Stopping Power Bwaaaaahhhaaahaaaaa!

Sigh.......

What STOPS people is either a hit to the Central Nervous System or nice deep wide holes that leak blood.

Velocity is important only in terms of getting the right penetration AND expansion.
(Rifle rounds are in a whole different class and even a rifle round is not always fatal)

A well performing 9MM bullet will create a fine wound track and a hit to the right place will put a person down.

But whatever the caliber, several good hits are likely to be required

like this case;

---------------------------------------------------------
Responding to a call of shots fired, two PVPD officers approached the perp from his driveway. Seeing he was armed with a rifle, the officers drew their hand weapons. The perp shouldered his Ruger Mini 14 .223 rifle and began firing at them.

The officers returned fire with their duty issue Glock 21s stoked with Winchester +P .45 Rangers.
The two officers hit the perp three times as he fired wildly at them.
He missed the officers completely, retreated into his house and began firing out through the walls. In total, he let off about 30 rounds that we know of.

The PVPD officers retreated to cover positions and called in PVPD SWAT.
Officers from PVPD, Yavapai County SO and Arizona DPS also responded to assist in containment. (This afflicted local traffic for several hours)

Once the SWAT mobile command center was set up, SWAT approached the house and found the perp inside, standing, bleeding profusely from several soon to be fatal chest and abdominal wounds, and demanded his surrender. Perp adamantly refused, but ultimately collapsed from his wounds.
Perp was medevaced out, and prounounced dead
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Nice hot .45 caliber gold dots...and they worked...eventually
 
I do not see how the article relates to caliber?? So the women was shot a few times in non-critical locations, what does this mean? I once got hit by a vega, and got up and walked around, does this mean that getting hit by vegas is not dangerous?

There are also a few things in the article that really makes me wonder about the accuracy of it.
First, it is a hemothorax, not a homothorax.
Second, there is no way that she will be back to her normal routine the next day, that is unless her normal routine is laying around the house.
Third, as for her joking with everyone, that seems pretty unlikely. There will be a significant amount of blood lost, as well as a bit of pain involved. Three half inch holes in a person normally takes away their sense of humor, unless she was in shock.

Yes, caliber matters. A larger hole allows for more bleeding, the more bleeding you can induce on the enemy the better. Sorry, but when it comes to bullets, size truly does make a differance.
 
Caliber does matter, even if comparing equal bullet designs and shot placement. The problem is that even at their best, no matter their caliber, handguns are poor people stoppers despite some occasional superb results. We carry them because they are the best compromise of power, concealability, portability and control. If I anticipate the possibility of a gun battle I wrap my paws around a bigger gun (12 gauge sounds about right).
 
IMO, size must matter somewhat. It's just commonsense.
Think in terms of edged or pointed weapons: Which would you prefer to use? An ice pick, a stiletto, or a bowie knife--assuming these were the only three available to you?
The ice pick you could jab repeatedly very quickly, while the stiletto you could use about as easily (just about as much velocity?) as the ice pick but would do more damage and therefore be more effective. The bowie knife would be unwieldy and require more thrust (velocity?) but would do the most damage of all.
So why would it be any different for handgun rounds, since you're going for maximum damage to induce incapacitation?
 
If you want to miss fast enough to win, why bother aiming at anyone? Just shoot in the air enough times and you can scare them into stopping.
You want the attack to end quickly, and on your terms. Not when a threat 'decides' he has had enough.

You carry a weapon to allow you to project force without engagng in hand to hand combat. The weapon works a lot better if you hit the target, and continue hitting it until it can no longer threaten.
 
It's about shot placement and what the bullet does when it gets threre.
I like big, but I've used smaller and it worked just fine.

What I wonder is how many here expousing these theories have ever shot or killed another person with a handgun?

Me, I like Claymores, they work swell.

Jungle Work
 
MCCALL911

Try thinking about it this way...what difference would it make if you used an icepick that was .10" larger in Dia?

Not too much...don't test the theory please!

It would be more important (IMO) to either

1. Stab him somewhere vital

2. Stab him lots of times

Sound familiar...just substitute shoot for stab.

(The difference between bowie knofe and an icepick is several inches)

caegal

The point is that despite a shot to the chest, and a couple others, she did not just lay down and die...as some would suppose.

Neither did the gentleman in my second story despite 3 good hits with better performing ammo.

Both were shot with the largest (dia)commonly carried caliber....and kept on ticking.
 
>The point is that despite a shot to the chest, and a couple others, she did not just lay down and die...as some would suppose.


Ahhhh, I didnt know that there were people here that believed the ol' Hollywood myth of flying in the air five feet and being dead before they hit the ground. :)

Of course the flip side of it is that the majority of people who do get shot will also be in a lot of pain, and not likely to be talking normally, carrying on their everyday activities, nor making jokes. Adrenaline can sustain you through all sorts of injuries for a while, but when the adrenaline shock, and endorphins wears off there will be a lot pain.
 
So, shot placement does matter, if not - Frank please educate me as to your theories.
Click to expand...

I never said shot placement didn't matter, I said that it wasn't the only thing that mattered, as some are saying to the exclusion of things like shot capacity and caliber. I can almost assure you that if someone has a 2-shot pistol and tries to hold you up, then gets behind some cover or concealment when you pull your gun and start shooting, they're not going to stick their head up to shoot back at you while you're sending rounds into their cover or concealment. I would not try this type of fire with a 5-shot .38. Also, concealment for one gun is cover for another. I prefer to be able to consider a car door and seat as "concealment" rather than "cover" when the guy I'm trying to shoot is behind it.

Personally, I've rarely heard of an innocent person being killed by a round that went through the bad guy because someone chose to carry FMJ .44 or .45 or .40, or whatever kind of rounds. Everyone keeps talking about what bullet to use to prevent "over penetration". As far as I'm concerned, there really is no such thing, within reason, as long as you're not firing steel-cored bullets.
 
>Everyone keeps talking about what bullet to use to prevent "over penetration". As far as I'm concerned, there really is no such thing, within reason, as long as you're not firing steel-cored bullets.

It always cracks me up when someone is concerned about that. There will be some shots that miss, that might hit someone. In comparison, a bullet at reduced velocity after traveling through somone will be pretty harmless.

Also with the big emphesis on "one shot stops", a bullet that travels through the body and still has enough energy to snap the spinal cord could be desirable.

There are many factors involved in effectively shooting someone, velocity, placement, size, and state of bad guy. There is no one factor that really rises above the others in importance. Perhaps the most important is to quickly adapt to the unique situation that you are in, which is acheived through training and experiance.
 
Seems to me that this tale from Farnam's site has popped up elsewhere on the 'Net from time to time--or should I say "Snopes-d up"?

Or, it could be my Deja-heimer's Syndrome kicking up again...
 
PHP: 
You cannot miss fast enough to win a gunfight

Shouldn't it be 'You cannot miss fast enough to lose a gunfight'? Whatever, it's a good line brickeyee. Is it yours?

PHP: 
Uh, sorry dude, but you most certainly can miss fast enough to win a gun fight. It happens all the time. Gun fights are not necessarily won by hitting an opponent, but by making the opponent convinced he can't win such that he stops being a threat, retreats, and/or surrenders. Even shots that miss can do this by making the opponent realize the threat to him.

Don't you think you're splitting hairs here? Gunfights are usually won by being able to draw fast enough to the extent you can hit your opponent in a kill area by staying calm and using your head. If you're a good gunfighter, Double Naught Spy, and you miss me with your first shot, you ain't gonna get another one!

Been there, done that, and I don't do fast draw anymore.

I use 9mm in all my pistols. What's the big deal? If you win you get to put a large hole in my head. If I win I get to put a smaller hole in your head. The point is, whoever loses is just as dead.
 
Try thinking about it this way...what difference would it make if you used an icepick that was .10" larger in Dia?

Not too much...don't test the theory please!

It would be more important (IMO) to either

1. Stab him somewhere vital

2. Stab him lots of times

Sound familiar...just substitute shoot for stab.

(The difference between bowie knofe and an icepick is several inches)
Click to expand...

Good analogies!
No, I don't intend to test the icepick theory. Never can keep up with it anyway. :D
 
For my 357 I use Federal 158 grain Hydrashocks
For my 38 Special I use Winchester 130 grain SXT
For my 9mm I use Winchester 147 grain SXT or Federal 124 grain Hydrashocks
 
What STOPS people is either a hit to the Central Nervous System or nice deep wide holes that leak blood.
Click to expand...

That is a correct statement, if you modify it to say that what stops people includes those items. As written and if intended to be an all inclusive list, it is demonstrably false. People stop for a variety of reasons: psychological trauma from being shot, pain, fear, not wanting to hurt anymore, realization of what's going on, etc. There are cases of individuals stopping (and sometimes dying) from wounds that did not impact that CNS or blood volume.
 
One Example......

..a case can't be made.I live in an area where there are numerous drive by shootings and most kids are killed with .22 or.25 ammo.Most ,or alot ,are killed with one bullet.No point--just fact.
 
..a case can't be made.I live in an area where there are numerous drive by shootings and most kids are killed with .22 or.25 ammo.Most ,or alot ,are killed with one bullet.No point--just fact.
Click to expand...

What area would that be??? That may have been true around Detroit 30 years ago simply because there were so many .22's or .25's out there, but it's not true now. It's just as easy, or even easier to get a 9mm for the past 20 years anyway than a .22. Most shootings I've seen, and I've seen dozens and dozens, were 9mm, .38's and most drive-by's are some type of assault round. Go to any major ghetto city newspaper website and search "drive-by shooting" and see what kind of gun was used.
 
Hopefully the majority of folks will never use a firearm to protect ourselves...if we do, I think it is best to have what you feel comfortable with from a reliability, accuracy, and "I-will-have-it-with-me" standpoint. I personally like the .45 best for a handgun round...but I have 9mm's also. I think that good training from a reputable school like Thunderranch (never been, but have had LE training with one of the good instructors) would be quite helpful in our endeavor to defend ourselves and families...
 
Hi Buzz

Yes I should have said what can be counted on to stop people is CNC hits or wide deep holes that leak blood.

The rest is not something you can discern in advance or should plan on.

People that carry small caliber pistols, 5 round snubbies, etc need to understand that one bullet likely ain't gonna do it...it may take 5-6 or more well placed shots, movement to cover...running away

Notice I am not saying that those people are WRONG....just that they need to understand the situation.

Just like those people willing to carry larger calibers with good capacity and easily reloaded(autopistol) need to understand that caliber/capacity is not the whole story either.

It is a lot more fun to argue caliber/load/platform selection because there is no "right" answer :D
 
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