Socialized Medicine

Have you made a plea to the local community yet? People are far more generous then you think and this is the kind of human interest story media outlets eat up. You will likely get funds and reffeals to local resources. It's a local scope of impact and there is the solution. Find it in your family,friends or community. You should be no more reluctant to ask your community for help voluntarily then you are to suggest the entire country help by force of law.

And I very much doubt you have no unemployed relatives, no time outside of work, and no friends that can help. It is a matter of willingness. These are examples of why family is important. Treat your children like pets or furniture and de-value your marriages and poof, your old and in a State nursing home with nobody willing to help you.
 
Because he needs to support himself and a family?

It was meant in a facetious manner, JC. He does, after all, expect others to work for his mom's healthcare at no charge. In the end, it doesn't matter if that's a nurse taking care of his mom for free all month, or whether it's every one of us working an hour per month pro bono, so to speak, in order to pay for that nurse.

That's rich, though--he doesn't want to take a financial risk with caring for his mom at home, but he has the gall to complain about the fact that the state won't force anyone else to pick up the tab.

In a perfect world, nurses come and whisk us away for prompt treatment at no cost to anyone. In the real world, hospice nurses and doctors need to eat, keep the lights on at home, and pay back the student loans amassed in med school. No amount of legislation passed can make hospice and nursing care any cheaper--it can just spread the cost around. That's all that pesta wants, anyway...to not be the one left holding the bag in the end, financially speaking. He doesn't care who ends up with it, and he thinks it somehow goes away if he sticks it in the mail and writes "society" on the envelope instead of a specific name.
 
Pesta, I regret your family's health problems.

MKloos, his is an artful summary, not of Pesta specifically, but of the mindset of so many who push for involuntary socialisation.

In the real world, hospice nurses and doctors need to eat, keep the lights on at home, and pay back the student loans amassed in med school. No amount of legislation passed can make hospice and nursing care any cheaper--it can just spread the cost around. That's all that pesta wants, anyway...to not be the one left holding the bag in the end, financially speaking. He doesn't care who ends up with it, and he thinks it somehow goes away if he sticks it in the mail and writes "society" on the envelope instead of a specific name.
 
But Marko and zuki, isn't that what insurance is always about anyway? Spreading the cost around? You say it like it's an evil thing, but it is one of the primary motivations for nearly every person who pays for any kind of insurance. If my home burns down and all my possessions go with it, I won't be ruined...because my homeowner's insurance will spread the cost around. If I come down with cancer and can't afford the treatment, that's okay...my medical insurance spreads the cost around.

We buy insurance on the one hand hoping we'll never get our money back out of it (because we'll be lucky enough to not need it) but knowing that if something horrible does happen we may well get more out of it, because it spreads the cost around.

So yeah, that's what every insured person wants; to not be the one "left holding the bag." I don't see how anybody who pays for insurance can demonize somebody for that.

Before anybody bothers, yes I do realize there is a fundamental difference. Choice. Which, of course, is why I don't agree that socialized universal coverage is the way to go...take away all competition on the matter, and it's probably not exactly going to lead to better care. However, I do wonder why it is that his mother isn't covered by insurance, or why the care needed isn't covered, and wonder if there is any way our current system can be improved.

As it is it just seems like the people that can afford coverage (not necessarily their actual bills/costs, mind you) know that their standard of care may go down if we stop excluding those that can't. Making healthcare just another commodity that some people can afford, and others can't. Which, on the one hand, is perfectly natural...but on the other, I can understand why some might not be fond of the idea. We're talking about the length and quality of somebody's life, not a bigger TV or better cable.
 
But Marko and zuki, isn't that what insurance is always about anyway? Spreading the cost around?

A smart guy answered your question.

Before anybody bothers, yes I do realize there is a fundamental difference. Choice.

As it is it just seems like the people that can afford coverage (not necessarily their actual bills/costs, mind you) know that their standard of care may go down if we stop excluding those that can't.

That premise is flawed. We do not exclude from healthcare those who cannot pay. We already fund healthcare for the poor and elderly lavishly.

At this point, nationalisation/single payer is primarily about paying for those who can pay.
 
JC,

the difference here is that I choose my insurance, whether it's for house, car, or health. With a socialized system, I have no choice. Oh, sure, I'll be able to still go private (unless they pull a Quebec to make the system more "fair" and make sure private payers can't get better heath care by forbidding private payer systems), but I'll still have to pay my "fair share" for everyone else's boo-boos, thereby paying twice if I still want choice.

Besides, the center of the discussion for folks like pesta is not freedom of choice when it comes to health care, or the cost of it in general...it's all about getting something for nothing, by magically legislating a system where benevolent Father State takes care of everyone at no charge. That Father State has to take from everyone first before he can dole it back out...that's generally overlooked, along with the fact that the administrative and bureaucratic overhead of any state-run system always means that fifty cents of every stolen tax dollar goes to something other than hospital bills and kidney transplants.

Then there's an issue most people never address. Why would you want the state to pay for your doctor bill? Just look around and see how they're taking measures against unhealthy behaviors everywhere you look, in the name of "public health". Don't you think that if they pay for your checkups and doctor bills, they will waste no time claiming the right to determine what you do (or don't do) with your body? Do you want the government to have the financial leverage to tell you that you can't smoke, eat red meat, drink booze, go to McDonald's, do some skydiving, or shoot firearms? After all, they'll point out, we pay to fix you if you break, so don't we have a right to make sure you don't break?
 
A smart guy answered your question.

Somebody should give that guy an award, or something. ;)

Besides, the center of the discussion for folks like pesta is not freedom of choice when it comes to health care, or the cost of it in general...it's all about getting something for nothing, by magically legislating a system where benevolent Father State takes care of everyone at no charge. That Father State has to take from everyone first before he can dole it back out...that's generally overlooked,

Actually many who favor it don't overlook that, but rather are more than willing to pay the taxes involved in order to receive the coverage.

along with the fact that the administrative and bureaucratic overhead of any state-run system always means that fifty cents of every stolen tax dollar goes to something other than hospital bills and kidney transplants.

Are you kidding me? You do realize that if there's anybody that can compete with the government on bureaucratic overhead, it's insurance companies, right?

Then again, I'm not sure how much discussion is actually possible when you use terms like "stolen tax dollar" and "enslave." I can understand the sentiment, but that's some weapons-grade rhetoric right there.

Then there's an issue most people never address. Why would you want the state to pay for your doctor bill? Just look around and see how they're taking measures against unhealthy behaviors everywhere you look, in the name of "public health". Don't you think that if they pay for your checkups and doctor bills, they will waste no time claiming the right to determine what you do (or don't do) with your body? Do you want the government to have the financial leverage to tell you that you can't smoke, eat red meat, drink booze, go to McDonald's, do some skydiving, or shoot firearms? After all, they'll point out, we pay to fix you if you break, so don't we have a right to make sure you don't break?

I don't know, has France banned smoking yet? Has England banned red meat? But yes, good point. If I remember correctly, there have already been a couple companies that have tried to do this (specifically smoking comes to mind) with their employees, under the argument that their health insurance premiums cost more because of it.

That premise is flawed. We do not exclude from healthcare those who cannot pay. We already fund healthcare for the poor and elderly lavishly.

At this point, nationalisation/single payer is primarily about paying for those who can pay.

Yes and no. Medicare/Medicaid isn't perfect (both in who it covers and, obviously, actual implementation) and while I'm not well-versed in the ins and outs I've always gotten the impression that our current system by which coverage is generally linked to employers can lead to situations where people who otherwise could pay instead cannot. Particularly with people who switch jobs, lose jobs, or are employed by small businesses or self-employed, maybe? I've heard lots of second-hand and third-hand info, but luckily I've not had to deal with it.
 
Pesta, You and I are the ones who would suffer is socialism health care arrives here! You stated you have no heat and only had 6 dollars left at the end of the month... The increase in taxes would be substantially higher than that. You may not be able to afford the cable and some gas.
I wish I had a new car like that to drive BTW.
Brent
 
I don't know, has France banned smoking yet? Has England banned red meat?

They've both banned smoking, alright. Just in all public places, for now, and in all pubs and restaurants, despite the fact that those aren't public property. They haven't yet banned smoking in private residences, but I would bet money on that happening within the next 10 or 20 years.

Imagine, you can't even light up in a French cafe or British pub anymore...and if they can do it with tobacco, then there's no legal and conceptual barrier to doing it with any other harmful substance, object, or activity. Once you concede that the state has the right to safeguard your health, regardless of your wishes on the matter, then everything's fair game.

But yes, good point. If I remember correctly, there have already been a couple companies that have tried to do this (specifically smoking comes to mind) with their employees, under the argument that their health insurance premiums cost more because of it.

Private companies can choose to set whatever conditions they want on selling someone health insurance, or employing someone. If i don't like it, I have the choice to pick another employer or insurance company. If I find it too onerous altogether, I can choose to not have health insurance. In a state-run compulsory system, I don't have that choice.

Then again, I'm not sure how much discussion is actually possible when you use terms like "stolen tax dollar" and "enslave." I can understand the sentiment, but that's some weapons-grade rhetoric right there.

Well, what else do you call it when I have to work for free, at gunpoint, to pay for pesta's mom's nursing home spot? I mean, that's what it comes down to--I have to pay those taxes (meaning I worked for the collective, or more specifically, pesta's mom, for an hour or a day without pay), otherwise men with guns will come and arrest or kill me. Compulsory work for the benefit of someone else under threat of bodily injury or death is slavery, no matter what kind of term you care to put on it. Call it "weapons-grade rhetoric", tell me all about "social contracts", but that's the nature of the thing once you peel away all the layers of justification and sociology talk.

Actually many who favor it don't overlook that, but rather are more than willing to pay the taxes involved in order to receive the coverage.

Anyone--anyone--who is "more than willing to pay the taxes involved" counts on his benefits being higher than his contributions. It's the old "don't tax you, don't tax me, tax that fellow behind the tree" thing, where the guy behind the tree is some undefined "rich" person, who can presumably afford to shoulder the load.

And how can you say that you would be more than willing to pay the taxes involved, if you have no idea just how much you'd have to pay in taxes to finance a public single-payer system? Can they crank the taxes up as high as they please without you saying, "Hey, this is not worth the expense"? For example, would you be willing to pay 50% payroll deductions, 18% VAT on everything you buy with your after-tax paycheck, $8 for a gallon of unleaded, 40% inheritance tax on anything you manage to pass down to your kids, and a $1000 annual motor tax on your vehicle, just to finance such a system? (And if you think that's far-fetched, that's roughly my brother's tax load as a working stiff in Germany, land of progressive social medicine. But hey, they have "free" health care, and "free" education.)
 
Private companies can choose to set whatever conditions they want on selling someone health insurance, or employing someone. If i don't like it, I have the choice to pick another employer or insurance company. If I find it too onerous altogether, I can choose to not have health insurance. In a state-run compulsory system, I don't have that choice.

I think you, like many, exaggerate the level of "choice" many people in this country have in their employment. And if your employer won't increase your salary for the portion of the insurance premiums they are now not picking up (obviously you'll not be having your portion deducted either) then it's not really much of a "choice" either...because now you're paying more for insurance and being paid less than you otherwise would be to boot.

I've found that in general libertarianism (big L or little l) generally just holds that coercion by economics or coercion by your employer or various other forms of coercion are fine (or, more laughably, don't exist), and that only coercion by the government is evil. I disagree.
 
I've found that in general libertarianism (big L or little l) generally just holds that coercion by economics or coercion by your employer or various other forms of coercion are fine (or, more laughably, don't exist), and that only coercion by the government is evil. I disagree.

I think you need to read up on your definition of "coercion". If an employer sets conditions for my employment before hiring me, that's not coercion, even if they're the only employer in my area code. I always have the option to not seek employment with them--there is no force or fraud involved here.
 
I think you need to read up on your definition of "coercion". If an employer sets conditions for my employment before hiring me, that's not coercion, even if they're the only employer in my area code. I always have the option to not seek employment with them--there is no force or fraud involved here.

Actually, neither force nor fraud is necessary under many definitions of "coercion." Looking deeper, it seems I may have misused it slightly...but while not exactly "fear of reprisal" [EDIT: as you've not yet entered into a relationship with them] (under another definition of coercion) I'd say if the only employer available to you demands something, and you may well die of hunger or exposure if you don't agree, that's hardly a free choice. While there may be a technical difference, it's hardly substantial in effect.

The choice to die in a gutter is hardly a choice at all.

Not that the situation is ever quite that dire in the US, of course. But still, I stand by my assertion that the level of "choice" available to many is often exaggerated.
 
I'd say if the only employer available to you demands something, and you may well die of hunger or exposure if you don't agree, that's hardly a free choice.

The corollary of that is that the employer has a duty to employ you on your own terms, regardless of your qualifications, willingness to work, or availability of work, as long as a.) you ask for the job, and b.) you need the money to not starve or freeze to death.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict that you don't own your own business.

And while we're on the subject of likely scenarios, when is there only ever one choice for you as far as employment goes, regardless of where you live? And even if there was, how does that create an obligation on the part of the employer to hire you?
 
There is economic natural selection. I know men who started with nothing and have never asked or needed anything from anybody, and have become successful and even wealthy.
But, most are eternally dependent on somebody else and pressure the government as best they can to gain some share.
 
There is economic natural selection. I know men who started with nothing and have never asked or needed anything from anybody, and have become successful and even wealthy.
But, most are eternally dependent on somebody else and pressure the government as best they can to gain some share.

Of course, there are also those who work for what they have and yet will neither become wealthy nor be dependent on others (at least as much as is possible in modern society).

And while yes some do come from nothing and become quite successful, there are those who make no mistakes yet manage not to. I hate using the term "luck" since it demeans what those who make it accomplish, but our country is not entirely a meritocracy...and not just because of the nanny-state socialists. And that's setting aside those who are simply born into their position.

The corollary of that is that the employer has a duty to employ you on your own terms, regardless of your qualifications, willingness to work, or availability of work, as long as a.) you ask for the job, and b.) you need the money to not starve or freeze to death.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict that you don't own your own business.

Of course not. But simply by owning your own business you don't necessarily know more about economics or the job market than somebody who doesn't.

That said, obviously an employer cannot be required to, and indeed cannot, hire everybody who needs a job. At the same time, if every employer is offering roughly the same sub-par medical coverage it's not as if a job seeker really has much choice in the matter.

And while we're on the subject of likely scenarios, when is there only ever one choice for you as far as employment goes, regardless of where you live? And even if there was, how does that create an obligation on the part of the employer to hire you?

Never and it doesn't. However the situation in which every prospective employer willing to hire an individual is offering sub-par medical coverage or none at all is not exactly unheard of, especially at the bottom rungs of the employment ladder.

My point is only that looking from the POV of a job seeker, often "choice" is sometimes a very poor word to use.


And I'm not even speaking from personal interest here. You guys all already pay for my health coverage (at least most of it). Yes, even you nate45. I have nothing to gain from socialized healthcare and little to gain from any reforms. [EDIT: Military, not general leeching, before anybody gets all crazy. You have an interest in keeping me healthy so I can go fight wars for you.]
 
At the same time, if every employer is offering roughly the same sub-par medical coverage it's not as if a job seeker really has much choice in the matter.

If every employer is offering the same level of medical coverage, then that's par, not sub-par. If you want better health care than what every employer is offering, then that's not necessarily a conspiracy to keep people sick and bleeding money, but possibly some slightly elevated expectations on your part.

Employers like to hire the best and brightest. One way to get those is to offer a great benefits package. if the kind of coverage you'd like to see isn't offered, then did it ever occur to you that it's not financially feasible, rather than malevolence and "greed" on the employer's part? After all, if highly qualified people flock to jobs with great benefits, why wouldn't an employer offer them to get an edge on the competition?

Look, you're never going to make the employer 100% happy until they have to pay nothing for their employees' health care. You're never going to make the employee 100% happy until they have full health care at zero cost. The balance is somewhere in the middle...and you know who determines that balance? The market does. Employers offer benefits that make people want to work for them. The better your benefits package, the larger your pool of qualified applicants from which to pick.

If all the evil plutocrats conspire to save health care costs by uniformly offering crummy health care (or what you consider such), then all it takes is one renegade who tries to hire away the best workers by offering superior benefits to what everyone else is offering. How many private employers are offering total coverage for all health care costs, no out of pocket expenses, and no contributions? If there are none (or very, very few), why do you think that is? Could it be that there's a point at which the cost for health care outweighs the money generated by that employee?
 
Where is it written in stone that employers should provide health insurance

During WW2 employers started offering health insurance as a lure to employees during the labor shortage.

Now it is assumed that it is a God given right.

Why should your fellow citizens provide you with what you should provide for yourself?

Why is it when it comes to health care people have the attitude that someone else should pay for it?

Should we buy people who can't afford one a car?

I want one of those Blaser rifles. Will you buy it for me?
 
Anyone who advocates socialized medicine needs to take a long look at Walter Reed. This is the government complex at its best, and look at all the problems that they have had.

If they cant get their act together with the military which has an endless budget, what makes you think that they are going to care about Bob from Iowa.
 
Some facts about transplants

I thought this was very interesting, especially when you compare the per capita transplant rates for the US with Canada, the UK and France.
George


Edwards and Organ Transplants
By SCOTT GOTTLIEB
January 11, 2008; Page A11

Campaigning in the primaries, former Sen. John Edwards is leveraging the tragic story of Nataline Sarkisyan -- the 17-year-old California woman who recently died awaiting a liver transplant -- to press his political attack on insurance companies and argue for European-style, single-payer health care. But the former trial lawyer, accustomed to using anecdotes of human suffering to frame his rhetoric, is twisting the facts. Organ transplantation, like many areas of medicine, provides a poor basis for his political thesis that single-payer health care offers a more equitable allocation of scarce resources, or better clinical outcomes.

Late last year, Ms. Sarkisyan developed liver failure, apparently a result of blood clotting that stemmed from the high doses of chemotherapy and a bone marrow transplant she had received to treat relapsed leukemia. She was put on life support as her doctors at the University of California-Los Angeles tried to get her a new liver, and asked CIGNA, the insurer that was acting as administrator to her father's employer-provided, self-insured health plan, to pay for the transplant. CIGNA deemed the transplant unproven in its medical benefit and ineffective as a treatment. It recommended that her father's employer not cover the procedure.

After an appeal, CIGNA hired an oncologist and transplant surgeon to review the case. According to CIGNA, these experts agreed that the transplant exceeded appropriate risk-taking, with little support from existing medical literature.

CIGNA never reversed its administrative decision. But after significant pressure from the California Nurses Association, a powerful union lobby -- and legal threats -- it made a clumsily-announced concession, a one time "exception" to pay for the transplant itself, despite sticking to its judgment that the procedure constituted an experimental use of a scarce organ. But CIGNA's concession came too late. The same day it was made Ms. Sarkisyan was taken off life support and died.

From here, facts are in dispute. Her family says a liver became available while CIGNA wrung its hands over the matter. Some news accounts question this turn, since institutions like UCLA would typically proceed with transplants, even before insurance plans are settled, once an organ becomes available.

Mr. Edwards seized on the case. "We're gonna take their power away and we're not gonna have this kind of problem again," he said on Dec. 21. "These are living and breathing examples of what I'm talking about and there are millions more just like them," Mr. Edwards told reporters on Jan. 6. An edited video of his attacks on CIGNA has posted on YouTube.

Research provides little support to Mr. Edward's underlying premise that single-payer health-care systems would do better. On balance, data suggests that in the U.S. transplant patients do quite well compared to their European counterparts, with significantly more opportunities to undergo transplant procedures, survive the surgery, and benefit from new organs.

Some of the best data pits the U.S. against the U.K. and its National Health Service. A study published in 2004 in the journal Liver Transplantation compared the relative severity of liver disease in transplant recipients in the U.S. and U.K. The results were striking. No patient in the U.K. was in intensive care before transplantation, one marker for how sick patients are, compared with 19.3% of recipients in the U.S. Additionally, the median for a score used to assess how advanced someone's liver disease is, the "MELD" score, was 10.9 in the U.K. compared with 16.1 in the U.S. -- a marked gap, with higher scores for more severe conditions. Both facts suggest even the sickest patients are getting access to new organs in the U.S.

On the whole, the U.S. also performs more transplants per capita, giving patients better odds of getting new organs. Doctors here do far more partial liver transplants from living, related donors, but also more cadaveric transplants (where the organ comes from a deceased donor). In 2002 -- a year comparative data is available -- U.S. doctors performed 18.5 liver transplants per one million Americans. This is significantly more than in the U.K. or in single-payer France, which performed 4.6 per million citizens, or in Canada, which performed 10 per million.

What about the differences in outcomes between ours and single-payer systems, an issue Mr. Edwards hasn't directly addressed? One recent study found that patients' five-year mortality after transplants for acute liver failure, the type from which Ms. Sarkisyan presumably suffered, was about 5% higher in the U.K. and Irleand than the U.S. The same study also found that in the period right after surgery, death rates were as much as 27% higher in the U.K. and Ireland than in the U.S., although differences in longer-term outcomes equilibrated once patients survived the first year of their transplant.

These findings aren't confined to transplanted livers. A study in the Journal of Heart and Lung Transplantation compared statistics on heart transplants over the mid 1990s. It found patients were more likely to receive hearts in the U.S., even when they were older and sicker. The rate was 8.8 transplants per one million people, compared to 5.4 in the U.K. Over the same period, about 15% of patients died while waiting for new hearts in the U.K. compared to 12% in the U.S. In 2006, there were 28,931 transplants of all organ types in the U.S., 96.8 transplants for every one million Americans. There were 2,999 total organ transplants in the U.K., 49.5 transplants for every one million British citizens.

What about Mr. Edwards's implicit thesis, that U.S. organ allocation is dictated by someone's ability to pay? When it comes to livers, the majority of U.S. transplants are for chronic liver disease, usually resulting from hepatitis C or alcoholism. These are diseases disproportionately affecting lower-income Americans who predictably comprise a comparatively higher number of people getting new organs.

Ideally, everyone who can benefit from an organ transplant would receive one, especially a young patient like Ms. Sarkisyan. But with more patients than available organs, some form of allocation procedure involving administrative judgments is inevitable. In Ms. Sarkisyan's case, that judgment was made by CIGNA, in an advisory capacity to her father's employer, interpreting the terms of the employer's health-insurance contract. In the U.K. and other European systems -- and in the U.S. single-payer system favored by Mr. Edwards -- those judgments are made solely by a government agency. The available data suggests that the government allocation procedures do a somewhat worse job, as far as health outcomes are concerned, than private allocation procedures in the U.S.

As in all events, the inevitable trade-offs and ethical dilemmas cannot be wished away. Our system in the U.S. for allocating scarce resources remains imperfect. But taken as a whole, statistics show that organ access, our willingness to transplant the sickest patients, and our medical outcomes are among the best in the world. Probably superior to the single-payer systems that Mr. Edwards would have Americans emulate -- and certainly better than the facts that Mr. Edwards wants us to believe.

Dr. Gottlieb is a practicing physician and resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120001235968882563.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries
 
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