So the bandit has the drop on you, so what

Lack of will on the criminals part can lead to hesitation, and I am of the opinion that most, but certainly not all, armed criminals want to get away with their crime without having a murder rap to deal with, so there will more than likely be some hesitation on their part.
True, that's why if somebody holds me up that says, "Look, I'm sorry, but I gotta have your wallet," I'm likely figuring it's one of those guys that's been out of work for the last few years, and I'm probably giving it up without a fight. Not that what he's doing is right of course, but I seriously doubt he wants to shoot me. On the other hand if it's a punk with a Mr. T starter set, holding his gun sideways, I'm going to figure a total lack of conscience, and I'm definitely looking for the opportunity to draw and fire, rather than simply laying down and dying, which I figure is on his mind.
 
They concluded that it was easily possible to draw and fire (from a tucked-in-the-waistband position) a handgun in about 0.34 seconds and as fast as 0.20 seconds

Wow, most people can't move their trigger finger on a mouse button that fast, much less get all those arm muscles moving to draw from concealment and fire.

What kind of times do you get on a reaction speed test?

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/

The world record for fast draw is .207, and that's clearing a speed holster (not concealed) with your hand just above the gun and popping a blank.

These guys with a gun already in their hand took longer than your .34 from concealment:

http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2011/06/13/reaction-time-police-shooting-study/
 
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45 Auto,

Those are reaction times (moving from a signal), while the Force Science experiments dealt with action times (moving, not from a signal). Their research shows that if you are acting and the BG has to react to your movement, you get the benefit of the reactionary time delay even if/though the other person appears to hold all the cards.

Put more simply: he's holding you at gunpoint because he wants to force you to do something; he does not intend to shoot you right this moment. That means that if you act quickly and decisively, you can get ahead of his ability to react. That's especially true if he hasn't yet made the decision to shoot, but it's also true even if he has decided to shoot if you don't comply, because he has to process the fact that you're not complying while all you have to do is move.

Sometimes. (But don't bet your life on it unless your life is already on the table...)

pax
 
kraigwy
So the bandit has the drop on you, so what

Real world... Not open carrying; probably under a shirt; IWB; under a jacket; or in a pocket holster. If you're lucky, you might be carrying in a quick draw retention holster like a Fobus. Then you might have a chance and even then it is a slim chance.

We're not talking about who's faster on the draw. The BG already has his gun out and likely aimed at you. As I'd posted in another thread, you would have a better chance (if you are trained) at disarming the BG than drawing on him.
 
Back in the early 70s there was a writer, I believe his name was Marshall. He was a retired NYPD Officer. I don't know his record but he was involved in numerous shoot outs.

His advice, backed up by personal experience, was do not attempt to draw unless they were trying to force you into the cooler. At that time there had been a number of robberys were the victums were placed in the "stores" cooler and executed.

His point was, unless you are in immediate fear for your life or your loved ones, donot attempt to draw.

If you are in fear, then distractions and the other deceptions are good points. My CCW instructors, walking to car thief confronts and demands keys, was drop your keys and then draw.
 
live coward dead hero

best is to put a mental image of him in your mind and wait for a chance of him leaving then turn the tables but but not in the back
 
This is a good place to throw this out again. This was from a radio show around 1960 entitled "Yours truly, Johnny Dollar." Johnny Dollar was a freelance insurance investigator and was the man with the "action packed expense account."

The scene was when the bad guy was corner by Dollar and the local sheriff who outdrew the bad guy.
"Wow, I've never seen a draw that fast except on television."
"That's where I learned it."
 
This data seems to make Kraig's point perfectly:
Myth: You are more likely to be injured or killed using a gun for self-defense
Fact: You are far more likely to survive a violent assault if you defend yourself with a gun. In episodes where a robbery victim was injured, the injury/defense rates were:119
Resisting with a gun 6%
Did nothing at all 25%
Resisted with a knife 40%
Non-violent resistance 45%

From:
http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.0/GunFacts5-0-screen.pdf
 
I am a firm believer, that if someone has a gun pointed at you, and you are carrying, the advantage is in your court. I think you can draw and fire before the bandit can shoot his gun he already has out.

kraigwy, funny that you mention such a test given that in a similar test, the Tueller Drill, is often run in such a manner and the person drawing and firing often loses against a person with a knife who has to run 21 feet.

I would disagree with you completely that a bad guy with his gun pointed at you and your gun holstered means that the advantage is in your court. In fact, what you describe definitely indicates that the advantage is not in your court. You describe waiting until an opportunity presents itself to respond, such as the bad guy getting distracted. It is at that point that you may gain an advantage, not before. If you had the advantage the whole time, then you would not need to be waiting for an opportunity to respond. You are not responding before the opportunity because the bad guy has the advantage.

What you are describing, however, is responding smartly. Basically, you are talking about complying and/or not fighting until which time there is an opportunity to respond that is more to your advantage.

This data seems to make Kraig's point perfectly:
The data might support the point, except nobody seems to be able to actually find the source for the data. Can you? As near as I can ascertain, it is completely fabricated. Gunfacts cites a study by the British Home Office for the data. The BHO sight has countless reports posted on it. They are all titled, dated, and many (most?) have authors. In other words, they can be searched for and found. Many of the reports deal specifically with crime and self defense. None that I can find have the actual data described. Strangely, you would think the folks at Gunfacts would provide a proper citation for the information. They do for many other subjects in Gunfacts, but not for this claim. You have to wonder why they don't provide a proper citation for the information and that the information provided doesn't seem to match any study from the BHO's website, unless the information isn't valid.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=474084&highlight=gunfacts
 
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DNS said:
The data might support the point, except nobody seems to be able to actually find the source for the data. Can you? As near as I can ascertain, it is completely fabricated.

Besides which, even if the data were true, it's impossible to parse the generic "survive violent assault" from the very specific "draw on someone who already has a gun pointed at you", unless someone can find the original raw data describing the incidents.

The main discussion in the thread so far (including my own previous post) seems to be of a slightly different bend than the OP. Whether or not we believe that it's possible, or even likely, to successfully draw without getting shot, the assertion that "the advantage is in your court" is not even supported by the OP, as you point out.
 
I can't believe it took 27 posts for someone to mention this. We don't shoot death-rays.
If someone has a gun pointed at me I'm probably not going to draw.

The bad guy doesn't have a death-ray either. If he does shoot you, attack with all you've got. Consider yourself invincible for 10 seconds. You might lose, but make sure he loses worse.
 
DNS,

The Tueller drill is a different thing, because the runner (with the simulated knife) is the one who is acting and the shooter the one who is reacting to the other person's movement.

The person who reacts is usually the person who loses, because action takes less time than reaction.

pax
 
Plenty of us have tried it with airsoft guns actually shooting each other, which is IMHO, a much better "test" of the actual scenario than trying to shoot downrange at paper targets. Two people facing each other, one drawn and aimed, one not, is the situation you're trying to prove. Why have them shooting downrange, at paper?

Distractions and the like are one thing. Someone pointing a gun at you and paying attention to you is quite another. I've done it, I've watched others do it, I've never seen the defender NOT get shot. Not one single time. Ever.

I'm sure it can happen. Anything can happen. But I'm waiting for a really good reason and as solid of a distraction as I can get.

It takes me 1.5 seconds to draw and shoot from a concealed condition. He has to REact to my ACT. How that differs from slapping a button when a light comes on, which seems to me just like pulling a trigger when someone moves fast, is beyond me.

Even if it were different, normal reactions are 1/4 second or less, what's going to happen that adds a full 1.25 seconds to his time? Even if he does take 1.5 seconds, what happens? We shoot each other at the same time. That doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

If we wanna talk distractions, effective methods for concealing a draw, that's one thing. Having the advantage in your court when your gun is holstered and his is not, is quite another.
 
We've reached 50 post, no one has mentioned "trying it" as I suggested.

I used to get to try it.

The POs in training lost every time.

The PO running the firearm training used to enjoy doing the demo after a few days of martial arts type training had occurred.

Some really believed they could beat a trigger finger on a gun already aimed at them.

Good thing it was wax and they hard riot gear on (and yes, i used to get shot to prove it was safe).
 
I said I wasn’t going to comment unless responding to someone who actually tried “drawing while covered” but we’ve seen to have lost track of what I’m saying.

We’ve all seen “gun fights” on TV, where Mat Dillon steps out in the street, stands there all quite and calm until the bandit draws then Marshal Dillon out draws him.

We all know, or should know, that isn’t the way it happens. When someone pulls a gun in a robbery or such, there is a lot of screaming and jumping around. One screaming, “Give me your wallet, don’t move” etc etc. The Victim is yelling “don’t shoot, don’t shoot” or whatever, you get the ideal.

The bandit expects the victim to comply, the victim expects the bandit to shoot. Either way, both are waiting for something to happen. No one is expecting the victim to draw.

Think about your time on the range. How many times have you shot while talking? I don’t mean start a sentence, stop a second to shoot, and then finish the shooting. I’m talking about talking and shooting.

If you’re talking, you’re not shooting, if your shooting, you’re not talking. Same with breathing, you always stop breathing while pulling the trigger, it’s a natural act. Something you don’t really have to train yourself to do.

You need to get the bandit to talk, (easy to do). The way I demonstrate this is to have the student point at the target, I tell him as soon as he sees me start to draw to fire. Then I ask him tell me what he’s going to do to make sure he understands what is going to happen. He starts to reply and I shoot, simple, works ever time even though he knows I have a gun and I’m going to draw and shoot. I get him every time.

Now as to air soft and paint ball guns ‘n such. I don’t use them simply because I never seen one that matches my 642 and will fit in my pocket. They just don’t match my method of carry.

As to, “drawing from concealed. Yap, I agree it’s slow. Concealed is concealed, for most it requires pulling up your shirt or jacket to get to the gun. Then you have to get the gun out without snagging.

Again, that’s not how I carry. I pocket carry. I’ve always been sloppy, walking around with my hands in my pocket. Even when I was in the army I was always in trouble for my “air force gloves”.

Don’t know if anyone remembers but a while back I posted a picture of a sniper school I was teaching. In the picture I was in uniform, standing behind a spotting scope with my hands in my pocket. There were several comments about not being a professional infantry officer, setting a bad example and such.

I always have, bad habit or not, I still do it, and that’s the pocket I carry my 642. I tried it last week when thinking about another topic. Using a shot timer it took me .43 seconds to get the shot off. Yeah I use one hand; if you’ve read many of my post you’ll know I’m a proponent of one hand pistol/revolver use.

If the bandit is talking it’s going to take him a lot longer the .43 seconds to realize I’m drawing, then to stop talking and fire.

Below is a picture of me with my granddaughter taken a couple years ago, notice my hand in my pocket, guess where my 642 is.

Kianna_and_Grandpa_1_.jpg
 
Kraig,

The situation you'd described is different than having a BG in bad breath range pointing the gun at the GG where the GG is carrying. In this kind of situation it is enormously more viable to attempt a disarm (IF one is trained) than to attempt a draw from a concealed carrying position (regardless if one is trained).

The scenario you'd described has the BG waving his gun around making demands from a further distance. Under this situation, it would be easier to seek cover and draw or possibly even just draw (maybe). In either case, one has to use their heads for a moment.

I guess distance is the primary variable.
 
But I point out again, as I did in post 26, that it's not just a matter of "who shoots first", unless you're pocket carrying a phaser.

What if I can fire a shot in .43 seconds and it takes the BG 3/4 second? or 1 second.

It's not a "Ha, ha, cool man, you got me, I give." scenario. There's still a very, very high probability of your getting shot.

Plus, it's indisputable that MOST armed robberies end without people getting killed. If you choose to draw and shoot without some reasonable evidence that it's the best choice, you are turning this into an almost guaranteed shoot-out. Kind of like this scenario

Maybe, MAYBE, you get lucky and get off an instantly incapacitating shot. More likely, you don't. That means he's shooting back, that means you are likely to get shot when you otherwise wouldn't have been.

"Everybody in the cooler and get on your knees!" is one thing.

"Yo! Give me da money an nobody gets hurt!" is quite another.
 
The situation you'd described is different than having a BG in bad breath range pointing the gun at the GG where the GG is carrying.

That Sir, is true. We've trained extensively on disarming a bandit at arm's lenght, but that's a different topic.

Not sure if I'm a good enogh with the written word to describe those tactics, maybe I'll find a nerdy kid to show me how to make videos and I can address the topic of "bad breath distance".
 
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