Someone finally says it: “California has a negative influence on our society”

Unfortunately, the California girls the Beach Boys sang about are now devolved Valley twits or wanna bes as described by Doug.

The one thing that puzzles me is the abundance of quality formal shooting ranges in this area--right here across the bay from the no-gunners. I've seen less in other, gun friendly areas--Dallas, Boise. Could be that the higher population creates more demand, could be that there are more areas suitable for informal ranges.

I am looking forward to being able to walk into a shop like the one I visited in Salem, OR or in Boise and just buy what I want.
 
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The one thing that puzzles me is the abundance of quality formal shooting ranges in this area--right here across the bay from the no-gunners. I've seen less in other, gun friendly areas--Dallas, Boise
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I think one of the reasons is we here in Idaho can go onto BLM land just outside the city limits and shoot all we want. I see guys set up from casual to portable bench rests plenty on weekends from the road riding thru the hills on my Motorcycle or from the car..We are out there plenty shooting too.
Come on up, live here, go and buy the rifle or handgun of your choice, some ammo and shoot it on the way home the same day.
 
I think one of the reasons is we here in Idaho can go onto BLM land just outside the city limits and shoot all we want. I see guys set up from casual to portable bench rests plenty on weekends from the road riding thru the hills on my Motorcycle or from the car..We are out there plenty shooting too.
Come on up, live here, go and buy the rifle or handgun of your choice, some ammo and shoot it on the way home the same day.
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Yeah same up here. Between public land and people who own decent pieces of property, there isn't much need for "shooting ranges" up here...and you won't find many. Well, that combined with lower population.

It kinda sucks, though, because while I don't mind heading up to the hills to shoot my wife gets less excited by it...she'd prefer a more formal (preferably indoor) pistol range.

She's from California. ; )
 
The formal ranges definitely have advantages. Indoors for the obvious year round use, outdoors just because the ranges are usually administered by a club (reasonable prices in this area) that can buy and maintain really nice gear that individual shooters could not afford.

The three clubs I belong to all support action pistol sports--IDPA, IPSC, ICORE, CAS, etc. This would probably require a formal range for the most part.
 
Only if you're looking at the first identified and treated cases
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That generally fits the definition of debut

Could it also mean that those other states are more honest about reporting cases or that there are fewer loopholes or could it simply be a symptom of California being a negative influence on our society?

I have no doubt that our California members are good decent and honorable people. Just as I have no doubt that they do not represent the California's defective society as a whole
 
Only if you're looking at the first identified and treated cases
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That generally fits the definition of debut
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So if a disease isn't identified and isn't treated it doesn't exist? That makes perfect sense. AIDS (then called GRID, of course) was first identified in 1981 by doctors in California, which tells me nothing except that doctors in California are perhaps smarter (more likely luckier) than doctors elsewhere. People were running around the US with AIDS/HIV prior to that. People in the US died of HIV/AIDS outside California prior to that. I'd call that more of a "debut" than the day we finally figured out what killed them.

I say don't shoot the messenger. If doctors in California hadn't identified the cause, a whole lot more people (many of them heterosexual, in case that matters to you) could have died.

Could it also mean that those other states are more honest about reporting cases or that there are fewer loopholes...
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See, and oddly my gut tells me that cases of HIV/AIDS would be less likely to go unreported in California than, say, Georgia. But yes, that is a possibility and when dealing with numbers like these they're not going to be completely accurate. Of course, they'd have to be off by a pretty large factor in order for California to suddenly have a rate of infection significantly higher than the national average. Especially enough for it to qualify as the "land of AIDS."

No, I think I'm going to stick with my hypothesis that comprehensive sexual education is more likely the culprit here.

...or could it simply be a symptom of California being a negative influence on our society?
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I suppose, if you're on the "everything wrong with the country must be *insert-scapegoat*'s fault" type. Not my bag, though.
 
I say don't shoot the messenger. If doctors in California hadn't identified the cause, a whole lot more people (many of them heterosexual, in case that matters to you) could have died.
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And of course you now have to resort to the simplistic accusation of homophobia. Please show me where I have stated any moral opinion on homosexuality or have even brought the subject into the discussion.
was first identified in 1981 by doctors in California, which tells me nothing except that doctors in California are perhaps smarter
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That could be the case. If not for the fact that it was the CDC that first identified the disease,( based on California patients,) and not California doctors
AIDS (then called GRID, of course) was first identified in 1981 by doctors in California,
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AIDS was not referred to as GRID back then GRID was just one of the names of the many different sets of signs and symptoms that eventually got lumped into the AIDS/HIV when that was determined to be the name that the disease would be referred to as
People in the US died of HIV/AIDS outside California prior to that.
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Source ?
they'd have to be off by a pretty large factor in order for California to suddenly have a rate of infection significantly higher than the national average. Especially enough for it to qualify as the "land of AIDS."
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True but being the recognized epicenter of the AIDS outbreak in America could reasonably earn it the moniker "The Land of AIDS"

No, I think I'm going to stick with my hypothesis that comprehensive sexual education is more likely the culprit here.
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I'll agree when you live with it since the beginning you are more likely to be more vigilant in not letting back in than people who were worlds away when it started in your backyard.
My yard is virtually free of the stinging nettles that originated in my neighborhood from my lawn because I have had longer to fight it
I suppose, if you're on the "everything wrong with the country must be *insert-scapegoat*'s fault" type. Not my bag, though.
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I suppose you can show me how the statement "California is a negative influence on our society" translates to everything wrong with our society originates in California?
 
People in the US died of HIV/AIDS outside California prior to that.
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Source ?
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Already linked.

Also, are you arguing that nobody outside California died of HIV/AIDS before 1981? That those first identified patients were actually the first people in the US to have it? Really?

True but being the recognized epicenter of the AIDS outbreak in America could reasonably earn it the moniker "The Land of AIDS"
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It's no longer the epicenter. And in 1981 it wasn't the epicenter, as that title was easily shared with New York. And considering the (still) high rates of HIV infection in New York and pretty much every state that borders the NYC metro area, I think it makes a much better epicenter for the disease than California. Also, recognized by whom?

I suppose you can show me how the statement "California is a negative influence on our society" translates to everything wrong with our society originates in California?
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It doesn't. But the idea that HIV/AIDS is just a symptom of that influence comes pretty close.
 
But the idea that HIV/AIDS is just a symptom of that influence comes pretty close.
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If you say so. So by your logic if I say that Santa images are a symptom of the Christmas season am I saying that everything that relates to Christmas is about Santa?
I was merely pointing out how California could conceivably be considered The land of AIDS.
You cannot say that it is not the epicenter of the outbreak anymore unless you plan to go back and change history. Epicenters of the beginning of an event don't change with time
Does the epicenter of a particular earthquake change because another one of equal magnitude happens further down the line?

Also, are you arguing that nobody outside California died of HIV/AIDS before 1981?
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Nope I am saying that California was at the epicenter of the American outbreak.
Patient Zero in those cases is generally considered to be a Canadian fight attendant who had sex with multiple partners, from guess where and guess what they died of and when

And in 1981 it wasn't the epicenter, as that title was easily shared with New York. And considering the (still) high rates of HIV infection in New York and pretty much every state that borders the NYC metro area, I think it makes a much better epicenter for the disease than California
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And I suppose that you can show me where I have said that I don't hold an equal level of contempt for NY
 
I always laugh when I see these California-bashing threads. Personally I think that alot of it has to do with some hidden jealousy. Not everyone can afford to live here, and as far as climates go, Southern California is about as good as it gets. No winters, no tornados, no hurricanes, no desert heat.

Yes, housing prices are nuts. However I'm inclined to believe that a huge part of that is supply and demand. Yes we have an immigration problem. I wouldn't worry too much about that since it WILL be coming to a city near you soon. Yes we do have crappy gun laws. However I still can build an AR or an AK and pick up pretty much any long gun I want save a 50cal. Handguns are more expensive and there are some I cant get, but there are still plenty I can.

Having lived in Texas for the past 3 years, I've experienced "free america". It was nice, but its no substitute for home. No substitute for good mexican food, perfect weather and watching the sun disappear into liquid (anything else is blasphemy). I won't give up my AR, but around here a "gun" is also a 8 foot surfboard and I'm not going to give that up either.

Those that don't want to be here shouldn't. That means less traffic for me. Those that bitch about Cali and don't live here, I'll remember that when you show up here on vacation.
 
Nope I am saying that California was at the epicenter of the American outbreak.
Patient Zero in those cases is generally considered to be a Canadian fight attendant who had sex with multiple partners, from guess where and guess what they died of and when
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This has been discredited, including (IIRC) by the researcher that identified him. I'm off to class for now, but if you really need me to I'll link you to some sources later tonight. Otherwise I encourage you to do a little research on your own.

And I suppose that you can show me where I have said that I don't hold an equal level of contempt for NY
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Fair enough. ;)


Also, STAGE2: :)
 
Personally I think that alot of it has to do with some hidden jealousy. Not everyone can afford to live here,
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When I married my wife I was offered a free home , $150,000, and a job for life to move to San Diego, I turned it down
This has been discredited, including (IIRC) by the researcher that identified him. I'm off to class for now, but if you really need me to I'll link you to some sources later tonight. Otherwise I encourage you to do a little research on your own
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I've seen the research you provide, no thanks. Having three family members who died of the disease I was very aware of the epidemic when it started and where it started
I don't need a revisionist view of it

This has been discredited, including (IIRC) by the researcher that identified him
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You poo-poo the Canadian theory while touting the equally disputed NJ CHAT theory

You want to hear an equally compelling theory.

Just before this thing hit the national news and woman from the Marielle detention camps was on a talk show.
She spoke of a group of Cuban men in the camps that had some mysterious disease that seemed to affect only their group.
She claimed that many of the medical staff were concerned but it was determined that they were segregated and it was determined that they were not contagious and there was no indication at the time that it was life threatening so they were released into American society, guess where.

I cannot source this I can only say that I remember the interview
 
I lived in Monterey for a few years, and from what I've heard California doesn't get much better than that. Carmel, Pebble Beach, gazing at the ocean from your yard ... forget it. I won't voluntarily go there even to visit. They have some of the dumbest laws (and people) in the country. I'll stick with the other 49 states.
 
how did we go from this,

It’s a popular refrain from many in the West. When Californians move in, it’s always their fault when things change. They infect the rest of the region with their politics and questionable driving, and make housing prices soar.
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To arguing were Aids was introduced into America?

And I have personally heard this many times.

They complain how cold it is. And they just moved here because it is cheaper and to ’get away,’ but then they keep saying things like, ‘We did it in California this way, so why don’t you change?
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’.

Lots of wonderful places to experience and live there, I spent close to 30 years there. I have seen 90% of Ca. but to many people and to many laws for me.
To each his own I guess. Was telling a bud today of how when I was back in the late 80's there was places I had hung out with my girl friend in the 60's at night I would drive a couple of miles out of my way to avoid in the 80's.
Times change and so do areas, laws and the people that make up the population to a large degree.. Plus many other things I chose not to be there if I can help it. I could help it so I left.
San Diego County is nice so are plenty of northern or rural areas but you still have to deal with the laws and 35 million other folks.

I don't think I would ever live in Calif proper again but if I could afford to winter down along that Colorado River probably near Bull Head City I would.
Came real close to buying a piece of property when at the River Run 3 years ago. I have been sorry I didn't ever since.
 
It's called a free flowing discussion.
This is the angle that Juan and I have chosen to follow, it was included in the OPs OP.
Others are welcome to jump in or ignore that line of debate

So far I don't think we have gone too far away from simple spirited debate.
 
I don't think it really matters where AIDS was introduced, Calif. is going to get the majority of the blame. The reputation and mind set of the San Francisco area will see to that. Plus a large percentage of the rest of the country doesn't care for Calif. to having a outright disdain for Calif. 2+2 =4 pretty simple really, doesn't take a genius to figure it out.

People DON'T care for Calif or it's people. It's nothing new I ran into it as a child 50 years ago visiting other states. There is a multitude of reasons many of which could be debatable but the bottom line is Ca is not liked much anywhere out side of Calif.

Some have never been there, some such as me have but we all feel the same, the place as a whole sucks. pretty simple really.
 
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eople DON'T care for Calif or it's people
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But in my case that is not true.
True the part of California I have been to sucked but no more than a similar area in any state would suck.
As a whole I think California as a land mass is probably one of the top three areas of the country.

I have never met a Californian that I didn't like anymore than I dislike people from other states that had the character flaw that they did

The problem is with that particular culture as a whole, which probably evolved due to the attractiveness of the landmass
I don't know if it is a laid back attitude to the point that they don't get involved with in the politics of the area or if the many cultures cannot iron out a standard identity that would include taking the state back from the liberal invaders.

I like the state and I like most of the people I have met there but something in the mix just ain't right
 
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