Stopping Power

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Viper:

Man you are right on. The agencies that switched from the 9mm to something else are idiots-----plan and simple. We know more because we post here on tfl, go to gun shows, read gun rags and spend lots of time in gun shops.

New Orelans Police - Idiots
FBI - Hostage Rescue Team - Idiots
Little Rock PD - Idiots
TX DPS - Idiots
Collin Cty. TX SD - Idiots
FBI - Idiots
Penn. State Police - Idiots
ARK. State Police - Idiots
GA State Police - Idiots
NM State Police - Idiots
LA State Police - Idiots
Shreveport, LA PD - Idiots
Miami PD - Idiots
OK HP - Idiots
Oh yeah-----US Border Patrol - Idiots
and many more out there who either got away from the 9mm or never went to it in the first place.

Viper the part about, the fact that many LEO's don't use the 9mm because they can't afford the ammo was brilliant logic as well. Heck, I bet the .357Sig is just as cheap as any 9mm round out there isn't it?

What I want to know is when we are going to straighten all of these stupid people out--------including myself since I only own handguns chambered for either .357 Magnum or .45ACP.


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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."

[This message has been edited by Will Beararms (edited June 09, 2000).]
 
Battler, I like your logic in planning for the worst case scenario.
But, my thing is, I am not convinced that the 11.5mm hardball bullet is really any more impressive than a 9mm hardball. And, there is no proof that it is. It does not penetrate deeper...in fact the 9mm penetrates deeper than the .45 in all tests. Marshal and Sanow don't rate either hardball higher than the other. They both seem to suck equaly bad ;) And, I do not think I could tell the difference if I were shot with both in the back (to quote someone else).

And, a 9mm has a much higher chance of expanding, especially from a short barrel where the 9mm is more within it's expansion threshold velocity. An expanded 9mm is much more effective than a hardball .45, and that is a likely scenario, especially from compact guns.
Just some thoughts on your post, and of course no one here has the final answer or this argument would be over. (Although it seems to me that the final argument really is that they all work about the same by all accounts shown)


Also, I would like to add that a lot of people state that they FEEL that "X" is more effective than "Y". I have seen this stated a few times here. They FEEL that the .40 is much more effective than the 9mm. So what? Just because you feel something is more effective does not mean it is (especially when the facts show that they are about the same in real performace). For instance the gentleman above that shot a dog with a 9mm and had to shoot it twice so he switched to a .45. Well, did he ever shoot anything with a .45? Or did he just FEEL that it worked better? The answer is, he never did a scientific test, he just assumed that the .45 would be the solution and it made him feel better.
I see a lot of people that go to a more powerful or larger cartridge because they FEEL better carrying it, but that does not prove anything. Although, it is important to be confident in your weapon, it seems that a lot of people carry these larger or more powerful cartridges simply because it makes them FEEL better. Not necessarily because they can PROVE it is more effective, but just becaise they FEEL that it is. On the other hand, there seems to be no PROOF that any of them work any better than the others.

If you FEEL better carrying a .45 or a .40 or a .357 Sig then go for it. But, there seems to be no evidence that it works better than a 9mm.

Maybe it is better to carry a round that you don't have grand delusions about, so you know it's limitations? Maybe some people here will be shocked when they actually use that super-mega-bullet and it does not work? Maybe it would be better to carry a 9mm and be realistic that they all don't work very well and you are going to have to depend on more than the wonder caliber to do the job?

Just some thoughts.

[This message has been edited by CassandraComplex (edited June 10, 2000).]
 
Thinkin out loud here.
Bad guy is in fear may be stopped with a lesser hit.

Bad guy who thinks he is invincable may not stop even after clinicly dead.

Bad guy who has written himself off and is makin his "last charge"...may well be invincable for all too long a time.

Over penetration is a consideration when bad and good guys in front of you.

Have seen results of quite a few calibers, on people. Have seen secondary shrapnel do damage to third party. Head shot blew piece of skull through eye of third party. Sad.

Cant plan for em all. So I carry fast AND heavy, cause cant get a 12ga conceilable pistol. If could plan for it, wouldn't go there.

Sam
 
I continue to read this -- and similar -- threads, including many posts from well-informed members. Highly experienced individuals certainly use the 9mm as their principal defensive round. I absolutely do not claim to be an expert, but the FBI's thoroughly documented disaster in Miami causes me to question the efficacy of the 9mm. Before I become the object of an instant "flame storm", let me add the FACT that -- without question -- accurate shots from a 9mm will quickly disable any attacker.

What I would like our TFL experts to comment on is: If the FBI Agents in the Miami shootout had been armed with the .40 S&W, with the .357 Sig, with the .45 ACP, or with the .357 magnum -- you pick the sidearm and the load -- would the outcome have likely differed significantly?

The intent of this question is simple: If our experts indicate that these rounds would not have made any significant difference, than the 9mm is essentially as effective as any of the other rounds. However, if the dominant opinion is one or more of these rounds would have caused a substantial difference in the Miami outcome, than I'll continue to have some skepticism re the 9mm.
 
I keep hearing about shot placement,penetration and power. I want all three. Shot placement is great if we live in a perfect world. I need more than that.

I have made myself get used to the recoil of the .357 Magnum and the .45ACP just as I made myself learn to shoot right-handed (I'm a Southpaw.).

When the rubber meets the road, you may not have a shot at the optimal area for effectiveness. In which case, either the .357 Magnum, .45ACP, .40 or .357 Sig will have a profound impact over the 9mm. If you are an LEO and you are willing to bet that all of your shots will be headshots or at close range in the frontal mass vicinity, by all means go with the 9mm.

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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
 
Just wondering!If the 9mm is so great why was the first prerequist for the pistol for seals and such was for a .45 cal.By the way H&K got the contract.9mm good enough for the run of the mill but .45 for the best of the best?

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beemerb
We have a criminal jury system which is superior to any in the world;
and its efficiency is only marred by the difficulty of finding twelve men
every day who don't know anything and can't read.
-Mark Twain
 
Hey RWK,

The Miami fight very likely would have been the same if any of those rounds you mention suffered the same kind of poor bullet performance that the 9mm Winchester Silvertip did.

Too many people are quick to jump on the 9mm's case, blaming it part and parcel for the Miami fiasco.

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!

There were a LOT of things that went wrong in Miami, and most of those things were in the human decision chain--tactics, training, execution, preparation, all of it contributed. Had any or all of those things been better considered, we likely never would have heard of the Miami shootout, nor would we have to endure the round-robin "9mm SUCKS---9mm's GREAT" debates that go on here and on other boards.

At the ultimate bottom of the problem heap, I do NOT view the 9mm in and of itself as a problem. What failed the 9mm in Miami was the BULLET, not the caliber itself.
 
Mike,

I believe that your opinion that the issue (and a VERY narrowly defined one) that the bullet failed and not the caliber is right on the money. When Jerry Dove fired that hit on Platt, it was as good a hit as could be expected to be achieved in any dynamic street fight. Somebody in a foregoing post indicated it was badly placed, which is incorrect. The round penetrated Platt's upper arm and then entered the chest, traversing his right lung and one of the significant arteries therein. It then lost steam and stopped short of the heart. Would Platt have stopped sooner if the bullet had penetrated his heart? We won't know til Judgement Day, but it's a good bet that he wouldn't have ambulated and attacked with such vigor and competence had the bullet penetrated BOTH lungs, his heart and the upper arm like an associate of mine had happen on a bad guy using the lowly .38 +P 158 LHP many years ago. THAT bad guy, who was trying to shoot my associate (LEO type) shuddered and fell within a couple of seconds and was dead within a couple of minutes. The bullet was under the skin on the opposite side at autopsy.

I won't get into a caliber or brand war, but we ALL need (whether LE or not) a bullet to reliably penetrate a distance that insures that intermediate barriers are defeated and vital organs and structures sufficiently damaged to cause incapacitation of our "problem child". That distance obviously varies with the situation, but you can almost always bet on clothes, arms, hands and/or shoulder structures being in the way on defensive shooting situations.

Folks, don't start believing that if you are in private citizen encounters (I won't say civilian because we are ALL civilians unless we're military) you won't have barriers to defeat. All of that said, DO NOT for a minute think that ANY pistol will reliably put really committed bad guys on the ground quickly. That's why we should think about tactics, avoidance, excellent shot placement and mobility before we worry about what is probably less than five percent of the overall solution to this very terrifying possibility.

Wayne Dobbs
Richardson, TX PD

[This message has been edited by Wayne Dobbs (edited June 10, 2000).]
 
Personally, I don't carry concealed. My only concern is having a caliber that will be sufficient should, perish the thought, the need arise to defend hearth and home.As such, I desire to have the most powerful caliber I can control at the ready with a proven bullet design.

Is the 9mm effective? Sure it is. There are too many instances where it has proven it's worth-------many of them unfortunate occurences such as the Long Island Railway Shooting or Columbine.

Are some of the other caliber choices effective? You bet.

I could not help but stoke the flames here a little when I read the premise upon which this thread was started. Namely that many PD's don't use the 9mm because they can't afford the top level ammo offerings--------that is ludricrous.

The fact of the matter is that one should choose the caliber that they feel most comfortable with. Anything 9mm or above is acceptable in a semi-auto and we cannot forget the .38 Special.

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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
 
Stopping power in a (normal) pistol (caliber) doesn't exist. You stop someone with a pistol by dumping enough blood to cause their system to shut down from blood loss (unless you do the central nervous system hit). Period & as simple & hard as that.

Any, repeat any, caliber that delivers enough "umph," (a misnomer in itself) on target, that will do the above, "stops" the discussion - given enough time. Pistols don't do that - reliably.

Handguns are handy. They are portable. they are readily availble when you need them most. They are not the end all answer to any of todays' societal ills.

Shot placement from ANY bullet counts more than any caliber or bullet design - from any pistol caliber.

If you want something with actual stopping power, you will use a rifle or a shotgun.

Avoiding the whole situation is the main key. Don't be there when the $#!+ hits the fan.

'Course, youre mileage may vary. ;)
 
RWK - In the Miami shootout, one bullet is blamed for the guys living too long and wreaking havok. As has been discussed, a 9mm 115gr Silvertip hit the bad guy in the arm, went through, through the ribs, through the right lung and aorta and stopped "one inch short of his heart". It killed him. It took time for him to bleed and die. He is an example of someone that will not stop from pain, but from incapacitation. It takes time for people to bleed to death. It does not take long for someone to wreak havok.
Anyway, people supposed that if the BG had been shot through the heart, he would have died faster. This is NOT by any means true. Did you know that %50 of people shot through the heart these days LIVE? There are many accounts of people shot through the heart and going on for a very long time. People do nt just fall over dead from a shot through the heart. I would bet that not one thing would have changed if that bullet had gone on through his heart. He still woul dhave had to bleed to death and that takes time. The BG getting hit in the aorta is about as bad as it gets. He bled out damn fast, but not fast enough.

Anyway, so under the assumption that more penetration would have carried the bullet through the heart and killed the BG faster, people blame the 9mm for failing to penetrate.
This could not be more WRONG. The 115gr Silver tip is designed to penetrate shallowly. Is has the same performance as a 125gr .357 Mag/Sig, the same performance as a 135gr .40, the same performance as a 165-185gr .45 Silvertips, respectivly. They ALL are low sectional density, and designed to expand violently and penetrate shallow.
The FBI chose this 115gr Silvertip because they did not WANT deep penetration. So, the bullet did exactly what it was designed to do.

Load selection is what matters. You can get a load for any occasion in all the calibers, speaking defensivly.
You want more penetration than a 115gr Silvertip? Do you have to go to the .40? No, you go to a difference 9mm load! Get a 125gr 9mm or a 135-147gr 9mm and your penetration problem is solved.

So, there is no way that the Miami incident can be blamed on the 9mm. The Miami incident can be blamed on a shallow penetrating, light bullet load. It does not matter if it is a 135gr .40, a 185gr .45, a 115gr 9mm etc, they all would have failed to reach the heart just the same, especially in the Silvertip variety.

Remember, the FBI had to find a scapegoat. They could not admit that tactics failed and got people killed. They could not admit that they picked a crappy load (the 115gr Silvertip). So, they blamed it on the caliber. And, funny thing is, now they are using a downloaded .40 caliber, that is not one bit different than a 9mm! ;) Fine use of out taxes, eh? After all that, they came back to the same thing they started with, but in a better bullet design for deeper penetration. they could have just moved to a good 125-135gr 9mm +P and get the same effect while wasting a lot less money.
 
Great chart Fud! And I wholeheartedly agree with George... Shot placement is the key! Amen.

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DAH BIG DAWG'S ON DUTY
 
Mike, Wayne, Willbeararms and Red Bull --
Many thnaks for your in-depth replies to my Miami "sub thread". You are the precise folks that make TFL such a pleasure and such a valued learning tool.

Roy
 
JMHO...

Stopping power, in order of personal preferance:

12 ga. shotgun in 00 buckshot.

Just about any rifle.

Just about any handgun.

If you can hit them where you want to, who really gives a $hit if it is a .22" hole or a 155mm hole?
 
Travis,

I actually prefer using No. 4 buckshot in my shotgun.

Why?

You get 27 pellets (albeit smaller) but those 27 pellets give you roughly 1.5 times more projectile weight than a standard load of 00 buck, and over double the total payload energy.

Of course, you can really narrow the field by trying to find some of the S&B 00 buck loads that have 12 pellets instead of 9.

I will warn you, though. The kick is pretty impressive! :)
 
WillBearArms: " you may not have a shot at the optimal area for effectiveness. In which case, either the .357 Magnum, .45ACP, .40 or .357 Sig will have a profound impact over the 9mm"


I would have to respectfully disagree. A bad hit is a bad hit. A good hit is a good hit.
If you think that (defensive pistol) caliber choice will make up for a bad hit, then you are sorely mistaken.

Respectfully,
Cass
 
Let me back up and re-phrase this. In the event of a hit in a less than perfect region, I prefer to have as much caliber as possible available. It certainly won't make up for poor marksmanship but it won't hurt. I guess from my standpoint, I want to plan for what is not supposed to happen and hope for the best.

I base this from my hunting experineces. Practice, practice and more practice only to freeze or be caught off guard when the moment of truth surfaces.

Hey, the 9mm is effective and I certainly don't want to be shot by one or any handgun for that matter. If I have access to a larger bullet that I can control, I want it.

BTW, your kindness is appreciated but feel free to bust my chops anytime. What does'nt kill you, makes you stonger. Frederick Nietze (Spelling?), the originator of that phrase was a perverted idiot who died of syphllis but even a blind hog gets an acorn every once in a while FWIW.

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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
 
Cass, so very rare but....

What about the BG, left handed, doin the gangsta threat bit. Comin at you sideways with gun in left hand and right hand on his left wrist. A good stout .357 has a good chance of goin through arm bone, ribs, expanded to over .50cal, and takin out heart or spine. Even if it goes through it will have expended more energy in the perp than the 9X19 has total.

BG wearin a Navy pea coat makes it worse.

I agree with Lawdog, first choice 12ga.

Rspctly submitted, Sam
 
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