Stopping Power Bwaaaaahhhaaahaaaaa!

Greetings to all:

Below article is good to look at I think as we talk about the subject re: stopping power. If we talk stopping power we always compare the most popular caliber i.e. 9mm and .45 caliber in the fast and slow school of thoughts. :)

Stopping power, also called terminal ballistics, is how bullets kill or incapacitate people and animals. The context may be self-defense, military, or hunting. This article assumes the target is human, but it applies also to animals.

Most theories about stopping power rely on impressive-sounding yet meaningless terminology--such as "energy transfer" and "hydrostatic shock"--to hide the fact that they have minimal basis in reality. Such strange, elaborate theories have only formed around firearms. People do not often claim that a particular knife or club has an "80% chance of a one-hit stop," or "transfers 400 foot-pounds of energy to the target." Popular entertainment portrays guns; if you're shot, you fall over dead. People infer that guns must be mystical weapons, capable of doing things no other weapon can, and so may require an equally mystical system for explaining the effects.

Performance
The 9 mm Luger cartridge combines a flat trajectory with moderate recoil, and fair stopping power. Its main advantages lie in its small size and low use of resources for manufacturing. Its main disadvantages are its tendency to overpenetrate and poor permanent cavitation (hole size), when nonexpanding bullets are used.

Because it is inexpensive, easy to manufacture and effective enough for most uses, it has become the most used pistol cartridge in the world.
For police use, it is mainly used with higher speed overpressure (+P) expanding bullets to increase both permanent and temporary cavitation, and to reduce overpenetration.
Energy, generally and qualitatively speaking, is the property (or the quantity of the property) of changing the state of a system or doing work.

It should be noted that the impact to the target can be no greater than the impact of the recoil, due to the law of conservation of momentum. However, the smaller size of the bullet, compared to the gun-and-shooter system, allows significantly higher energy to be imparted to the bullet than to the shooter. This is what gives guns their lethal effect. See physics of firearms for a more detailed discussion.

What people do when shot
What a person does when shot depends on a very large number of factors. A person can be incapacitated by either the psychological or the physiological effects.

Psychological effects
Emotional shock, terror, and surprise can cause a person to faint dead away when shot. This is the likely reason for most "one-shot stops," and not any intrinsic quality of any one bullet.
The realization that one has been shot, or at least shot at, is also often enough to cause a person to give up or flee.
Pain is another psychological factor. Having holes put in your body hurts quite a bit, after all, and can quite possibly be enough to dissuade a person from doing anything but screaming.
If a person is sufficiently enraged, determined, drugged-up, or just plain mean, however, they can simply shrug off any psychological effects of being shot, so they should not be counted on to stop an attacker.

Physiological effects
The only way to physiologically stop a person is to damage or distrupt their central nervous system (CNS) to the point that they fall unconscious or die.
Bullets can achieve this directly or indirectly. If a bullet causes sufficient damage to the brain (particularly the cerebellum or brain stem) or cervical spinal cord, the CNS damage is direct and nearly instant. These targets are very small, well-protected, and mobile, however, making them difficult to hit even under optimal circumstances; it is not unheard of for a bullet to skim along the skull, just under the skin, or even be stopped outright in the case of very weak calibers. Similarly, a bullet which passes through the neck or upper chest might not have the velocity to break the spine and damage the spinal cord itself.

Indirectly, bullets can damage the CNS by way of bleeding. This is accomplished by putting a large enough hole through a vital enough blood vessel or blood-bearing organ. If blood-flow is completely cut off from the brain, a human still has enough oxygenated blood in their brain for 10 seconds of willful action. Considering that a person's higher brain functions will usually shut down in a life-or-death situation, this figure might actually be a bit low.
Major blood vessels include the superior aorta, inferior aorta, vena cava, brachial arteries, femoral arteries, carotid arteries, and jugular veins.
Major blood-bearing organs include the heart, kidneys, and liver.
Unless a bullet strikes and damages a CNS structure, there is absolutely no physiological reason for a person to be instantly incapacitated, and unless the bullet crushes a large enough hole in a major blood vessel or a major blood-bearing organ, there is no physiological reason for them to be incapacitated at all.
 
'You cannot miss fast enough to win a gunfight' is courtesy Bill Halverson of Gunsite.
It is usually used to emphasize that speed alone is not going to hit the target. When I took a class there, a coule of younger shooters where very fast on the draw and first shot. Their targets bore a strong resemblance to being hit with buckshot from about 50 yards, no matter what there actual range was (3 yards out to 15 yards).
By the time you are actually shooting at someone ( a really bad day) you need to score as many hits as quickly as you can to stop the threat. Thinking the bad guy might suddenly have a change of heart when you start firing is not something a reasonable person should count on.
If you are very well trained you can fire quick pairs, pausing for just a fraction to asses the impact. If lead is coming your way, no pausing till the lead stops.
The Gunsite 'school drills' are still a good benchmark. The closest range is 3 yards, 2 shots center of mass (a 'hammer') in 1.5 seconds from the holster. At this range the second shot is not actually aimed, but fired when you detect you have returned the gun to the target from recoil by physical memory. With practice the two holes should be within about 2 inches of each other on the target.
One of the most important things to remember is distance is your friend. As a profficient shooter use range to your advantage. You know you can hit the target. Back up and find out if the other guy can. Beats eating lead.
 
This thread has some good info in it. Good discussion. I would like to add that if in a gunfight you need every advantage you can get. All things being equal I'd still prefer a bigger hole than a smaller one. That extra diameter might be the difference between cutting the artery or missing it. I firmly believe that tactics, training, and marksmanship will take the fight but I still would prefer the bigger bullet if given the choice.
 
Fair enough

Take a look at the attatched diagram

Ignore how menacing the .45 cal looks....

Concentrate on the size

How much difference is there really?
 

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How much difference is there really?

How many times have you heard the doctor on the news say "One millimeter further to the left and his spinal cord would have been severed?" I hear it often enough to want the edge that that one additional millimeter gives me. Also, I've rarely seen bullets come out of a body that uniformly expanded. I like to carry fully jacketed ammo, or assume my hollowpoints are either not going to expand like they should, or expand BEFORE they hit the bad guy for various reasons.
 
Well John that certainly has its merits as well. And I guess in extreme cases it would be but in most cases its 5-8 rounds in a fat body gun. I don't think there is a right or wrong, just what each individual can live with.
 
OK heres another explanation about bullet size effectiveness:

What bullets do

A bullet will destroy or damage any tissues which it penetrates, leaving a hole behind. It will also usually cause tissue to be propelled radially outward, entirely analogous to a splash in water.

These three things, penetration, hole, and stretch, are the main effects of being struck by a bullet. How wide and how deep a hole the bullet makes will be referred to as permanent cavitation, and the extent to which the hole is stretched outwards by "splash" will be called temporary cavitation, since these terms are favored by the real experts in the terminal ballistics field.
The depth to which the bullet penetrates is based on the size, shape, velocity, weight, and deformation of a bullet. Narrower diameter, more hydrodynamic (like aerodynamic, but in water) shape, higher velocity, heavier weight, less deformation, or any combination thereof will increase the penetration.

The degree to which permanent and temporary cavitation occur depend on the size, shape, and velocity of the bullet. Wider diameter, blunter shape, higher velocity, or any combination thereof will increase both the width of the hole, and the distance which this hole is stretched.

This is because bullets actually crush tissue, not cut it. A bullet with a rounded or sharp pointed tip will crush only the tissue directly in front of a small portion of its diameter; tissue closer to the edge of the bullet will simply "flow" around it, and be pushed outwards. A blunter, flatter bullet uses more of its face to crush tissue, and also propels uncrushed tissue with a higher velocity, but loses velocity more quickly in the process.

The velocity of a round also determines how efficiently it crushes tissue. A rounded bullet at a very high velocity may make a wider permanent cavity than a flatnosed bullet at low velocity. In general, a more hydrodynamically shaped bullet gives tissues more space to move to the sides, and a lower velocity bullet gives the tissue more time.

How much velocity a bullet retains during penetration is very important. A bullet which starts at a high velocity but loses its velocity quickly during penetration will crush a relatively large diameter hole at first, but the permanent cavity will quickly narrow deeper in. A projectile which retains velocity better (usually a heavier weight one of the same caliber) might make a smaller hole than the faster, lighter bullet at first, but retains velocity better as it penetrates, crushing a larger diameter hole deeper.

None of these processes are static in any way. As a bullet penetrates, it inevitably loses velocity (and, in the case of expanding bullets, deforms). This means that the diameter of the temporary and permanent cavities will gradually get narrower as the bullet penetrates deeper. In the case of expanding bullets, such as hollowpoints, the wider diameter and blunter shape temporarily crush a wider hole and generate a larger temporary cavity, but the bullet loses velocity even faster, penetrating more shallowly.

Above statements seems favor the smaller and fast bullets to be particular the 9mm.

I am just presenting opinion of experts. Even I am a 1911 .45 fanatics but it looks like the 9mm is a good or if not equal caliber to the .45 caliber.
 
How many times have you heard the doctor on the news say "One millimeter further to the left and his spinal cord would have been severed?" ..... I've rarely seen bullets come out of a body that uniformly expanded


Never, and if I did hear it I would assume that the doctor was exagerating. If a bullet was one millimeter away from severing the spinal cord, then it would already of hit the spinal cord. You need a good solid hit to SEVER the spinal cord. Besides, the television loves sensationalistic bs. Besides, a bullet does not have to sever the spinal cord, only damage it to cause incapacitation. There are also many nerves coming from the spinal column to cause severe injury.

According to the statements above, you want a bullet that will expand reliably, lose all its energy in the person, not exit the body, yet still have enough energy to bust the bones covering the spinal cord. Isnt it a trade off a that level? Deeper penetration and higher velocity vs. losing energy and not exiting the body?
 
Here is the text that goes along with the picture

http://www.ammolab.myhomepage.com/page/page/1632847.htm

I could not agree more.

Size CAN matter...but not at the expense of accuracy and ability

A good comparison is a .357 snubby and a 9mm autoloader. Lots of "power" in that .357 revolver, but it is useless IF you cannot control it well enough to unload all 5 shots quickly and accurately...and if you fumble through a reload when more than 5 are required. I personally would rather have 10 rds of 9mm.

But neither answer is "right" for everyone in every situation

FD.....one milimeter :barf: ..( a stretch IMHO ...but I don't watch ER:D )
 
So maybe you are the best shot in the whole entire world with your weapon... but what if somebody attacks you from behind or kicks your leg out and breaks your knee. You hit your head and become a bit woozie and aren't seeing absolutly straight. You draw your weapon, but have a hard time seeing your sights exactly, or exactly where you need to hit your attacker with that one round that you can get off before he probably jumps on you and continues to beat you. Is your shot going to be perfect if your lieing down on your side, shooting with either strong or weak hand, having a hard time seeing your sights exactly? I dont think so. Being that you most likely wont get that perfect shot off, do you want to sink a 9mm into the guy or a .45?

Everybody says shot placement shot placement. If you assured me every situation would allow for a perfect acessment of the target, perfect time to draw my weapon, and the right amount of time to align my sights, then why dont i carry a .22? because i can probably shoot my SW model 41 the best! I'll just have amazing shot placement and hit the guy between the eyes!

It comes down to using the caliber that is as large as you can handle and carry efficiently. You could be the best shot in the world, but if something goes wrong and you can't get off that perfect shot, that extra few milimeters of expansion may be your ticket to tomorrow.
 
Actually, just hiting the spinal column (the bony portion) with a heavy enough blow will stop nerve functioning for a while. Think of the 'bumping your funny bone' type action. Nerves do not respond well to being banged, bumped, or bruised. Function may return after some period of time from seconds to minutes to weeks or even months.
Severing the spinal cord is permanent since so far the splicing techniques used on smaller nerve bundles will not fit in the body space available.
 
Being that you most likely wont get that perfect shot off, do you want to sink a 9mm into the guy or a .45?
Being that you most likely won't stop him with a single shot and that given your scenario you might not even hit him with the first shot, would you rather deal with .45 or 9mm recoil on your second shot?
It comes down to using the caliber that is as large as you can handle and carry efficiently.
Nope, it all comes down to HITTING your target COM as many times as you can manage in as small a time period as you can manage. If he can get off two shots while you're dragging the muzzle back down to recover from your first shot, you'll most likely lose. The guy who gets shot the most times almost always loses according to some research done on LEO shootings by a local constable. Carrying a gun that recoils significantly more than the other guy's gun can get you killed--especially if it also unnecessarily limits how many rounds you can carry.
Mannlicher said:
this is SO boring................
And yet you keep opening the thread! ;)
 
Hey john, do you carry a .22 caliber gun?

If he can get off two shots while you're dragging the muzzle back down to recover from your first shot, you'll most likely lose.

If not, your statement sure sounds like any gun will do! It has nice light recoil, and you can probably get a bunch of rounds off because of the significantly less recoil.
it all comes down to HITTING your target COM as many times as you can manage in as small a time period as you can manage

Also, if you read what i wrote, i specifically stated, that you would only have time to get that one crucial round off as the attacker was running towards you and just about to jump on you...maybe you didn't see that part. One round. That means NOPE, NO SECOND SHOT. That means NOPE, NEED TO WORRY ABOUT RECOIL.

It comes down to using the caliber that is as large as you can handle and carry efficiently.

Yeps to that! John, if you double tapped a 9mm and a 45 from 7 yards away? what would the difference be in inches between your first and second shot with the 45 and the 9? I'd say if you can't keep a quick double tap of 45 within a 5 inch circle at 7 yards then something is wrong. My strength vs. your strength will certainly effect the recoil of the 45. I may be able to control the recoil of a .45 better than you or you may be able to control it better than me. If i can shoot a 45 just as well as you can shoot a 9mm, why would i carry a 9?

Then again i did say in my original post that you would only have time for one shot to be fired...
 
If he can get off two shots while you're dragging the muzzle back down to recover from your first shot, you'll most likely lose.

Did i even say the guy had a gun? I beleive i said the guy was going to jump on you and start beating on you...
 
your statement sure sounds like any gun will do
Caliber matters only to the extent that you need something that will penetrate deeply enough to damage the vitals. I wouldn't recommend a rimfire for personal defense and the .25 is notorious for poor penetration. In some of the lighter "pocket" calibers, it's probably a good idea to carry FMJ so you don't limit your penetration depth until it's ineffective.
One round. That means NOPE, NO SECOND SHOT.
There's nothing you can carry that will reliably stop a person with a single shot. Not even with a good solid COM hit. If you want, I can dig up the quote from the medic who treated a couple of Iraqis hit with .50 BMG rounds. So, in a real sense, it doesn't matter what you shoot him with. Unless you get lucky and damage the upper central nervous system, you're not going to stop him no matter what you're shooting. And, if you do damage the upper central nervous system you're going to stop him--again regardless of what you're shooting. There was an article regarding a study by the FBI posted on this forum awhile back that made exactly that point. Where you hit makes a big difference. What you're shooting make very little difference. That's why shooting rapidly and accurately really stacks the odds in your favor--the more you shoot and hit, the better your chance of living.
If i can shoot a 45 just as well as you can shoot a 9mm, why would i carry a 9?
Because you would almost certainly be able to shoot a 9mm even better and faster, and, in all likelihood you'd be carrying more rounds as well. If you don't think shooting a 9mm is an advantage compared to shooting a .45ACP then ask yourself why the IPSC rules handicap 9mm and other "minor calibers"? The guys who set it up knew that the 9mm could be shot faster so they designed the rules so the guys using .45s would be able to compete.

Besides, you might not be up against someone like me--who can make good COM hits on a silhouette at 7 yards while shooting my 9mm pistol so that it sounds like an UZI (according to the guy in the shooting lane next to me ;) )--you might be up against some guy who can REALLY shoot! :D
 
How does it go again? Mindset, Tactics, Skill, then Equipment. Funny how equipment is at the bottom of the list, isn't it? :p

Because you would almost certainly be able to shoot a 9mm even better and faster,
This is pure speculation on the poster's part. I shot my Glock 30 and 21 (.45 ACP) much better than any of my 9mm Glocks (19, 26 and 34). I find the slower recoil impulse of the .45 ACP much more comfortable than the 9mm and allows me to shoot it all day. YMMV.

FWIW, I currently carry .40 S&W for CCW or duty. I switched primarily because that is what the Sheriff's Office issues (Glock 22).
 
Mr.Drebin

Just as a matter of reply to you . The area I was refering to was Flint,Michigan.I don't need to read a report or study just the newspaper.Other options are readily available on the streets.I do come the Detroit area and what you say about that area is true.Once again--no big point-just fact.
 
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