So, are you confident with the 9x19 for CCW?
- Thread starter ken613
- Start date
First of all, no amount of expansion or diameter (or anything else for that matter) can compensate for poor shot placement. Secondly, in some cases a smaller diameter wound can be more dangerous than a large one. For example, in a heart shot, a smaller diameter hole is more likely to cause a dangerous condition known as a cardiac tampanode (basically a buildup of fluid inside the perichardium) than a large one because the perichardium is more likely to be able to seal a small hole than a large one. Finally, factors such as the 9mm's typically lighter recoil and thusly easier shot placement as well as the 9mm's typically higher capacity and thusly greater ability to deliver multiple wounds must be taken into account.
9mm penetration vs .45acp penetration
Maybe I'm confused here...
I had thought that light, fast bullets were better at penetrating thin, semi-rigid barriers such as sheet metal, or thin weaves such as kevlar, but that slower, heavier bullets were better for penetration of more fluid media such as flesh and fat, unless the lighter bullets were travelling really fast.
I'd have sworn I've seen gelatin tests, theboxotruth.com tests, and some light armor penetration tests that bore this argument out. IE given similar bullet construction the 9mm may have some advantage, .40 does have an advantage, and .357SIG has a large advantage over the .45acp for penetrating a truck door or thin kevlar; wound channels in media more similar to flesh often give the advantage to the .45acp, with penetration similar to that of the .357SIG (which is much, much faster).
I'd have also sworn I saw some tests that showed that due to fragmentation, the super light and super fast 5.56mm would go through a light barrier just fine, but then come apart and make a nasty, but relatively shallow wound in tissue. More than enough to be lethal, but with less actual overpenetration than one gets from most SD handgun calibers.
Last, I was positive that in the rifle and hunting forums, the general rule is that heavier bullets go deeper, but lighter bullets make a slightly wider, shallower wound channel - with more propensity for blood-shotting the meat around the area the round penetrates.
But I could have misunderstood all those things.
Any ballistics gurus that can straighten this out for me?
Note: I think Nnobby45 makes a very good point about discussing bullet construction in addition to caliber.
Maybe I'm confused here...
I had thought that light, fast bullets were better at penetrating thin, semi-rigid barriers such as sheet metal, or thin weaves such as kevlar, but that slower, heavier bullets were better for penetration of more fluid media such as flesh and fat, unless the lighter bullets were travelling really fast.
I'd have sworn I've seen gelatin tests, theboxotruth.com tests, and some light armor penetration tests that bore this argument out. IE given similar bullet construction the 9mm may have some advantage, .40 does have an advantage, and .357SIG has a large advantage over the .45acp for penetrating a truck door or thin kevlar; wound channels in media more similar to flesh often give the advantage to the .45acp, with penetration similar to that of the .357SIG (which is much, much faster).
I'd have also sworn I saw some tests that showed that due to fragmentation, the super light and super fast 5.56mm would go through a light barrier just fine, but then come apart and make a nasty, but relatively shallow wound in tissue. More than enough to be lethal, but with less actual overpenetration than one gets from most SD handgun calibers.
Last, I was positive that in the rifle and hunting forums, the general rule is that heavier bullets go deeper, but lighter bullets make a slightly wider, shallower wound channel - with more propensity for blood-shotting the meat around the area the round penetrates.
But I could have misunderstood all those things.
Any ballistics gurus that can straighten this out for me?
Note: I think Nnobby45 makes a very good point about discussing bullet construction in addition to caliber.
I just Chronograph tested four of my handguns, just so see how much energy (in ft/lbs) each of them can deliver.
Gun: CZ 75 D Compact PCR 9mm (3.9 inch barrel) Ammo: Cor Bon PowR’Ball 100 gr 9mm+P. Kinetic energy- 411 ft/lbs
Gun: Kahr MK40 (3 inch barrel) Ammo: Cor Bon PowR’Ball .40 S&W 135 gr. Kinetic energy- 409 ft/lbs
Gun: Smith & Wesson 340 M&P (1.87 inch barrel) Ammo: Cor Bon DPX .357 Magnum 125 gr. Kinetic energy- 345 ft lbs
Gun: Para Ordnance Carry 45 (3 inch barrel) Ammo: Cor Bon PowR’Ball .45 ACP +P 165 gr Kinetic energy- 412 ft/lbs And with standard .45 ACP MagTech 180gr. Kinetic energy- 285 ft lbs
While kinetic energy is but just one piece of the ballistics puzzle, it’s still true that more is better than less when it comes to energy delivered on a target. As you can see, the “little” 9mm round is a match for any of my supposedly harder hitting gun/ammo combinations. Admittedly it was fired from a 0.9 inch longer barrel, but I still think it shows that the proper 9mm round (preferably a +P) is very capable. Also worth noting, is how poorly a standard .45 ACP round performs when fired form a compact 45 auto pistol . I’m sure that even it’s low (285 ft.lb) performance is probably more than adequate in a self defense scenario, it’s none the less not equal to the myth that surrounds .45 ACP rounds. (from a 5 inch barrel, it’d certainly do better, but so would the others)
I’m no sure if that helps shed any light on your 9mm question.
Gun: CZ 75 D Compact PCR 9mm (3.9 inch barrel) Ammo: Cor Bon PowR’Ball 100 gr 9mm+P. Kinetic energy- 411 ft/lbs
Gun: Kahr MK40 (3 inch barrel) Ammo: Cor Bon PowR’Ball .40 S&W 135 gr. Kinetic energy- 409 ft/lbs
Gun: Smith & Wesson 340 M&P (1.87 inch barrel) Ammo: Cor Bon DPX .357 Magnum 125 gr. Kinetic energy- 345 ft lbs
Gun: Para Ordnance Carry 45 (3 inch barrel) Ammo: Cor Bon PowR’Ball .45 ACP +P 165 gr Kinetic energy- 412 ft/lbs And with standard .45 ACP MagTech 180gr. Kinetic energy- 285 ft lbs
While kinetic energy is but just one piece of the ballistics puzzle, it’s still true that more is better than less when it comes to energy delivered on a target. As you can see, the “little” 9mm round is a match for any of my supposedly harder hitting gun/ammo combinations. Admittedly it was fired from a 0.9 inch longer barrel, but I still think it shows that the proper 9mm round (preferably a +P) is very capable. Also worth noting, is how poorly a standard .45 ACP round performs when fired form a compact 45 auto pistol . I’m sure that even it’s low (285 ft.lb) performance is probably more than adequate in a self defense scenario, it’s none the less not equal to the myth that surrounds .45 ACP rounds. (from a 5 inch barrel, it’d certainly do better, but so would the others)
I’m no sure if that helps shed any light on your 9mm question.
Atticus Thraxx
New member
Simple answer....yes. If you try and do bad things to me and I start shooting you with any of my 9x19s', you will at the very least stop doing bad things and quite possibly die. Doesn't really take a whole lot of long winded discussion does it?
My 2 cents
I do not own any nines at the moment. My constant carry gun is a Smith 340pd stoked with my handloads that give 1150fps to a Hornady 125gr. XTP. That is about equal to a "decent" 9mm SD load and I feel reasonably safe with it on a daily basis. So I guess my anwer is yes I would be confident with a semi 9mm with a higher cap. Two caveats to that; just about a month ago I pulled into a parking space at WalMart that apparently someone else wanted, the man got out of his car and began to curse at me, I am 5'9" 185lb. and disabled, and no it was not a disabled space, I can still walk some. The agrieved party was about 6'8" and over 400lb. He approached me in a very threataning manner, at that moment I felt somewhat undergunned. Thank God the situation deescelated and nothing happened but I was wishing for "more gun" at the time. I am not sure a light HP even at high speed would have given the penetration needed to stop the threat with a center mass shot. And in this thread the critical factor is not if they die, it is if they STOP IMMEDIATLY. Nonetheless, my 340 will continue to be my primary carry gun and I am fine with that as I cannot say that anything short of my .308 M1A with a twenty round mag would have made me feel safe against that type of threat.
My second caveat is that when in the woods in South Central Pa. wheree I live now with Black Bears and other critters it is my firm belief that a .45 cal Hardcast Bullet going as fast as you can shoot it while controlling the weapon is the best option for the outdoors.
Again, just my 2 cents
I do not own any nines at the moment. My constant carry gun is a Smith 340pd stoked with my handloads that give 1150fps to a Hornady 125gr. XTP. That is about equal to a "decent" 9mm SD load and I feel reasonably safe with it on a daily basis. So I guess my anwer is yes I would be confident with a semi 9mm with a higher cap. Two caveats to that; just about a month ago I pulled into a parking space at WalMart that apparently someone else wanted, the man got out of his car and began to curse at me, I am 5'9" 185lb. and disabled, and no it was not a disabled space, I can still walk some. The agrieved party was about 6'8" and over 400lb. He approached me in a very threataning manner, at that moment I felt somewhat undergunned. Thank God the situation deescelated and nothing happened but I was wishing for "more gun" at the time. I am not sure a light HP even at high speed would have given the penetration needed to stop the threat with a center mass shot. And in this thread the critical factor is not if they die, it is if they STOP IMMEDIATLY. Nonetheless, my 340 will continue to be my primary carry gun and I am fine with that as I cannot say that anything short of my .308 M1A with a twenty round mag would have made me feel safe against that type of threat.
My second caveat is that when in the woods in South Central Pa. wheree I live now with Black Bears and other critters it is my firm belief that a .45 cal Hardcast Bullet going as fast as you can shoot it while controlling the weapon is the best option for the outdoors.
Again, just my 2 cents
trigger happy
New member
I'd carry a 9mm
I carry 25 rnds of CorBon DPX +P 115gr JHP and I am completely comfortable with it . Here is a chart that might help you decide . scroll down for the chart .
Selecting the Duty Weapon--Is Caliber the Key?
http://www.neiassociates.org/caliber.htm
Selecting the Duty Weapon--Is Caliber the Key?
http://www.neiassociates.org/caliber.htm
ActivShootr
New member
Of course not! How bad Kimbers suck, how ugly Glocks are, and the use of MIM parts and locks on S&Ws will always be an ongoing b*tch session.
Deaf Smith
New member
Confident with my 9mm, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, .38 Spl., .357 magnum, .45 ACP...
Shoot'en strait is far far more important than what exact round you have (and yes, even FMJ can do the deed fine if you are a strait shooter.)
The larger the round, the more clout, but the differience is not all that great.
And the size of the gun (and weight) also matter as for contol. Not only as for how heavy it is, but how it's shaped. Called egromonics. That matters to.
I practice so much for IDPA and some of the courses I attend that skill wise I'm not at all worried, be it 9mm, .38 or whatever. With either hand to.
Might not be real happy with a .25 auto, but I'm sure I could make even a good size .380, like a Sig 232 or 9x18 Makarov, do the deed.
I carry a Glock 27 cuase I got it cheep. It has night sights and NY-1 trigger, as does my Glock 26, Glock 19, Glock 32, and Glock 23. Only my IDPA state Glock 17 has a 5 lb regular trigger (and I might just move it up to a NY-1 to.)
But I have wheelguns, and 1911s, and Sig SA/DAs, and other toys and I know well how to use them. I grew up on Colt 'O' and Smith 'K' frames.
Don't spend so much time on hardware and what kind of cartridge you use (or even make of bullet for that cartridge.) Spend the time practing gun handling and shooting and how to read the street. That's where the real confidence builder is.
Shoot'en strait is far far more important than what exact round you have (and yes, even FMJ can do the deed fine if you are a strait shooter.)
The larger the round, the more clout, but the differience is not all that great.
And the size of the gun (and weight) also matter as for contol. Not only as for how heavy it is, but how it's shaped. Called egromonics. That matters to.
I practice so much for IDPA and some of the courses I attend that skill wise I'm not at all worried, be it 9mm, .38 or whatever. With either hand to.
Might not be real happy with a .25 auto, but I'm sure I could make even a good size .380, like a Sig 232 or 9x18 Makarov, do the deed.
I carry a Glock 27 cuase I got it cheep. It has night sights and NY-1 trigger, as does my Glock 26, Glock 19, Glock 32, and Glock 23. Only my IDPA state Glock 17 has a 5 lb regular trigger (and I might just move it up to a NY-1 to.)
But I have wheelguns, and 1911s, and Sig SA/DAs, and other toys and I know well how to use them. I grew up on Colt 'O' and Smith 'K' frames.
Don't spend so much time on hardware and what kind of cartridge you use (or even make of bullet for that cartridge.) Spend the time practing gun handling and shooting and how to read the street. That's where the real confidence builder is.
Beentown71
New member
Yep. 33 rounds of Remington Golden Sabre 124g +p
Practice gives me the confidence not the round. I am a bit loaded for zombies
but if it fits in my magazines then why not fill it to the brim
Happy shooting,
Beentown
Practice gives me the confidence not the round. I am a bit loaded for zombies
but if it fits in my magazines then why not fill it to the brimHappy shooting,
Beentown
My sword is 2.0 inches wide and 36 inches long.
Bah! Unarmed fool! Mine is 2.1 inches wide and 34 inches long!
Still another comes along with slightly, key word there, different dimensions.
And so on...
The warrior in the corner only roles his eyes.
My math may be off? So what. You get the idea.
Bah! Unarmed fool! Mine is 2.1 inches wide and 34 inches long!
Still another comes along with slightly, key word there, different dimensions.
And so on...
The warrior in the corner only roles his eyes.
My math may be off? So what. You get the idea.
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