Squib with both powder and primer present

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So I get the squib round that made it all the way flush with the muzzle in my 5" Smith 629 Classic (44 Magnum). It was my reload of a 240 gr MO coated SWC using 20.0 gr of PowerPro 300-MP. I have used this load plenty before hand. It was easy enough to tell that I needed to stop shooting.

On presenting the gun to my gunsmith he removed the spent case and found unburned powder. I had removed that case before coming to him and apparently upended the barrel, so lots of the powder had been down in the gun interior and come back up, now discolored and with a few oil clumps. He would need to take down the gun and do a thorough cleaning, aside from removing the bullet with his inertial puller, bringing it forward rather than back through the barrel, as one would do for a primer-only squib stuck near the forcing cone.

My gun guy suggested I shake the remaining rounds and listen for powder, which I did, hearing nothing without a stethoscope. The idea was to discover any others in which the powder had been fouled and cause to clump up. I pulled 4 rounds and found no abnormalities.

I had fired a number of rounds from the same batch that same outing, so I am now baffled at what may have caused this type of squib and how to proceed. I only have 10 rounds left but don't find a reason why they should be pulled and the powder scrapped. I do certainly want to avoid another squib at $60 a pop to remove any I can't do myself.

Are there any ideas how one might get this type of squib? I had something similar with 38 wadcutters not seated deeply enough, I guess resulting in pressure too low, but this is different, given bullets inserted properly and roll crimped securely at the crimp groove.. I don't see it as a low powder charge, because there is little evidence of any ignition.

The case remained in good condition, so a rupture is not a factor. However, the primer might have blown, but if so it was reseated during firing, such as it was.

I had used magnum primers (Federal), but it is debatable whether 300-MP needs them. They always worked before. If I somehow mixed a regular large pistol primer, I would be surprised to see the difference in primer effect be so dramatic.

Thanks for any ideas.
 
1) 20gr of 300MP "seems" a little light for that weight bullet. What was the load source?

2) No need to take the gun to a smith (IF) next time. Empty the case; upend the barrel into
a paper towel to get the powder out; clean out the barrel behind the bullet with BreakFree as
both solvent and lube; ... and smack the bullet out from the front (to the rear) with a brass
rod from the hardware store.**

Some people keep brass rod cut to different lengths to drop in behind the bullet until enough
protrude from the forcing cone to smack from there (with another rod).
But I'm not that anal. ;)
 
Please clarify a couple things. What do you mean when you say that the gunsmith removed the spent case and then you state that you removed the spent case before visiting him.
What do you mean gun powder in the interior of the gun? In the barrel or under the side plate and in the trigger area.
How did you reload the rounds? And more importantly how do you drop the powder?
I would guess the powder charge was present but significantly under the minimun charge or somehow that load got contaminated. Is there any way water or oil could have accidentally dropped into the case?
FYI you should be able to get a bullet out with out going to a gunsmith even at the end of the muzzle. I would find the largest wooden dowel that fit into the barrel, spray some oil down the barrel, and start hitting it out.

You state the you have had similar problems with 38 specials not seated deep enough. In my experiences that would not be possible. If wadcutter is seated more than 1/4 of anch inch out of the case it will not fully insert into the cylinder of any of the guns that I own. I don't think the small amount of seating depth variance available is going to cause a squib unless something else is wrong.
 
So I get the squib round that made it all the way flush with the muzzle in my 5"
Click to expand...
Shoot them out of a 4" barrel??
But seriously, maybe the inside of that one case was still damp from washing it out after cleaning/tumbling.
 
Sounds to me like a clogged flash hole. I have had this happen with a couple of rifle rounds that got clogged with dirt. I now do a look inside of cases before priming them.
 
I now do a look inside of cases before priming them.
Click to expand...

A lot of time and space is used discussing "when I tumble, when I punch primers, when I tumble etc., etc.. I am not in mortal combat with reloading, I check flash holes, when it comes to measuring or punching clods there is no shortage if tools around here.

Then there is that other thing, I know the weight of the case, I know the weight of the bullet, I know the weight of the powder, and:) I know the weight of the primer.

After loading I can determine if there is anything added or missing.

F. Guffey
 
Real gun, I had similar mis hap years ago and it cost me a pistol. No reason was ever found and every time I reload I think of that " One" round.
Without being there and looking over your shoulder and inspecting all your cases you may never get an answer to the squib. Not sure how you reload and type of press, auto,singlestage etc.. But
1- Glad it was squib and not over charged.
2- Glad you realized it before pulling the trigger again.
3- NEVER be in any hurry to reload.
4- Don't get/ be distracted while reloading.
5- Check and if not sure re check what you have done.
6- Inspect all your cases well before loading.
You will have bad primers from time to time. If you wet wash cases, make sure you have them well dried with old primers removed.
If you over oiled pistol and didn't dry patch cyl, oil might pregnate rounds but you said you fired several before.

Carry on and be safe.

Mike
 
I load on a turret and look in each case before placing a bullet. I suppose there could have been a light load, but there was lots of powder that never ignited.

I removed the case during my own inspection. I then put it back in the cylinder. In between there was the opportunity for powder to follow to the rear of the cylinder and go into openings into the gun interior. When the gunsmith looked at it, he was able to pour powder out of the holes. The powder was a strange color. There was only one small clump that seemed to suggest encountering oil.

So far, the most plausible hunch offered is the obstructed flash hole.

Note that I wrote that the bullet had gone all the way down the barrel, now flush with the muzzle. That is not a squib to be driven all the way back through the barrel. It makes more sense to use the inertial puller, similar to a gear puller, drill into the bullet to grab it, and work the puller weight enough to remove the bullet, probably less than an inch of movement.

I asked if I could use a primer-only load to blow it out and was told that could "ring" the barrel. I have my set of squib rods and have removed squibs before, but those were lodged at the forcing cone. The odd thing about this squib was that there was either enough force from the magnum primer or enogh powder ignition to drive the bullet almost out of the barrel.

Powder contamination makes sense to me as an explanation, but I don't know how that would happen in my procedures. I may have left powder in the hopper for a week, but other preceding rounds were unaffected.

I think moisture in the case is a possibility. Still there were no preceding rounds affected. Normally I sonic clean cases as soon as returning from the range and set them aside until my can measure fills up enough to make a single caliber load in the tumbler. I don't have a lot of 44 Magnum brass in circulation, so it is conceivable that I rushed or chose to air dry them as a small batch and then used them without allowing enough drying time. I dry most caliber cases in a dehydrator, but I never have that many 44 mags at a time to dedicate a separate tray in the drier, sorted by caliber. It handles four trays/calibers, but I might shoot 5 or 6 calibers in one outing and then opt to air dry one or two of them. I will certainly watch going forward to make sure my cases are completely dry before use.
 
20.0 gr of PowerPro 300-MP is only 2.5 grains below minimum(22.5). Not likely to be due to that.
Like m&p45acp10+1 says, sounds like a clogged flash hole to me too.
"...his inertial puller..." Is likely a brass rod and a plastic mallet. No place on a Smith 629 to bash for inertia to work.
 
"...his inertial puller..." Is likely a brass rod and a plastic mallet. No place on a Smith 629 to bash for inertia to work.
Click to expand...

Better allow for some new information. If familiar with a gear puller, the bullet comes out the muzzle, not back down the barrel. He has to drill into the bullet and thread a bolt of some sort. He described it, but I haven't seen it.
 
That's more than 10% below MIN, and with a very slow burning/low pressure powder to boot.
Note this info from the Alliant Powder rep two years ago:

Guys,

I saw this post this morning and wanted to jump in and set the story straight, but I didn't have any data directly comparing Win296 to Power Pro(R) 300MP. I have shot some head to head and can now prove that 296/H110 are faster burning than Power Pro 300MP.
I shot Win 296 and 300MP at the same charge weight in 357Mag (I am not going to give the load details):
Win296 - 1696ft/sec @ 38,500psi
Power Pro 300MP - 1637ft/sec @ 30,900psi

So, as you can see, the Power Pro 300MP is a good bit slower burning than 296/H110. This is how we intended it. We had St. Marks design the product to be slower burning than WC 297, which is slower than 296, and they did a good job.
Please accept this as the final word on this. Power Pro 300MP and Win296/H110 are not to be confused as the same products with different names. They will have different reloading data, and they must not be confused.

I don't know where Layne Simpson got the impression that the products are the same, but it should not have been from us. I recall having a nice discussion with him and Ben at the last SHOT Show, but we would not have told him they are the same.
Sorry for any confusion on this. Please accept my input as the final word here.

Be safe.
Paul
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=327598&start=0

"We have met the enemy, and he is us" noted Pogo.
300MP is not a powder for light loads -- esp below minimums.
 
20.0 gr of PowerPro 300-MP is only 2.5 grains below minimum(22.5).
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Other than rule of thumb, 10% below their 25 gr max is 22.5 for SJSP. I see no minimum range published by Alliant. The load is for coated lead 240 gr SWC, which is robust but noticeably less so behind jacketed soft points. If it is any indication, the load spits fire, rocks the neighborhood, and gets stunned exclamations from neighbors on the range. It no way resembles a 44 Special load. I have used 300-MP extensively, read the articles, and believe I know something about it. The load then is not pertinent to the problem, although a low charge otherwise, caused by some hiccup in the powder measuring, would certainly be. I have used the load extensively, no sweat, very accurate but far from "soft".

Note that I have chosen to use Magnum primers, although there seems to be a debate about whether they are necessary. My magnums of various calibers get Magnum primers, period.
 
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The bottom line that it squibbed, failed to fully ignite/burn the powder, and is specifically designed as a slow-burn propellant.

That it spits fire at the muzzle (when it does ignite) should not be a surprise.

Incidentally, I ran a quick analysis with QuickLoad using "semi comparable" W296 (a faster burn powder) as baseline.

240 LRNFP/W296/25.5gr/OAL:1.6" to get 27,000psi and only 68% burn in 5"
If I drop to 20 grains, we're down to 13ksi and fully half the powder dumps outside the muzzle.

Small wonder an even slower powder like MP300 excites the next-door shooter ! ;)
 
240 LRNFP/W296/25.5gr/OAL:1.6" to get 27,000psi and only 68% burn in 5"
If I drop to 20 grains, we're down to 13ksi and fully half the powder dumps outside the muzzle.
Click to expand...

Those numbers certainly wouldn't apply to the gun and load I am shooting. This thing is a cannon. I used to shoot 20.7 and thought that was too hot for anything I wanted to shoot. The 20.0 load is accurate and fun, and I am sticking to it. The load did not cause the squib, no way, and I am done defending it.
 
The warning used to say do not drop below 3% of published loads with H110/WW296.

The results are the same as the OP experienced.....lots of unburned and clumpy powder and a bullet wedged in the barrel.

He states he has proven his load and I believe him.

Thus, it would leave one to think that a light charge was produced by the loading equipment.

300MP is a completely different animal than H110/WW296. Alliant has never published any warnings concerning this powder and light charges. Should they???
 
I contacted them, asking if MP-300 could be reduced 10% from maximum for starting loads, or should the max load be reduced less, to avoid hang-fires & other inconvenient things, ANALOGOUS to the 3% charge reduction for H110.
I got a very tactful, entertaining reply from Alliant, saying in no uncertain terms that MP-300 was not, never had been, and will never be the same as 296/H110. I also got some neato trivia about one of my patron saints.

I wrote back, politely thanking them for the trivia, and clarifying my question. I assured them I would not use MR-300 data to load 296/H110, nor the converse, and that my REAL question was, would the usual "10% rule" of work-up be best with MR-300, or should smaller reductions from maximum be used as a starting point. It turns out that the 10% was the way to go, and a bit more perseverance with reading on their website would have answered my question.

This spectre of MP-300 getting confused with H110/296 seems to be a major bug-a-boo for Alliant. Perhaps relating the incident to Alliant, with the lot #, assuring them that you'll not use H110/296 for MP-300 nor the converse, and asking if anyone else might have mentioned similar problems. Even if they say you're the only one, at least then, they'll be watchful for other such reports.

It was a generally pleasant exchange, radically different than the reply I'd received previously when offering the suggestion that some serious time and effort be devoted to developing "T/C & Ruger Only" reloads in .45 Colt, using their new MP-300 powder. If memory serves, I pointed out that one needn't go the 30,000 p.s.i. limit observed by Hodgdon, et. al., or Western Powders, but even a modest pressure increase, like 21,000 -25,000 p.s.i. would likely be well received and make their lawyers perspire less.

I received a reply telling me the SAAMI spec for .45 Colt is 14,000 c.u.p., the .45 Colt case was never built to withstand higher pressures (Guess they haven't sectioned a .45 colt case in a while), and intoning that any attempt to improve its ballistics by upping the chamber pressure with slower-burning powders was tantamount to my wishing to return from a day of shooting at the range with less than my full complement of fingers, and (lastly) that I should "Shoot safe."

I was not cordial in my response.
 
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I contacted them, asking if MP-300 could be reduced 10% from maximum for starting loads,
Click to expand...

What should that starting load be for 240 gr lead SWC? I am not aware that Alliant has anything on lead bullets. You will find that saying I am below 10% reduction is out of context, since 25 grain max applies to jacketed. Lead loads at the same bullet weight should be expected to be less powder.

Cutting to the chase here, with everyone's help here, I think we can go with the conclusion that the powder measure must have bound up and dropped a light load.

I had 14 rounds remaining, already pulled 4 of them looking for anything suspicious, and will now pull the remaining 10, starting over with new powder. I only had a tablespoon or little more of powder left in that container, so I pitched it. I want to do everything I can to ensure not having to pay for another squib extraction, the risk of firing a round behind a squib, or the doubt cast on an entire batch of reloads.

Thanks for any insights offered.
 
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One other slight possibility, possibly you got a primer without an anvil. In over 30 years of loading I'd never encountered this, but when loading a bunch of .223 using Tula primers I noticed one primer in the tray missing an anvil so after that I started inspecting each tray and in the 1500 I've used so far found two missing their anvils. Could be just a Tula thing but since noticing this I've made primer inspection an integral part of my loading process, seems you never know these days.
 
I had several cast 38spl with powdercoat that the powder clumped togetherinto one solid piece. I assumed because they were stored in my humid basement for over a year and I could turn the boolit around with my fingers in the crimp groove. So obviously it wasn't close to air-tight and open to the elements. I could hear the solid chunk of powder when shaking the cases.
 
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