From John Farnam...for those inclined to argue calibers
http://www.defense-training.com/quips/03Feb05.html
http://www.defense-training.com/quips/03Feb05.html
Stopping Power Bwaaaaahhhaaahaaaaa!
- Thread starter OBIWAN
- Start date
There is no miracle round ,forget the 'one shot stop', forget the 'double tap' , shoot and continue to shoot until the BG is no longer a threat. The shots have to be good hits , do damage to the vital organs. Caliber does matter since a 45 will do more damage than a 32 with the same hit. Farnam is one of the best instructors ,that's why I took his course !!
FrankDrebin
Moderator
It's not ALL about ANYTHING....that's silly. If it were ALL about "shot placement" you wouldn't need anything other than a 2 shot .22 short. Good luck. Something as dynamic as a moving gunfight is about a lot more than just shot placement.
Double Naught Spy
New member
FrankDrebin did well to dispell one myth and it most certainly isn't all about shot placement. Let's try another...
Uh, sorry dude, but you most certainly can miss fast enough to win a gun fight. It happens all the time. Gun fights are not necessarily won by hitting an opponent, but by making the opponent convinced he can't win such that he stops being a threat, retreats, and/or surrenders. Even shots that miss can do this by making the opponent realize the threat to him.
Uh, sorry dude, but you most certainly can miss fast enough to win a gun fight. It happens all the time. Gun fights are not necessarily won by hitting an opponent, but by making the opponent convinced he can't win such that he stops being a threat, retreats, and/or surrenders. Even shots that miss can do this by making the opponent realize the threat to him.
Joint/Strike
New member
I doubt she would be laughing if the bullets would have been Hydra-Shocks instead of FMJ.
Quote: ALL PISTOL ROUNDS ARE PUNY
How many of you can throw a baseball at 55 mph? This makes IPSIC's major power factor. Most little leagers can do a lot better.
Yeah, I know a .45 has a lot less frontal area, but then a 9mm has even less.
Any way you figure it a common self-defense pistol is a poor choice for "stopping " power. There was an officer in NYC who hit a robber in the chest with all nine 00 buck and got shot twice in his vest before he cranked another into the perp.
I like the shop clerk in Kalifornia who shot a robber 18 times with a S&W 686. When the asked why he shot him 18 times he said " I ran out of speed loaders"
Shot well, and often. Goldy
How many of you can throw a baseball at 55 mph? This makes IPSIC's major power factor. Most little leagers can do a lot better.
Yeah, I know a .45 has a lot less frontal area, but then a 9mm has even less.
Any way you figure it a common self-defense pistol is a poor choice for "stopping " power. There was an officer in NYC who hit a robber in the chest with all nine 00 buck and got shot twice in his vest before he cranked another into the perp.
I like the shop clerk in Kalifornia who shot a robber 18 times with a S&W 686. When the asked why he shot him 18 times he said " I ran out of speed loaders"
Shot well, and often. Goldy
Hydra shocks probably would not have mattered, and yes, you are missing the point. 
There is NO magic bullet...(certainly not outdated designs like HS)
The Hydrashock would make a slightly bigger hole assuming it didn't plug, but there is NO reason to believe it would have penetrated as far...and certainly no farther.
John used to tell funny stories about people that had been shot multiple times and they fell down due to "graying out " blood loss.
Only to get back up when the blood ran back to their brain while they were horizontal
The lesson is....plan on making multiple well placed shots
And don't stand there looking surprised when the BG doesn't just fall down and die
Caliber is much LESS important than placement and frequency
What would have stopped her laughing would have been more torso hits!
There is NO magic bullet...(certainly not outdated designs like HS)
The Hydrashock would make a slightly bigger hole assuming it didn't plug, but there is NO reason to believe it would have penetrated as far...and certainly no farther.
John used to tell funny stories about people that had been shot multiple times and they fell down due to "graying out " blood loss.
Only to get back up when the blood ran back to their brain while they were horizontal
The lesson is....plan on making multiple well placed shots
And don't stand there looking surprised when the BG doesn't just fall down and die
Caliber is much LESS important than placement and frequency
What would have stopped her laughing would have been more torso hits!
mathman
Here we go again...I better sell all of my 45's tomorrow and start buying 9mm's since they are sooooooo much better...
On the contrary mathman, 9mm is no better or no worse. That's the point, but soooo many believe the .45 is superior. You already have a .45 fine, but for those uninformed who are just buying guns or don't know, the answer is 9mm, .40 or .45 doesn't matter(1 in the same essentially). Goes with what gun fits you best. Some guns only come in 9mm or only .40 or .45. Don't choose a .40 that you shoot average or doesn't feel great over a 9mm just because you thing a .40 is a better stopper!
Here we go again...I better sell all of my 45's tomorrow and start buying 9mm's since they are sooooooo much better...
On the contrary mathman, 9mm is no better or no worse. That's the point, but soooo many believe the .45 is superior. You already have a .45 fine, but for those uninformed who are just buying guns or don't know, the answer is 9mm, .40 or .45 doesn't matter(1 in the same essentially). Goes with what gun fits you best. Some guns only come in 9mm or only .40 or .45. Don't choose a .40 that you shoot average or doesn't feel great over a 9mm just because you thing a .40 is a better stopper!
"And don't stand there looking surprised when the BG doesn't just fall down and die."
Believe me, Obiwan, if I can slow the BG down for half a minute, I won't be
standing there looking surprised.
I'll be departing that scene so fast I'll leave a vapor trail.
I can call the cops from a mile away, I don't have to be standing around
being a target for the BG when he gets his second wind.
Walter
Believe me, Obiwan, if I can slow the BG down for half a minute, I won't be
standing there looking surprised.
I'll be departing that scene so fast I'll leave a vapor trail.
I can call the cops from a mile away, I don't have to be standing around
being a target for the BG when he gets his second wind.
Walter
FrankDrebin
Moderator
I highly suggest you stick around long enough to make sure the bad guy's wallet and gun don't vanish after you shoot him. Next thing you know, you're on trial for felony murder.
Para Bellum
New member
Apples and Oranges
....it's always the same comparison of apples and oranges. Hardball ist nonsense-ammunition. Hollow-Points or EMFJ might have made a difference. Caliber most likely wouldn't. Defense-calibers all behave pretty much the same if you compare the same type of ammuntition. The only exeption is the .45 from a 1911, that one jammmmmms
(That's why I would chose a Glock to shoot 45's if....at....all....)
....it's always the same comparison of apples and oranges. Hardball ist nonsense-ammunition. Hollow-Points or EMFJ might have made a difference. Caliber most likely wouldn't. Defense-calibers all behave pretty much the same if you compare the same type of ammuntition. The only exeption is the .45 from a 1911, that one jammmmmms
(That's why I would chose a Glock to shoot 45's if....at....all....)
FrankDrebin
Moderator
What about a nice round like Keith developed with a flat point almost the same diameter as the whole bullet...I giant wadcutter that cuts a hole almost the same size of the bullet instead of punching a hole that closes right back up? In that case, caliber would absolutely matter a great deal.
Para Bellum
New member
caliber doesn't matter
9mm or 11,4mm (.45) or 10mm (.40) is not a significant difference in diameter. Diameter is totally irrelevant by the way. Velocity is much more important, see rifle ammunition....
9mm or 11,4mm (.45) or 10mm (.40) is not a significant difference in diameter. Diameter is totally irrelevant by the way. Velocity is much more important, see rifle ammunition....