Should you even bother with JHP's in .380

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Bill

It's a very good argument, if you can shoot well enough to pull it off.
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I have provided evidence that hitting a man sized target is extremely difficult. You'll not find anyone who argues over the effectiveness of headshots. What I contend is making one is extremely difficult and a poor tatic to count on to save your life. If you can provide evidence that trusting your life to a planned aimed headshot is a good tatic I'd love to see it.
 
kinoons "I have provided evidence that hitting a man sized target is extremely difficult"

So one article is evidence? Written by who?

I think that under pressure it is much harder to make good hits. Doesn't make it fact.
 
So instead of offering something constructive the the thread you just want to poo poo on my post. Did you even read the link I posted. I realize that 18 pages of reading may be a bit daunting, but come on, you can do it!

Yes, I have offered evidence that stressful shooting reduces accuracy. Do you care to contend this statement? I've done some research to defend my position with facts and figures. If you want to argue otherwise please bring some of your own to the discussion.
 
kinoons "Yes, I have offered evidence that stressful shooting reduces accuracy. Do you care to contend this statement? I've done some research to defend my position with facts and figures. If you want to argue otherwise please bring some of your own to the discussion".

No you offered one article written by? I can go on line and find all kinds of things that will go with my way of thinking, doesn't make them right.
I even read the article and so, I even said I agree that accuracy goes away with stress. But my opinion doesn't make it right. O ya this isn't a thread about accuracy or calibers it's about the 380 and bullet design. I have offered opinions on what the thread is about and I wasn't "poo pooing" what you had to offer. Maybe you should read what others here have written.
 
I have provided evidence that hitting a man sized target is extremely difficult. You'll not find anyone who argues over the effectiveness of headshots. What I contend is making one is extremely difficult and a poor tatic to count on to save your life. If you can provide evidence that trusting your life to a planned aimed headshot is a good tatic I'd love to see it.
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What does or does not work for any general group of police officer certainly does not apply to all individuals. I for one have was once a contender for shooting in the olympics and due to training can consciously choose which eye is dominant. The over all effect is that I have a much better ability to judge distance than people with normal vision and is also the reason I couldnt fly helicopters for the military as they view it as a disqualification.

Further having been in combat and having exchanged fire in combat more than I care to remember I have experience that might take a officer a lifetime to aquire if ever.

Im not claiming to be some Rambo, but with constant drill and training Im not in your odds. I regularly practice at 50 to 60 ft with my pistol, shorter distances are just that much easier.

Lastly let us not forget that most police engagements happen within 5 or less feet of the officer. Im not out there enforcing the law but rather being vigilant and probably in general not as in great a degree of personal danger.
 
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Bgutz:

First thank you for your time in the service. Your experience is not equal to 99.9% of the general public. Trying to equate your ability to that of your average police officer, much less average person, is not plausible (I don't believe that you're saying it is, just pointing that out). It would be dangerous for someone to believe that they are able to shoot with the degree of precision you claim to be able to.

As the thread initially ask, JHP rounds do not perform well enough in a 380 to be useful for self defense. Because of this if a 380 is the -only- choice FMJ rounds should be used. If any larger option is available it should be used with JHP rounds. Given the size of modern compact 9mm pistols size is a poor argument to not carrying one. Trying to find any justification for the defensive use of a 380 pistol is forcing a square peg in a round hole.
 
Just thinking....a pistol in .410 firing a 2.75" 3-pellet 000 Buck load should have the same effect as a LCP firing three rounds of .380ACP, right?.....

Maybe there's some merit to the .410 pistols after all....or in .380ACP pistols that fire 3-round bursts.....
 
Comm--

You can roll your eyes all you want. I have demonstrated that the .380 pistol does not penetrate well enough (12" of gel) with a hallowpoint to be effective. I have also demonstrated that relying on marksmanship prowless to guarantee headshots is foolhardy. These two factors mean that the .380 is a poor defensive pistol. If you have evidence to prove otherwise I'd love to see it.

The argument can be made that all pistols are poor defensive choices since the need to shoot mutiple times is preset with all pistol caliber and size firearms. Since society frowns on walking around with a rifle or shotgun at all times we have to accept this limitation. Working within this requirement one should choose a service caliber (9x19 or larger) handgun to ensure the best odds incase of a defensive shooting.

As far as .410 shotgun shells out of a pistol -- I'll state right now that I wouldn't carry that either. Please see this link.

http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/02/robert-farago/shotgun-penetration-with-various-rounds/

As noted #4 buckshot from a full size shotgun barely penetrates the required 12" of gel. 00 shot made it through 18" of gel, but again out of a full size shotgun. I do not believe that the same penetration would be achieved via a handgun sized shotgun.
 
i hope you're joking seeker. there is a huge difference between shot and bullets that have engineering behind them. and really either would be useless. unless you are shooting at anorexic or naked people the 380 is going to have almost no effect. the 380 is like a smaller slower 9mm, and most people will agree that the 9mm is a wimpy round.

even the tiny tiny 22lr has more energy than a 380 although it doesn't have near as much momentum.
 
even the tiny tiny 22lr has more energy than a 380
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The .380 out of a pistol has about 50%-60% more energy than a standard velocity .22LR round out of a rifle. It's a closer comparison if you look at the HV .22LR rounds available and compare the .22LR HV out of a rifle to the .380ACP out of a pistol. Even so the .380 still typically wins by a little. When you compare both calibers out of pistol length barrels the .380 is the hands down winner.
...unless you are shooting at anorexic or naked people the 380 is going to have almost no effect.
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I'm going to assume you're joking, point out that your quip is not amusing and leave it at that.
 
i hope you're joking seeker. there is a huge difference between shot and bullets that have engineering behind them. and really either would be useless. unless you are shooting at anorexic or naked people the 380 is going to have almost no effect. the 380 is like a smaller slower 9mm, and most people will agree that the 9mm is a wimpy round.

even the tiny tiny 22lr has more energy than a 380 although it doesn't have near as much momentum.
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Lots of mis-information here. I take it that your day job is as a human shield and that you stop 380 and 9mm loads with your body on a daily basis...or are you naked or anorexic?
 
i hope you're joking seeker. there is a huge difference between shot and bullets that have engineering behind them. and really either would be useless. unless you are shooting at anorexic or naked people the 380 is going to have almost no effect. the 380 is like a smaller slower 9mm, and most people will agree that the 9mm is a wimpy round.

even the tiny tiny 22lr has more energy than a 380 although it doesn't have near as much momentum.
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Yeah this is just plain silliness. I'm all for intelligent discussions about the merits and faults concerning any round or firearm, but trying to compare a 380 to a 22lr is disingenuous at best. Okay, I'll bite what evidence do you have to support this claim?
 
kinoons

You haven't demonstrated anything. You hare posted some links from other unknown people. Why would this change my mind? You have proven nothing...
 
Okay so you're one of those "if it isn't my evidence then it's crap" people. Just because you are not familiar with an author it does not make his research any less valid. Saying "your research sucks" without offering any of your own does nothing to further your point of view and only supports mine.

I have offered evidence that shooting well under stress is difficult. The FBI has established the minimal acceptable penetration in gel is 12". Care to offer a .380 JHP round that consistently expands and penetrates gel more than 12"? Do you have any information that shows shooting under stress is similar to popping off a few rounds during practice?
 
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This is a weird thread. I see "feelings" cited as ample reason to choose one bullet configuration over another over and over. I thought all this had been settled in the Seecamp argument for the .32 STHP over the FMJ. But those cold figures are no barrier to the snuggly "feelings" argument, eh? For those going by "feelings," let's consider for one fleeting moment that all anti-gun arguments are "feelings" arguments, and all pro-gun arguments are "facts" arguments. OK, I'll let you all go. My popcorn's almost done.
 
Kinoons, Studies Are "Interesting"...

....for what they are and how they are done. I've never worried about gel and how it equates to a body, two different things.

Two types of "stress", there's the induced physical such as the FBI runs in the run a mile then shoot a barricade course. Any physical activity makes it harder to shoot well.

Then there's the kind where the pressure is on, life and death kind of pressure. Many don't do well with that simply because they aren't used to it. Others are used to the pressure of critical circumstance stresses and that type brings in a better focus that simply means they are going to hit exactly what they are aiming at because it's critical that they do.

It's hard to argue what's good enough for different people. When this subject comes up I generally enter in the fact that the smaller a .380 gets the harder it is to shoot and follow up shots with.

This topic being about hollowpoint specialty bullets versus solid points, hollowpoints are going to do more damage. How much penetration do you need for a chest/heart/head shot? If your shot is somewhat off damage is the factor not whether it goes through the person. If you need to enter in the damage involved with lousy shots maybe (you do) need a bigger caliber, may the force be with you cause you're gonna need it. :rolleyes:

I suspect there is a difference between my .380 Beretta model 86 reference and the little pocket guns many are referring to when they want to analyze .380's. This is a 50 yard accurate pistol that is easy to shoot fast. At 15 feet anything I shoot will be within an inch of where it was meant to be.

I'll opt for the damage a hollowpoint does versus a solid point, and stick with the bigger gun platform as well, it fits in my inside jacket pockets and 4:00 belt position just fine. It's not really "small" but it's small enough.

Went out shooting the other day with a friend, we had four or five pistols and this .380 was the one we put three boxes of rounds through shooting at cans between 20 and 35 yards. Little pocket .380's do not garner that kind of enthusiasm, we had a .40 MilPro, a S&W 1911 .45, a Diamondback .22, and a Python .357 as well.

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One other thing, we shot three boxes of ball solid points, and some CorBons and Talon hollowpoints. There is a considerable amount of kick and snap that isn't there with the standard ammo. This will undoubtedly contribute to much more steam in terms of velocity and power.
 
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Great thread guys! Thank you for all of the replies. Based on all the answers I've gotten I have decided to split the difference. In my LCP I'll carry three JHP's followed by four FMJ's. I will bet that if I am having an "active disagreement" with someone who is not effected by three hollow points, cavitation and shoot throughs will no longer be a large concern... :rolleyes:
 
kinoons "Okay so you're one of those "if it isn't my evidence then it's crap" people"

Not true at all, I just like to see what evidence that you have posted about what the thread is about. You haven't except you opinion the .380 is crap for self defense. You did post something that has nothing to do with HP or FMJ .380.

I like to listen to people who have some kind of knowledge about actual shootings or bullet design. People like Cor-bon or Marshall & Sanow who post in their book "Stopping Power" that Federal HS or Cor-bon JHP in .380 both have a 71% stopping rate for one shot,. I feel that is pretty good especial since I'm not going to just pull the trigger once. They also say that Federal FMj has a 55% one shot stop. I'll stick with HP.

So if you can show me were you posted any information pertaining to this thread that would be great.:rolleyes:
 
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