Stopping Power

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FUD-

I am not suprised you find it hard to believe that someone could survive 10-15 minutes after being hit directly in the heart. I did at first too. I work in one of the busiest trauma centers in the country. We open alot of chests. This is not an isolated occurance. To be fair I do not know how long they were able to fight but not infrequently they are "talkies" when the medics get there.

Mr. Mcdermot- I am well versed in mathematics. Take a look at the diameters of expanded 9mm and .45- the difference is about 5%.

And the debate rages on.

regards,

Olazul
 
Dear SKS,

Perhaps my statement that "no one ever fires only once" was an exaggeration. It indeed does happen. However, it is not the norm.

The only reason I brought up the point about one shot stops is that everyone seems to view this as important. I don't, but I felt it necessary to address.

I have not been in lots of shootouts. I have only been involved in two real bad situations. I didn't notice how loud it was at the time of the second incident, but I sure noticed how loud it was in the first one when I was in an enclosed space, especially afterward when my ears were ringing after I went deaf for a few minutes. Recoil was not a factor in either case--because I was using 9mm. If I had been using a .45, my ears probably would have been bleeding.

It is a fact that no police agency in the Miami area was ever cleared to carry Magsafe loads on a department-wide level. This was for both liability and cost reasons. I know this from guys on Metro-Dade and Miami PD, whom I talk to all the time. It is a fact that Miami is ONE of the most dangerous cities in the US with regards violent crime. You can look it up. Perhaps Miami isn't as voilent as L.A., but it's (in all likelihood) worse than where you live. Perhaps you do need to carry a gun where you live--I don't know. But I KNOW we need them down here. This is gun country, pure and simple. The state of Florida is even shaped like a gun. I'm not kidding. Get your map out.

Now, am I a commando? No--not even close. I'm just a guy who lives in a tough place. I'm 6'0" and weigh 150 pounds soaking wet. I'm the most unassuming guy you would ever run across. You wouldn't even look twice at me on the street. I'm sure there are plenty of guys out there who could crush me like a bug. However, I AM wiry and very fast. My hand speed is exceptional and is what has saved my ass on several occasions. My foot speed has done the rest, allowing me to run the other way. I call it the "Carl Lewis defense". I'm actually glad I'm thin. Down here, if you're a big muscular guy, you just make for a bigger target, as there is more of you to hit.

Do I know it all? No. I'm learning all the time. However, I am a voracious reader. I read more than most people and retain what I do. I've also owned more guns than most, including ones with big holes (.45's), and had an FFL for 10 years. Sorry you took offence at the "armchair commando" comment. Perhaps it was out of line. But if someone out there is knocking the nine, they open themselves up to it.

One other thing. Placement is not always everything. In EVERY single documented 9mm Magsafe shooting, even when the attacker was only shot once(yes, it apparently happens) in the arm or leg--or even just the hand, the fight has ended IMMEDIATELY. This is because of how devastating these rounds are. If Joe Zambone were still with us(he died tragically in a motorcycle accident while out of the country) he would verify my statement about his wonderful Magsafes in 9mm. He will be missed, by the way, as he saved a lot of good people's lives with his marvelous bullets.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sks: ... Do you think that Miami is the most dangerous city in the US ... [/quote]Having recently moved down to southern Florida, I can tell you that certain parts of Miami are pretty BAD. However, they don't compare to the Bronx, certain parts of Newark, NJ and (I'm sure) other parts of the country (LA,Chicago, etc.) which might be equally as bad.

Viper:

You seem to be an expert on MagSafe. I see a few different types listed for each caliber ( (9mm luger mini-glock at 50gr, 9mm luger defender at 60gr, 9mm +P stealth at 64gr, etc.), (.40S&W swat at 46gr, .40S&W defender at 84gr, .40S&W mini-glock at 72gr), etc.); what is the difference and which ones would you recommend? Based on your recommendation, I'm tninking about giving them a try. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stephen A. Camp: Greetings all. I apologize for the multiple posts. On my computer, I saw no indication that it had "gone". Best.[/quote]Stephen, you can hit the "edit" button and blank out the multiple posts (the way I did when I did a triple reply by accident) ;)

[This message has been edited by FUD (edited June 09, 2000).]
 
Hey FUD,

In terms of Magsafe ammo, I carry the 52 gr Agent load exclusively, and all of these were purchased while Joe Zambone was still in charge of things. He ended up selling the company, and I have no idea if the new bullets are identical in manufacture or quality(or performance). I carry the Agent load because of certain properties it posesses which I will not mention in this forum. The 64 gr Stealth load and 102 grainer(which I used to use in my P7M13 because it would reliably cycle it) are also excellent and more than enough bullet. But, make no mistake, the Agent load is mother$&%*$ of the bunch because of its "special" capabilities. Joe used to carry the 9mm Stealth load in his gun(I think he used to carry a Glock 19, but I'm not positive). With Magsafe(and I can only speak for the bullets made while Joe was still in charge, because I don't know enough about the new owners), it really doesn't matter too much where you hit them. Read that again--it really doesn't matter. While Joe was making the bullets, there was not one case of someone taking a 9mm Magsafe round and keeping going or firing. Not one. It didn't matter if it was only an extremity shot. It used to cost me roughly $20 for a six round pack. Thats about $3.50 per perp.
 
viper, thanks for the reply. However, I can't seem to find any mention of the MagSafe 52 gr Agent ammo that you made reference to. Additionally, I've always stayed away from MagSage & Glaser because of the following (it's also the reason why I stopped using Triton & Cor-Bon) ... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><A HREF="http://www.greent.com/40Page/general/armchair.htm" TARGET=_blank>Armchair Commando Ammo
by Shawn Dodson
Director of the Firearms Tactical Institute</A>

I regard four brands of ammo as armchair commando ammo. They are:
1) CorBon
2) Triton
3) MagSafe
4) Glaser

Why? Because these brands are the preferred brands of those who don't know any better, and whose knowledge of wound ballistics doesn't go beyond what they've read in gun magazines. These companies want you to believe that energy transfer is an incapacitation mechanism, regardless of the fact that there's no evidence whatsoever to support their claims. In my experience, the more complex the description of the wounding/incapacitation mechanisms offered by the manufacturer, the more smoke and mirrors are involved to hype a gimmick bullet concept. I'm wary of manufacturers who want me to focus my attention on velocity, temporary cavities, bullet expansion/fragmentation, and energy transfer and not tell me a thing about penetration performance. Experience tells me that manufacturers who do this are peddling a gimmick. And thats what's these four manufacturers are hawking, gimmick bullets that appeal to the gullible.

With few exceptions, these bullets don't provide a penetration safety margin. Ordnance gelatin tests simply show the average performance you can expect of a bullet in any given shooting situation. Depending on what tissues the bullet encounters, the bullet might penetrate more deeply or less deeply than it's observed performance in standard ordnance gelatin. Depending on the situation, it's not uncommon for a deep penetrating bullet (Federal .45 ACP 230gr HydraShok, for example) to suffer a 30 percent loss of penetration potential in the human body. These companies (CorBon, Triton, MagSafe, Glaser) want you to believe that a penetration performance of 8-11 inches (5 inches in the case of Glaser) in ordnance gelatin is ideal for personal defense. These manufacturers' bullets are incapable of losing 30 percent of their penetration performance and still retain the capability to reliably inflict a dynamic fight stopping wound, especially if the person who's shot isn't "energy transfer sensitive" (e.g., chemically intoxicated, psychotic, emotionally disturbed or acting with a single-minded determination to cause as much harm as possible before being stopped). In some instances, if the bullet hits an arm that's blocking the bullet's path, the bullet will be incapable of blasting through ribs to enter the chest cavity. I wouldn't use any of this "performance ammunition" to hunt dangerous wild animals, and I certainly wouldn't bet my life on these brands to stop dangerous human attackers."[/quote]Anyone care to comment on this?

NOTE TO Moderator : If you edit out a few of the triple posts, it'll reduce the size of this trend and keep it from getting closed before it's time. ;)

[This message has been edited by FUD (edited June 09, 2000).]
 
They might not offer the Agent load any more because of the "special" properties I mentioned. Joe stopped selling the round to individuals a while back. I had an FFL and ordered in bulk, so I got a little different treatment. I don't know who Shawn Dodson is, but he is not right. He just didn't do his homework.

We didn't test the agent load on gelatin. We tested it on one of those large industrial sized steel fire extinguishers--the metallic colored ones, not the red ones. I think they are 1/4 inch steel. Standard and +p hollow points either bounced off or penetrated the front, but didn't come out the back. The Magsafe penetrated both sides and blew a baseball sized hole out the back as it exited. We just had to sit there in amazement. Then we tried it again. Same result. We fired it at a front windshield--zipped right through. We fired it through a car door with the window rolled up. Went through it like it was paper. Hopefully, Shawn will never have to face a proficient and efficient shooter bent on his destruction with just one Magsafe in his gun. One perp with one Magsafe at his disposal is what I would consider an esp(extremely serious problem).

The Glazer has always had penetration problems. That's why I don't carry it, and you didn't hear me recommending it. The Magsafe is a different animal entirely. You also didn't hear me recommending Triton. I don't have any experience with this load. Shawn is wrong about the 115gr Corbon. It has a great track record and is highly respected by most authorities. It hits like a .357 magnum.
 
Hey Steve,

I don't think it was your fault. LOTS of double and triple posts by quite a few people, all around the same time. It looks like it was a server burp.

I was going to give you hot blue hell last night, but then I realized that it wasn't just you. ;)
 
Regarding Shawn Dodson's comments:

Complaining that the Glaser and Magsafe lack penetration is like complaining that your Chevy Sprint can't beat your neighbor's Ferrari at the track. The Sprint's selling point isn't speed and the Ferrari's isn't fuel economy. The rounds are purposely designed to limit penetration and are specialty rounds designed for those cases where overpenetration is a major concern.

If you want to make the case that they are often used outside of the specialty niches for which they were designed or to make the case that the manufacturers are promoting it as something it isn't (a general-purpose self-defense round), then that's one thing. To blast a round as totally inadequate when the round is purposely designed for limited applications, is a bit unfair to my mind.

As for Corbon and Triton, I would probably defer to Mr. Dodson's experience on the matter as I am sure it outweighs mine. I do however have a few observations and a point to make regarding what he said.

Observation: Firearms Tactical Institute is an interesting e-zine; but they are 100% on the side of Martin Fackler in his holy war against Marshall and Sanow. I question whether this doesn't color Mr. Dodson's response?

Questions:

Why do you discount Triton and Corbon completely? I know that Corbon makes heavier penetration loads in 124gr and 147gr. If the mantra of deeper penetration is true, please explain why you discounted an entire line of ammo rather than specific offerings within that line?

I am not familiar with the Triton product; but I believe another poster mentioned a 124gr offering and I am sure that they also produce at least some variety of ammo. Why do you discount the whole brand rather than specific types of ammo within the brand?
 
Two quick shots to the COM. (Assuming you do practice so your first two follow the shot placement rule)

It the purp keeps a coming, empty the rest higher and higher.

In other words, shoot 'til they STOP.

The above should equalize the calibers.

[This message has been edited by Ragin Cajun (edited June 09, 2000).]
 
Kelly, I stopped using Cor-Bon because I've read (both in print and on the internet) from several different sources that Cor-Bon has been having some quality control issues not to mention the fact that some ex-employees purposely messed up cases & cases of ammo -- ammo which might be sitting in your gun right now (if you use Cor-Bon) and which might not fire when you need it the most.

With regard to Triton, I haven't heard that much about it except for that one post that I made reference to earlier in this trend and decided to switch to Remington Golden Saber -- which is as good, or better, than the Triton stuff.
 
We'll-you certainly can't damage an organ if you can't reach it. The superficial wound may look nasty, and if it disrupts the bowels you may die 3-7 days later from the infection.

Then again if you hit someone from the ideal angle 5 inches will reach the heart.

regards,

Olazul
 
Just as a point of interest, Tritons Quick Shok was the only frangible round to meet the criteria of the INS. When they tested the Frangibles , it was done just like when they tested the regular hollowpoints. The criteria was the same for both types of bullets.
 
Can't believe I missed this one for a whole day!

1. The specialty units that were mentioned (GSG-9, SAS, the Israelis) use 9mm primarily because it is what they have always used! The French GIGN use the .357 Magnum! So there :). Additionally, the SAS take a lot of headshots, can't comment on the others, but 9mm is a NATO round (the primary reason we use it in the Armed Forces), so it is abundant in everyone's inventory.

Having corresponded with Shawn Dodson, my impression is that he is only interested in the truth and exposing what is nothing more than a fraud. It just so happens that M/S are the primary perpetrators of said fraud.

The debate over this round or that is irrelevant to most of the military because we are regulated by law as to what we can carry and so are most of the more genteel Europeans. Europeans (police and civilian) carry ball because hollowpoint is illegal, though I do not know about their Special Ops personnel.

The IWBA however, studies the effects of rounds on bodies, and uses gelatin to determine, which round, if precisely placed will permanently disrupt the maximum amount of tissue. Contrary to popular slander, the IWBA DOES study shooting reports, but analyzes them medically to determine why the suspect was incapacitated, what the mechanism of wounding was, and what caused death. Unfortunately, M/S are not qualified to do this.

If popular firearms instructor **** teaches LT Snuffy from Somewhere, TX and explains why the 115 gr. Cor-bon reigns supreme and why all of their 147 gr. Hydrashocks are failing and LT Snuffy says, "Yeah, that makes sense..." well, that doesn't mean the 115 gr. Cor-bon has done or will do any better. The administrators get their information from the same places you do!

Viper,

If there is a physiological wounding mechanism for the M/S rounds, it should work regardless of what drug the suspect is on!!!!!

For example if you shoot a suspect in the head regardles of him being mad, depressed, "dusted", or any other form of high, he will drop, whether he dies or not. Central Nervous System damage/destruction is a reproducible mechanism of incapacitation.

Now if a suspect is shot in the thoracic cavity and drops, then the question begs to be asked, why? Of course the other question is why ask why, why not be happy that he drops. The answer is so that the results are later able to be reproduced.

No one denies the psychological factor in temporary incapacitation. Even Massad Ayoob (a big M/S fan) relates the story of a person who heard a gunshot and fell down in death throes, even though he hadn't been shot. Hmm.

At a recent class on Death Investigations, our instructor, a graduate of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology stated that people have died from minor, survivable wounds, because they think they will. That was not the first time that I have heard that either, and I am sure most of you have heard the same or similar things. If not, ask any doctor.

If you cannot present a medical explanation for OSS, cannot eliminate psychological factors, cannot independently verify the "research", and then find statistical improbabilities beyond human comprehension (how many decimal places can you imagine), how can you say that this round performs better than that one on the street?

On the other hand, if a round penetrates deep enough to perforate major blood vessels and some organs (such as the liver and heart), and the BG loses enough blood, he will go into shock REGARDLESS of whether he is on drugs or not!!!!! Once he goes into hemorraghic (also known as hypovolemic) shock, he will drop. If he does not get medical attention quickly, he will die.

The IWBA does not recommend specific rounds, brands, or manufacturers. The IWBA recommends principles with which you the consumer make an informed decision based on science. On the other hand, M/S are always recommending this or that manufacturer or wonder round. Hmmm.

As always, put 'em where it counts!

Chuck
 
My take on caliber/round/stopping power. In hoping the 9mm expands, you are expecting the best, in hedging on the highest caliber (e.g. 45) you're planning for the worst.

All hollowpoints can fail. A cop told me of a black talon (I think) coming from a full-length 9mm hitting the heart after going through light silk. He claimed the bullet was in its original shape, to the point where it could have been reloaded. The person struck died; but after saying something, and walking some distance.

The tests show us that the smaller faster round has a higher chance of opening in a certain medium after going through denim. But what of other mediums, after (or WHILE) going through other cloths?

It seems that the 45 (particularly out of a short barrel), has more chance of performing "worst case" (not opening); but its worst case is better than the 9mm worst case (unexpanded/hardball vs. same). The 9's "worst case" is less likely; but can happen.


Just imho.


Battler.
 
One shot stop will only be important when then government say we can only have single shot rifles and pistols, till then it's moot.

------------------
The difference between an optimist and a pessimist is the pessimist has more information.
 
FUD: Well, that would be a valid reason to reconsider Corbon I think.

Rob96: I appreciate that Mr. Dodson may be very enthusiastically searching for the truth and I also have read both Fackler and M&S and understand the weaknesses in Marshall and Sanow's work.

I was asking whether Mr. Dodson hadn't let his dislike of M&S affect his judgement. Corbon makes deeper penetrating ammo that meets IWBA penetration specifications quite nicely. Mr. Dodson didn't say that Corbon 115gr was inadequate - he stated that Corbon was inadequate. He also didn't suggest any reliability problems other than shallow penetration.

He made the same claim regarding the Triton ammo (which I am unfamiliar with). If Triton also makes deeper penetration rounds then this question applies to them as well.

It is quite possible, given my limited knowledge of wound ballistics, that there is still a valid reason why Corbon and Triton are not adequate defensive loads in any loading; but I would like to know why specifically.
 
[ side note to viper (since he doesn't have his e-mail exposed): you got a good topic going here and it looks like it will be closed soon due to space limitations -- that's pretty good for somebody new to this forum since it took me a number of posts before one of my topics got closed down because of space. Good Job. ]
 
Just think what could be achieved if we could get Shawn Dodson, Marshall and Sanow and Fackler to work together totally unbiased. They are all using methods that work and methods that are questionable. If they would work together, we might actually get to see "Thors" hammer. We should be glad there people like them out there searching for what works best.
 
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