So the bandit has the drop on you, so what

Someone has to be honest about their abilities even with a lot of practice. In my case I'd have let the BG smoke a cigarette while I drew. My reaction time would not be very good against someone younger. For me heightened awareness is my best defense. To be truthful, once "most" folks had a gun drawn on me I'd be in a really bad spot.
 
I am a firm believer, that if someone has a gun pointed at you, and you are carrying, the advantage is in your court. I think you can draw and fire before the bandit can shoot his gun he already has out.
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Maybe in fantasy land.

An already nervous criminal with a finger on the trigger has you beat.

You are not going to make any large movements before that finger can move.

Many years ago I used to help demonstrate for police training.

The students dressed in riot gear for protection, and then tried to get the drop on me pointing a gun with wax bullets and only primers at them (simunition was way in the future).

It took very few attempts for them to quickly learn it was not going to work (and I was pretty far from any type of fast guy then).

It did take more with a supposedly 'trained' fighter.
He was second after I popped his classmate twice.

He never got a foot more than a few inches off the floor, or a hand more than halfway to me.

Keep in mind there is not a lot of a penalty for firing early.
 
Yikes, forget about outdrawing anyone on my part. My best was 223. Not going to state my average or worst, but I will leave the fast draw to the young kids. I guess I am just a slow old fart. Better to be aware before something happens than to try and outdraw someone with the a gun to my head.
 
I've never done the test described in the OP but I have done a test with air soft guns just as described, where one actor must draw and shoot before the other pulls the trigger.

Distractions and whatnot are one thing but if the BG is standing there alert and ready to react, most people are screwed. Capital SCREWED.

From my typical concealment, I can draw and point shoot in about 1.5 seconds. Maybe close to 1.0 on a really good day. I'm not a trained assassin but neither are 95% of CCWers.

Besides that, until I carry a phaser, there's a lot more to worry about than whether I can pull the trigger FIRST. FIRST better be "only" or I'm in trouble anyway.
 
Bill Jordan and Jelly Bryce could draw and fire faster than the reaction time of most folks. I cannot.
It is one thing to do with a holster not concealed and another when the handgun is concealed. I personally am going to have to see it before I will believe that it can be done from a covered gun.

But suppose you could draw faster than the BG reaction time. Your shot may not stop him from shooting you.

Unless one firmly believes that the BG is going to shoot you anyway, I think it is very foolish to try to draw and beat him and not get shot. For what? A few or a hundred dollars???

Jerry
 
I don't think the bandit can react that fast.
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There's a big difference between "can" react and "will" react.

Average human reaction time is around .25ish, with some folks faster, some slower. You're not going to beat that from concealment against an individual willing to pull the trigger. Been there, done that with sims.

However, when it comes down to it, we probably won't have to, as fights are nothing more than a test of will. Lack of will on the criminals part can lead to hesitation, and I am of the opinion that most, but certainly not all, armed criminals want to get away with their crime without having a murder rap to deal with, so there will more than likely be some hesitation on their part. You see it all the time in crime videos.

Criminal lack of will that creates hesitation, combined with deception or distraction (such as you mention) and masking some of the draw stroke, can all buy you more time and enable you to get off a shot, but there's no guarantee. There never is.

IMO, since there is NO guarantee that you won't be shot and killed despite being compliant, you might as well fight as if your life depended on it, because it probably does.

Do what you think is best.
 
It's pointless arguing over who's going to get a shot off first. Good guy's a 1/4 second faster, bad guy's a 1/4 second faster, who cares? It's not a phaser, the other guy's not going to just disappear into thin air. Unless one of you hits the CNS, (unlikely) there's no reason both of you can't still shoot. You can be half a second faster, drill him through the heart, and he can still kill you.

With cover, the right mindset, a distracted BG, luck, etc., your chances would increase. Someone who believes in managing risk would try to determine how that balances against the risk of compliance. Others would fight back on principle, refusing to let the crook have control of the situation. I can understand either point of view.
 
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But suppose you could draw faster than the BG reaction time. Your shot may not stop him from shooting you.
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I can't believe it took 27 posts for someone to mention this. We don't shoot death-rays.
If someone has a gun pointed at me I'm probably not going to draw.
 
this totally depends on the two people in the standoff. I'm a bad guy. I got a gun in your belly. I say don't move. suddenly you move. since I'm not some punk hood rat that borrowed his momma's pocket pistol, I'm former military and all that, I'm probably going to shoot and kill eddy noodlehead who never trained a moment, but read that he's faster than an armed hood.

If I go armed, some hood rat points a gun at me, tells me not to move, I see that his firearm isn't really aimed at me, hammer is down, he doesn't look as if he's ready to do the job, I'm going to wait for a good moment, then snap my gun out and put as many rounds in him as I can.

a punk is a punk is a punk. good guy or bad guy, the one who dies is almost certain to be the one who has no training, no matter who had the drop on who.
 
The Force Science Institute in Minnesota has already run tests regarding this subject. The result was that it's not terribly hard to beat an officer's drawn gun.

They concluded that it was easily possible to draw and fire (from a tucked-in-the-waistband position) a handgun in about 0.34 seconds and as fast as 0.20 seconds, IIRC the stats. Typical reaction time for people is about 0.50-0.75 seconds.

Causes for the delay in response to the suspect's movements, they believe, include the need to confirm justification to fire in their decision making, disbelief that the subject would attempt to resist at gunpoint and, of course, deciding if they should fire at all.

I would never want to bet my life that my speed at drawing would be faster than someone's ability to react. But the comment that it's best to act when the aggressor is talking is sound advice since they have to shift gears mentally from speaking to processing the visual input.

This all gets back to interrupting someone's OODA loop. If you can introduce one or more unexpected variables into the situation it complicates the person's response time. For instance, dropping your wallet at the person's feet instead of handing it over presents a multiple decision for them - pick it up, leave it, make you do it or shoot you. While they're initially processing what to do (or initiating "the wrong choice") you act while they're distracted.

One Big Caveat:
Most of us have a natural inhibition against using deadly force. Many people are ingrained with the idea of "fair play" and/or "doing all the right things" and may have trouble suppressing those concepts in order to act swiftly and without hesitation.

But not so for someone who is a violent killer. Especially one who thinks he has nothing to lose by murdering you. He may lack any kind of social or legal inhibitions against killing or maiming people. In this case, his reaction time is likely to be much faster. His only decision tree might be kill you now or kill you later -- but your movement simplified the decision for him.
 
Not getting shot, even if you shoot first

Thats one of the main points of the Mozambique Drill (two to the chest one to the head in +/- 1.5 seconds). I'm not saying even the best can pull it off without getting shot, I'm just saying...

Actually, unless you're very good and even if you are very good; it might not be smart to try and draw. Especially, if it was something like an armed robbery where they were just going to take the money and leave.

No one I've ever seen is as fast from their concealment holster as they are from a belt holster either. Use your range timers and see, half a second goes by fast. Now imagine a loaded gun is pointed at you and the slightest fumble you get shot. I don't like the odds.
 
I believe the average guy/gal can shoot an adversary already pointing a gun at them. Speed however is not the major factor in pulling it off.
 
Verrrrrrrrrrry intresting.
While i value life i have always been told by my daddy if your in my sights you are not a person but a target to destroy.
 
If I believed that the bad guy was going to shoot me, yes I would try something. My CC is not set up for a fast draw, nor do I really want it to be. Playing for a slight distraction or a pointing of his gun away from me before I chose to draw would be good. The down side of "I can draw and shoot faster than he can shoot" to me, is if you are wrong you get shot, and possible even if you are right you get shot. I would be thinking more along the lines of getting a chance to knock him off balance and then move or draw, I have no intention of EVER matching reactions times in a fair fight. Fair gunfights suck!!
 
We've all thought about this, but all the drills and testing can't replicate the actuality of an amped-up criminal doing a robbery and an armed victim having been caught pants down. So many variables and possible outcomes.

I regularly practice the wimpy, let me get my wallet routine, weak hand up and palm out in supplication, turned a little to my left to present a profile in lieu of a frontal; my gun rides at about 7:30 (i'm a lefty) and it really looks like i'm going for my wallet in my back pocket (at least in a mirror). For me it isn't about speed so much as setting up the illusion of meek compliance, so that when the gun comes out and fires from my hip, it's completely unexpected - ie., a the BG is distracted, sees my empty weak hand, and is expecting the wallet to come up in the other. Hopefully it delays his recognition of danger until after the first couple shots are already in him and i'm moving the other way fast, still firing.

I have no idea if it would work. I hope i never have to find out. But i'd sure feel stupid dying with my gun still in its holster.

And how much does the math change if your wife and/or kids are with you when you are accosted, multiplying the potential destruction of the BGs bullets?
 
I have seen it done in movies 100 times (at least) but that certainly does not mean that I would ever attempt to outdraw and shoot someone whom already has me at gun point. I suppose there is a place and a time for everything, but logic is not on your side.
 
The answer is situationally dependent. We have to realize that odds are not really in our favor; that there are things we might do to improve the odds; and that the best bet might be to hand over a wallet.

That said, a few different scenarios leap to mind. I suspect many here have seen these videos.

1) Guys get mugged in entryway to apartment building; one of the victims tries to wrestle the gun away, takes several bullets in the abdomen, and I think he died later.

2) Guy tries to stop a shooter on a subway platform, but can't get traction in his cowboy boots from the looks of it. Slips, falls, gets shot.

OTOH...

3) Lawyer is attacked outside courthouse by disgruntled former client. Lawyer bobs, weaves, runs around tree. He gets hit several times, but not killed or crippled. Bystanders physically take shooter down.

On the non-video side, as I've mentioned before, I know a guy who has stopped people from shooting him on multiple occasions, but he acted when he saw them go for the draw.

From my perspective, if somebody flashes a gun at me, my response will very likely be different than if that person is already holding a gun on me. Unless, of course, I get a very bad vibe from him, in which case, if I think I'm going down anyway, I'm going down fighting.
 
Situtional Awareness

You can do much to greatly reduce the possibility of getting caught with your guard down through situational awareness. It's as simple as that, you must know who is around you at all times and assess those who could pose a threat. If you genuinely believe a specific individual could be a threat. Casually get your gun in your hand but keep it out of view. Should you be right, you have more than a fighting chance of winning.
 
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