions where purely secular matters should be taught seems a good policy to me. That is for schools. If someone wants to work for the gov't and wear a headscarf they should be allowed so long as it is not directly a detriment to the job itself. Private companies should be able to establish their own rules.
While I believe it is I draw the line at things that DIRECTLY harm another when it comes to gov't interference. Preach whatever ludicrous and hateful dogma you want, it's your right.
Now schools are something else. They are the best hope for integrating a new generation into society. They are the best way to help the children of immigrant succeed in their new land. As such reinforcing differences is probably not the best thing to do there and restricting the overt displays of religion in a school of diverse backgrounds and religions where purely secular matters should be taught seems a good policy to me. That is for schools. If someone wants to work for the gov't and wear a headscarf they should be allowed so long as it is not directly a detriment to the job itself. Private companies should be able to establish their own rules.
applesanity
New member
That almost sounds like, "a homogenous class is an integrated class." Maybe so. But for some kids, I suspect, coming to a new land, you feel a bit lost and out of place. Holding on to some bits of your past, whether it be a flag with mixed feelings, or some religion-related adornment, can be of some comfort. Otherwise, this banning stuff might give immigrant children the impression of,
"Welcome to America. For purposes of strengthening our most glorious American order, please throw away all that ethnic crap you own."
Again, they're just kids.
I attended a particular high school that National Geographic rated as the most diverse school in America. Lots of immigrants. Lots of children of families working at those embassies in D.C. You know that scene in "Mean Girls" where Janice shows Kady what each of the tables in the cafeteria represent? Well, my school's cafeteria was a mini-geography lesson. Virtually no integration. But we got to do whatever the hell we wanted. Classrooms however, were different. Palestinians sitting next to Israelis sitting next to Syrians sitting next to Russians, etc. It's amazing how fast you learn geopolitics that way. It was your own d___ personal reponsibility if you wanted to pay attention in your ESL (English as a Second Language) class.
Racism? What Racism? There was so much racism, religious discrimination, ethnic discrimation at my school that soon it became a joke. The sting and the social impact were gone. Demeaning your fellow classmate with a racial slur was no more hurtful than calling him fat or bucktoothed. Or making fun of his mama.
Where we disagree, I feel, is that I don't much trust schools to shape the minds of the young to to be "ideal" Americans. I say, social Darwinism!
OTT! I won't cry for this idiot if someone kicks his butt.
For what it's worth:
You are not talking about the Stars and Bars. You are talking about the CSA battle flag of many of the CSA armies. THIS is the "Stars and Bars," the first Confederate national flag. Few people recognize it, and it doesn't carry the stigma of the battle flag - strange, huh?
LeadFistExpress
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There were 5 border states...
AppleSanity,
There were actually 5 border states that continued with slavery during the Civil War. They were Kentucky, Maryland, Missouri, Delaware and West Virginia (which was actually part of Virginia and succeeded from it when Virginia succeeded from the Union). Some of the states did away with slavery on their own by prohibiting it in their state constitutions, and slavery as a whole was eliminated with the passage of the 13th amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
The Emancipation Proclamation did not free any slaves in the slave holding states that did not succeed to the Confederacy. It only freed slaves in the states that succeeded that did not return to the Union by the deadline.
As has been stated in this thread, students cannot exercise the same rights on school property that they can off of school property. The school needs to be able to maintain an environment that is conducive to learning and not hostile to any one or group of students. To that end, they can censure some speech and prohibit some actions.
I also agree that political correctness can be taken too far. I despise the message that the KKK, the Neo-Nazis (even though I am a German), and other hate groups broadcast, but I will defend their right to spout their nonsense as a patriot and believer that no truly free society fears truly free speech. They are private citizens and can spout as much BS as they see fit. Hell, even the government must give them a permit to have a parade if they request it, but there is a caveat. If it is determined that the parade will incite violent behavior, then they can deny the request to protect the public safety. A hate group can hold a peaceful gathering and say what they want, but when they incite violence, they must suffer the consequences as any of us would.
That being said, do I believe these students were flying the Confederate Flag as a symbol of historic pride, absolutely not. I believe they did so as a means of intimidation, or some other nefarious purpose. Especially if the school has dealt with this in the past. I believe they thought the school would not do anything to them since they were graduating, but they were wrong. I am certain, at least in my mind, that they knew exactly what they were doing and they must suffer the consequences for their actions. At the same time, I applaud their methods, though not their purpose. Civil disobedience is the bedrock of this nation and has long ago subsided when it should still be mainstream. I feel that everyone should stand up for what they believe in, as long as they understand there may be consequences and they are willing to suffer them.
AppleSanity,
There were actually 5 border states that continued with slavery during the Civil War. They were Kentucky, Maryland, Missouri, Delaware and West Virginia (which was actually part of Virginia and succeeded from it when Virginia succeeded from the Union). Some of the states did away with slavery on their own by prohibiting it in their state constitutions, and slavery as a whole was eliminated with the passage of the 13th amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
The Emancipation Proclamation did not free any slaves in the slave holding states that did not succeed to the Confederacy. It only freed slaves in the states that succeeded that did not return to the Union by the deadline.
As has been stated in this thread, students cannot exercise the same rights on school property that they can off of school property. The school needs to be able to maintain an environment that is conducive to learning and not hostile to any one or group of students. To that end, they can censure some speech and prohibit some actions.
I also agree that political correctness can be taken too far. I despise the message that the KKK, the Neo-Nazis (even though I am a German), and other hate groups broadcast, but I will defend their right to spout their nonsense as a patriot and believer that no truly free society fears truly free speech. They are private citizens and can spout as much BS as they see fit. Hell, even the government must give them a permit to have a parade if they request it, but there is a caveat. If it is determined that the parade will incite violent behavior, then they can deny the request to protect the public safety. A hate group can hold a peaceful gathering and say what they want, but when they incite violence, they must suffer the consequences as any of us would.
That being said, do I believe these students were flying the Confederate Flag as a symbol of historic pride, absolutely not. I believe they did so as a means of intimidation, or some other nefarious purpose. Especially if the school has dealt with this in the past. I believe they thought the school would not do anything to them since they were graduating, but they were wrong. I am certain, at least in my mind, that they knew exactly what they were doing and they must suffer the consequences for their actions. At the same time, I applaud their methods, though not their purpose. Civil disobedience is the bedrock of this nation and has long ago subsided when it should still be mainstream. I feel that everyone should stand up for what they believe in, as long as they understand there may be consequences and they are willing to suffer them.
Slavery ended all over the modern world at about the same time with little bloodshed except in the U.S.
Yet, Lincoln is remembered as a great president for managing to get as many as 700,000 people killed over it?
Which leads me to wonder, how are people so stupid as to still maintain that the civil war was over slavery.
I guess they didn't have weapons of mass destruction.
Still, if the flag is displayed to knowingly annoy somebody, leave it home.
Yet, Lincoln is remembered as a great president for managing to get as many as 700,000 people killed over it?
Which leads me to wonder, how are people so stupid as to still maintain that the civil war was over slavery.
I guess they didn't have weapons of mass destruction.
Still, if the flag is displayed to knowingly annoy somebody, leave it home.
Lawyer Daggit
New member
I think slavery would have died of natural causes as it did in most of the Western world without the Civil War- it would have just taken probably another 20-30 years. Remember improvements in agricultural techniques were mechanising agriculture throughout the 18th century.
That was was about power, rights, and about two societies- one industrial and one agricultural both wanting different things from the Fed Government.
The flag has been abused as a symbol.
I can understand the N word, nooses and the stars and bars upsetting some folks though, particularly if they have black ancestry.
That was was about power, rights, and about two societies- one industrial and one agricultural both wanting different things from the Fed Government.
The flag has been abused as a symbol.
I can understand the N word, nooses and the stars and bars upsetting some folks though, particularly if they have black ancestry.
toybox99615
New member
how interesting
to consider the number of previous post over how schools need to hold students responsible for their actions. yada yada yada.
Now comes a school holding students responsible and it yada yada yada the school fault for making such rules and holding students in compliance.
to consider the number of previous post over how schools need to hold students responsible for their actions. yada yada yada.
Now comes a school holding students responsible and it yada yada yada the school fault for making such rules and holding students in compliance.
doesn't say they didn't graduate...just that they could not attend the
festivities.... they got suspended for the last three days of school. Damn, I wish I had know about this when I was in highschool... what a way to get our early!
graduation was about the most boring thing you could attend....
festivities.... they got suspended for the last three days of school. Damn, I wish I had know about this when I was in highschool... what a way to get our early!
graduation was about the most boring thing you could attend....
BoringAccountant
New member
Apples and oranges in my book, sorry, weak argument.
The fact that the school disciplined the kids because there was a policy already in place is not the issue. The fact that there is a policy to begin with is the debate. And, at least I am not, I am not blaming the school or the administrator for his policy or his actions but rather inquiring as to why there has to be a problem with it to begin with. Objects and the possession of certain objects with the absense of actual actions or overt bigotry, racial epitapths, etc. is not wrong and should not be perceived as wrong on the face of it, that is where this is an issue.
Same goes for hate crime legislation...action and result are the same, regardless of what the accused was thinking when he/she performed it.
For Halloween when I was in Kindergarten in 1963, my mother dressed me up as "Johnny Reb" for the Halloween party there. I carried a Confederate Flag, plastic pistol in a holster and pulled a little cannon that fired plastic cannon balls. I won best costume at the school which was located in suburban Philadelphia a Yankee stronghold! NOBODY WAS OFFENDED. Boy things have changed
I agree with you often. But, I don't know what planet one would have to be on to not know that this is offensive to a lot of blacks.
You can't tell me that the kids brandishing it didn't know that and were trying to make some kind of statement. Race relations are tough enough without purposely stirring the pot.
And , the teachers at the school are the ones trying to keep it under control. Give them a break.
BoringAccountant
New member
Completely AGREED. I do not dispute that it is offensive to blacks, other minorities and white people. However, my point is, there are a ton of things that are 'offensive' to everyone, regardless of who you are or what background you come from. Where does it become a government (school district, state, and/or federal level) to dictate what items (because again we are talking about items, not actions) are offensive and therefore can be banned?
Can objects be used to insinuate violence, cause stress, cause a fear, or be used to intimidate others...of course they can. But how does punishing (i.e. banning) the object used help the situation?
Let's not try to take this into conspiracy land or too far out there, but could you, in the future, see the government trying to ban other things because of what they have been used as...guns come to mind. Granted, completely different because we dont have the right to keep and bear a confederate flag, but same basic principle I think, you are banning an object because of how some use it improperly.
Maybe so, maybe not, I would tend to lean towards agreeing with you and high school kids just trying to be bad asses with it. However, given the policy, even the kid who legitimately believes in the South, his heritage, his family members who were involved, etc. he would have been punished the same way. Sure its "fair" to punish all alike, but he is not doing it to stir a pot, he would be doing it to show what he takes pride in, completely different intentions. Bottom line, kids were wrong, knowing there was a policy in place.
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