Socialized Medicine

[kjm]

HJB: The problem with tax credits for medical care, is the very same people who obtained a $70K education (and threw it away) at taxpayer expense, also don't pay taxes and are the ones whining about health care.

I would prefer that we all just pay cash for routine care, and only keep insurance policies for catastrophic problems- that would likely drive down the cost of care as then people would shop around. Since I've been well covered, I can't say I even know what my physician charges my insurance company. All I know is I pay a $25 copay.

 

[625]

Have cable TV but no digital for me and my TV is 19 inches.

So cable TV is higher on your priority list than decent food or heat? Hard to feel sorry for someone like you.

As said before in this thread numerous times: Government control of an industry is not the answer to any problems. They already steal from Social Security. What makes anyone think they will do a good job with health care given their track record running other things?

 

[Bruxley]

KJM just hit the nail on the head IMHO. I've put that very solution out many times but no traction.

The truth is the premiums paid FAR exceed the benefit receive EXCEPT when catastrophic care is needed. And the real reason people feel they need health insurance isn't so much to take care of office visits and prescriptions for common maladies or slight the moderate injuries, it is because they want protection in the event of that catastrophic incident that cost uber bucks and leaves them in financial ruin.

Average office visit by a family doc is $45-$65. Average prescription for non chronic conditions is $20-$35. Average monthly premium for heath coverage is $650/mo individual, $975 for family. Do the math.

Catastrophic coverage average is less then $100 per month. Cover NOTHING except emergency/surgical type care.

Pay cash, pressure the insurance companies to either lower rates or sell less policies, and let the better docs gain and lesser docs wilt.

The only input I'd see reasonable from the Federal Trade Commission would be that rates for self-pay and for group-pay be the same so as to prevent market players from manipulating rates to pressure self-payers into buying policies. Price gouging is already considered unfair business.

 

[Marko Kloos]

Have cable TV but no digital for me and my TV is 19 inches.

It is kind of sad that he lists the lack of digital and the small size of his TV as hardships, but I guess that's the universal measure of wealth in the country now.

 

[Marko Kloos]

The truth is the premiums paid FAR exceed the benefit receive EXCEPT when catastrophic care is needed.

And that's different from any other type of insurance how?

I pay far more in homeowner's insurance than i get back from MetLife. They only pay for catastrophic care, if the house burns down or is damaged majorly. Same with my car insurance...we pay a chunk of change every year, and never get anything out of them in return, except if we ball up our cars. Both those insurances are also necessary because out-of-pocket expenses in case of house fire or car wreck can financially ruin us, so we pay the premiums. Both insurances have deductibles and out-of-pocket limits, just like health insurance.

That's why it's called health insurance--you essentially make a bet with your health care company that you'll get sick, just like I make a bet with MetLife that my house will burn down this year. if I win, they have to eat the costs. if they win, they get to keep the cash. Insurance companies--medical, home, vehicle, whatever--are essentially high-risk betting parlors. If they win more bets than they lose, they make a ton of money in exchange for taking on the risk. If they lose (like in NOLA scenarios), then they lose enough to go broke. That's the nature of the insurance business.

So why is it that people are clamoring so incessantly for the government to take over health insurance because of the stakes involved, yet far fewer people demand government-funded and -administered vehicle or home insurance?

 

[obxned]

When in the entire history of the human race has anything been 'socialized' and still worked??

 

[pesta2]

Average office visit by a family doc is $45-$65. Average prescription for non chronic conditions is $20-$35.

Man I need to find this doctor. Around here an office visit of any kinds starts out around $100 to $150. Any prescription that I have bought has been $80 and above.

Sorry about the TV, the point I was trying to address was when other people call me out as buying other items like I-pods and laptop that all my entertainment budget allows is regular cable and a 19 inch TV not some Flat Plasma screen HD TV and HD cable service. I rather keep a few more blankets on us at night and be cold that be bored.

I guess no one here has any pre-existing conditions and doesn’t get to see first hand what our great American health care system denies care to people because the insurance companies will not pay for pre-existing conditions even though diabetes is hereditary and runs in the family.

For me I would not mind have my taxes be raised for Universal health care. If all other industrialized nations (France, German, England, Canada …) can have health care and it works for them then why won’t it work here? Yes I would not mind my taxes paying for other Americans health care whom can not afford health care. I am not the type of person that would set and say this is mine, this is mine, this is mine, I rather help out with the greater good of providing for a better future for us all.

 

[WhyteP38]

I am 34 years old with a B.S. in Architecture and should be living the American dream right? Welcome to WV! My clothes come from the Goodwill and second hand stores. Have cable TV but no digital for me and my TV is 19 inches.

My wife was born in Vietnam in 1960. Her mother married a GI, who brought them to the US in 1969. My wife spoke no English when she arrived here. Her stepfather pulled her out of school in the 6th grade because he left the military, got involved in the hippie movement, and decided they would “live off the land.” When my wife with her 6th grade education finally got out on her own, she took menial jobs until she worked her way up to $45,000/year and retired last year.

Her uncle was an officer in the ARVN. After the war ended, he was tortured, managed to escape, came to the US, and is now a successful businessman in Oregon.

My wife has Vietnamese friends who escaped communist Vietnam as boat people. En route from Vietnam to Japan, they were threatened by pirates who would typically kill the men, sell the children into slavery, and sell the women into sexual slavery. To avoid this fate, my wife’s friends smeared themselves with their own feces. It worked. They eventually reached Japan, then the US, and now they all have decent jobs.

You, on the other hand, can’t get a decent-enough job to pay for your health care, your heat, or your other bills. Apparently, that’s due to the difficulties of growing up in your native land, without war, speaking your native language, immersed in your native culture, suffering through a mere 19-inch TV with cable, and having a college degree.

I live pay check to pay check, barley can make our small apartment rent. Last month I had $6 left to my name. The last guns I bought I bought with a cashed in IRA from another company I use to work for and the rest I used to pay for food, electic, gas, renc, insurance, and water. I have had to borrow gas money from my dad just to get the 26 miles one way drive to work. Its 45 degrees in our apartment because we can not pay the electrical bill in the winter.

I can buy one gun a year with my Christmas Bonus, guess what, none this year went to Paying electricity bills.

You mentioned “guns” plural. You already have more than one gun. Assuming you have one gun sufficient for hunting so as to help feed yourself and your family, and to protect the same, what did you do with your money when you cashed in your IRA? You spent part of it on guns. Why do you need more guns? If you really care about your family and your situation, you should be applying ALL of your Christmas bonuses, IRA monies, and any other extra money to improving your situation. Buying another gun shouldn’t even enter your mind.

 

[JuanCarlos]

Catastrophic coverage average is less then $100 per month. Cover NOTHING except emergency/surgical type care.

What about chronic care? Because people do suddenly come down with things like cancer or other chronic conditions. Just curious, I honestly don't know much about these limited catastrophic plans, as I'm lucky enough to pay less than that for more comprehensive coverage.

For me I would not mind have my taxes be raised for Universal health care. If all other industrialized nations (France, German, England, Canada …) can have health care and it works for them then why won’t it work here? Yes I would not mind my taxes paying for other Americans health care whom can not afford health care. I am not the type of person that would set and say this is mine, this is mine, this is mine, I rather help out with the greater good of providing for a better future for us all.

I've heard mixed reviews on the systems in countries like Canada or the UK. Some good ones, of course, but also less than glowing reports. This does not excite me about the idea of scrapping our current system and going all-in on a socialized plan. Especially since my limited experience with government-run healthcare in this country (military and VA) has been...less than impressive. Not so much complaining about individual doctors (in case anybody takes offense...though obviously some have sucked just like in the private sector), but just the entire system. In my experience it ranges from "pretty decent" to "utter crap."


I'd probably agree with you (and disagree with some here) that something needs to be done and that our system as-is is double-plus ungood. But there are a whole host of steps that can be taken short of a universal coverage that haven't been yet, and I'd have to see all of them tried before I'd even consider foisting anything remotely resembling the VA [EDIT: which the pessimist in me suspects any universal covereage in the US would wind up being] system on the public at large.

 

[Marko Kloos]

If all other industrialized nations (France, German, England, Canada …) can have health care and it works for them then why won’t it work here?

You need to stop believing what people like Michael Moore feed you about the health care systems in those countries. I spent a quarter century under socialized medicine in Germany, and while I had to play less for a doctor out of pocket, I got to pay all the taxes necessary to finance all that "free" public health care. Think 40% payroll taxes, 17% VAT on everything you buy, gas taxes that make filling up a car in Germany three times as expensive as in the US, and so on.

There's no such thing as a free lunch. Somebody has to foot the bill, and that somebody is always the guy on the street: you. They let you go to the doctor "for free", but then they take half your paycheck and four-fifths of your gas money to finance that wonderful free care.

The public health systems in all the countries you mentioned have the same maladies: rationed health care doled out by government bureaucrats, long waiting times even for essential procedures, and a shortage of qualified medical professionals (which is what happens when you have the government telling people how much they can charge for their services.) This is an inevitable result when the system makes a commodity cost-free: the demand for it becomes unlimited. Then people try to get "their money's worth" out of the system, since they have to finance it with all those other taxes anyway.

It's like the government paying everyone's grocery bill and just taking a 10% grocery tax out of everyone's paycheck...how do you think that kind of system would affect consumer behavior? People would go to the store and load up as much as they can every week, whether they need it or not, because they want to make sure they "get their share" out of the system. And if that idea strikes you as unworkable with groceries, what makes you think it'll work with health care?

 

[The Tourist]

There's no such thing as a free lunch.

It goes beyond that. I'm an American, and I want to live that free lifestyle.

I do not want to petition my government for every freedom or privilege I choose. I was part of the group that got Wisconsin's helmet law repealled. Do you think the English government would let me do something other than gulp pabulum from the nanny state?

The lefties always chant, "France has healthcare." However, are you willing to live as a Frenchman to get it?

 

[Bruxley]

Three things, first, given the track record of the Fed, why in the world would anyone still think that it is capable of performing the task of providing this?

Second, there is marked difference between wants, needs, and rights. Just wanting something or needing something doesn't mean you have a right to it. It especially doesn't mean that there is right to force others to provide it. This is an entitlement mentality. Getting your needs met, and wants fulfilled are your responsibility, NOT your right.

Last, the Fed is looked to FAR too much to solve problems. That should be the last, not the first place to look. Problems need to be addressed within the scope they influence. Few things are as personal and private as your health. Far and away from a national concern or threat. Should an epidemic occur that effects the nation that's another animal but scope of personal health problems doesn't expand past one's family, friends, and possibly community. It shouldn't be addressed past it's scope.

The morbid obesity of the Fed is a direct consequence of misapplying it to become a provider for individuals instead of the organ of protection it was intended and be. The Fed should be getting out of the way of your prosperity, not providing it to you.

If you want to feed a hungry homeless family, or donate money to a private clinic then go ahead. In fact, the people that identify themselves as conservative give more then those that identify as liberal. But those that identify themselves as liberal promote pubic programs such as health care more then those that identify themselves as conservative. It's not courageous or noble to support giving other peoples money. It's wrong to think that power should exist. To enlist the power of the Federal Government to force it has time and time again proven counterproductive.

 

[The Tourist]

Last, the Fed is looked to FAR too much to solve problems.

What the lefties keep failing to grasp is that the government seldoms stops passing restrictions. As an initial bill or law, we might indeed get healthcare "like England has."

However, the busy little bees won't stop there. Last year there was a discussion in government if the use of tobacco should be under the FDA.

As much as I dislike cigarette smoke, that action would pretty stop smoking, except in dirty little speak-easies.

There might be firm restrictions on salt. Your healthcare might have a body fat restriction. You might have to wear a helmet. As in care to veterans in Madison, you might be issued a "color." You could only see a doctor on a "ruby day."

Oh, and I'd like to be there when the leftie gets his first property tax increase initiated by "Uncle Sam's Drive-Thru Blood Letting."

 

[BoringAccountant]

pesta...

You have written a unique story-line for why you and your family are the poster children for socialized healthcare...but why dont you just move to another area? I live in MD/PA...an hour or two from WV, move to this area, start using that architect degree and make something you can be proud of and pass on to your children. If you dont have research at home, spend an extra half hour a day sending your resumes to jobs in this area or in VA.

I suspect you dont want to because you are content with living in WV, you are content being there, if not you would have moved already.

I cannot fathom being in your situation (assuming all of its true, I mean cmon this is the internet, its easy to exagerrate a good or bad situation), if I was, I would do whatever it took to make myself and my family have the best possible life.

Man-up a little and make something work, otherwise, dont blame me or the society in which we live, its not my fault

 

[pesta2]

I suspect you don’t want to because you are content with living in WV, you are content being there, if not you would have moved already.

There are reasons why I like WV and reason I don’t. The economy and job availability or horrible here but natural Beauty and outdoor activities are wonderful. Certain things I can not phantom here is that the cost of living and rent in Morgantown in now higher than Pittsburgh.

Main reason we are still here is my Mother is 60 and has advance Alzheimer’s so the family has to stick together to help take care of her.My mother is diabetic to, so that is a pre-existing condition. Soon she will be put in a nursing home and because of our health care system my father will lose everything he has ever worked for to pay for her care just as my Grandfather did for my grandmother that died of Alzheimer’s. My Grandfather worked in the Coal Mines, got Black lung from it, severely injured in the mines and when he died, he died penniless because everything he ever worked for went to the health care system for her! My Dad is already planning on moving in with my Sister and her Husband.

One other person we take care of is my Mother’s brother who also has Parkinson's Disease. But he was in the Airforce so he goes to the VA for help.

So now there are two loved ones that every and I mean everything they ever have I worked for is now or will be in the hands of the Health Care system and someone got rich from it, it is just wrong!

So you want to see why I have such a bad taste for our Heath Care System.

By the way what Part of MD you at? I work out on I-68, not to far from MD.

 

[Marko Kloos]

Soon she will be put in a nursing home and because of our health care system my father will lose everything he has ever worked for to pay for her care just as my Grandfather did for my grandmother that dies of Alzheimer’s.

No, not "because of our health care system", but because of your family's decision to put her in a nursing home. Nursing and hospice care is extremely expensive in any health system you care to name, because of the level and amount of care required. What about home care? Too labor-intensive? Gotta make a living somehow? If you can't provide the time to care for your mom among all of your family members, and assign that task to someone else, how is it unjust for them to ask money for their time and labor?

But, no, it's all the evil health insurance fat cats, who are just standing by to steal your parents' savings and get rich from it. So why play into their pockets? Do you make more in a year than your mother's care would cost? If not, why not quit your job and have your parents pay you for the task, instead of taking your mom to a nursing home? I'm sure you will only let them pay you the bare minimum necessary, so their money stretches further, right? In fact, why have them pay you at all?

You're blaming our health care system for the fact that your mother's health care costs are not distributed across the population? You find it unjust that you don't get tens of thousands of dollars worth of nursing care for free?

Look, your family health issues are deplorable, but they do not entitle you to a single red cent out of your neighbor's pocket, unless they give it to you willingly. All I'm reading is, "I can't afford it, so why don't I get it for free?" You fail to understand that when you claim a right to healthcare, you automatically claim the right to the time of the people who have to pay for and provide that healthcare. How can you have a right to enslave anyone, no matter how dire your need?

 

[BoringAccountant]

pesta...

I am sorry to hear that about your mother, I really am.

I live in PA and work in MD, not close to there by any means, but I think its only an hour or two from here.

My point is, I understand you guys have it rough and can't "live the American Dream", but to the same token, you can't expect or assume it is deserved for people who dont take care of themselves and for people who abuse the system to have this socialized healthcare. If I could be guaranteed that only people like yourself or your family would use it, I would be in favor of it to some degree, instead rather I would argue that this system would be abused by everyone that comes into contact with it. Like Marko saud, the idea I pay into it therefore I want the greatest out of it is all too true.

 

[pesta2]

If not, why not quit your job and have your parents pay you for the task, instead of taking your mom to a nursing home?

Then I wouldn't have health insurance.

 

[pesta2]

What about home care? Too labor-intensive?

Every take care of an Alzheimer’s patient? We have, Mom had to go to my Grandparents every day for the first 5 years to take care of my grandmother till she could not do it anymore once my grandmother broke her hip and was bedridden. Then that is when she went to the nursing home. Alzheimer’s patents is a 24 7 task! Have you even lived with one? She had it for 10 years. They get up at all ours of the night. Imagine a 1 month old that can walk around, pick up things. Nursing home is much cheaper than a live in Nurse.

When my Dad was out of work from the Mines he stopped taking his high blood pressure medicine so my mother could afford expensive prescription diabetes medicine. Show my how that is far.

 

[JuanCarlos]

Then I wouldn't have health insurance.

That's downright zingworthy.

Also, Marko, you're assuming a few things. One, that pesta makes less in a year than the care will cost (well, not assumed but asked in a slightly presumptuous manner). Two, that even if this is the case that pesta is in any way qualified or able to provide the care needed. Three, that this is in any way an efficient use of labor; I'm pretty sure that most elder-care environments don't have a 1:1 ratio of caregivers to patients/residents, as it's not really needed. Thus it's more efficient and beneficial to society as a whole to find another way to provide this care, other than pulling pesta out of the workforce entirely to provide it.

Then there's this...

In fact, why have them pay you at all?

Because he needs to support himself and a family? Because when his mother dies having "caring for my mother" as his job experience for the last decade or two won't necessarily further his career? I assume he intends to outlive his mother. Oh, and that whole health insurance thing.

We benefit quite a bit from things like specialization of labor. I'm not thinking that rolling the clock back a couple/few centuries is the answer to our health care issues.