Should you even bother with JHP's in .380

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I alternate the two rounds in my Kel-Tec 380 magazine to get the best of both worlds!
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I'm sorry, but if I'm so worried that a load that I'm carrying is not going to do the job it sure as heck is not going to be in my gun. I've never subscribed to this "mixed salad" technique.

I think that the issue here is that everyone knows or is witnessing that the 380 ACP in these small, pocket pistols has backup gun performance. A hollow point 380 ACP self defense load is only going to produce 8"-12" of penetration on average. This is where the cross road is at; if 8"-12" of penetration is sufficient for you to sleep well at night then you carry a hollow point load. If not then I guess you are left with fmj loads. Obviously, fmj loads are not the best alternative for a self defense load, but the bottom line is carry something that will make you sleep well at night. For me, if the gun does not give me the performance I want with a hp self defense load then it is time for me to step up in caliber. It is all with with what you feel comfortable carrying. Personally, I wouldn't want to be shot with either.
 
Its interesting that some people think the 380 is totally inadequate for self defense. Almost any pistol regardless of caliber requires something vital to be hit in order "stop" an opponent. Yes I am definitely of the train of though that a larger caliber is generally better but the truth is a 22 in the right spot is as effective as a 50 cal or a 500 magnum with triple deathray lasers because dead is dead and you just cant really get to a greater degree of death.

And yes I agree that a larger cal is IMHO probably more appropriate but their are times and occasions my Sig P220 Carry wont fit into my shorts without attracting attention so a 380 isnt a bad choice and certainly better than nothing.
 
a lot of good stuff here.
i had been carrying hornady CD because of concerns about penetration thru heavy clothing. the expansion and penetration was very inconsistent when firing thru layers of denim or leather. the rounds that penetrated did not expand like it the pics on the hornady website.
i carry a sig 238 as both a bug and a primary, so i asked a lot of those questions to "the boys" at buffalo bore. their answer is actually on the website.
alternate their +p jhp and the +p fn fmj in the mag. best of both worlds.
now, my little sig wouldn't reliably feed the fn fmj, so i tried the jhp +p thru the denim and leather. avg penetration was 10" and expansion was fairly consistent at 0.42 to 0.45. not spectacular, but more than enough to deter the avg threat, or at least give you time to either get away or shoot for the kill.
having said that, when i carry the sig as a primary, one to the chest, rest to the head.
i have confidence in the +p 380, but you have to adapt your tactics.
jmho
 
Ya know, I've seen this argument go back and forth for as long as I've been on this board.

It's always been an amusing academic foray, that is, until last Monday.

That day I was the victim of an attempted armed robbery and had to draw my weapon.

That weapon was a Glock 26 and while, fortunately, no shots were fired, the goblins ran at the sight of the "Glock 9", I was glad to have those 13 rounds of 9mm, not .380.

Those of us here who have had the same experience, no doubt, will concur.

No more sub calibers for me. It's 9mm Para or above from now on.
 
wth? you think they ran from your gun because they could somehow tell it was 9mm glock and not .380? because glocks in different calibers look so different? are you really that naive?
 
I don't think that was his point at all. I think that his point was that he felt much more secure in his protection with the 9mm than if he had a 380. This situation brought this true feeling to light.

Denfoote, glad you are alright.
 
Glenn E. Meyer I'm glad they don't sell the Glock 25 or 28 in the USA as everyone reading this thread would have their heads blow up.
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Which is a shame......because the .380 when fired from a Glock will expand and penetrate deeper than .380 fired from a from a Bersa. ;)
 
Its interesting that some people think the 380 is totally inadequate for self defense. Almost any pistol regardless of caliber requires something vital to be hit in order "stop" an opponent. Yes I am definitely of the train of though that a larger caliber is generally better but the truth is a 22 in the right spot is as effective as a 50 cal or a 500 magnum with triple deathray lasers because dead is dead and you just cant really get to a greater degree of death.
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This flawed thinking is not entirely true. You're thinking two dimensionally in a three dimensional world. A center mass shot with a 380 that does not penetrate to the vital arteries, heart, or CNS will not be effective. A 9mm round to the exact same location that does penetrate to the vital arteries, heart, or CNS will be effective (effective=end of action IE bad guy is unable to continuing fighting, not bad guy chooses to not continue fighting). While gel testing is not perfectly equal to live tissue it's the best analog we have. The standard has been set for 12" of gel to maxamize the likelihood of reaching those critical organs.

Again, you're in a fight for your life. I want the deck stacked completely in my favor.
 
This flawed thinking is not entirely true. You're thinking two dimensionally in a three dimensional world. A center mass shot with a 380 that does not penetrate to the vital arteries, heart, or CNS will not be effective. A 9mm round to the exact same location that does penetrate to the vital arteries, heart, or CNS will be effective (effective=end of action IE bad guy is unable to continuing fighting, not bad guy chooses to not continue fighting). While gel testing is not perfectly equal to live tissue it's the best analog we have. The standard has been set for 12" of gel to maxamize the likelihood of reaching those critical organs.
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If Im the one pulling the trigger on the 380 Im not aiming center mass Im going for a headshot and with practice and a crimson trace on my side I have a reasonable degree of assurance of obtaining that hit.

Further my arguement is not that the 380 is by anymeans the utlimate self defense gun but neither is it totally usless especially with todays super premium ammo and a bit of testing for the truth.

I as much confess that by far I prefer to carry my 45 but there are times when a very small pistol is the only appropriate choice for the occasion and the XXX whatever gun you choose may be too large.
 
kinoons "A center mass shot with a 380 that does not penetrate to the vital arteries, heart, or CNS will not be effective. A 9mm round to the exact same location that does penetrate to the vital arteries, heart, or CNS will be effective"

How does he have flawed thinking? You are talking in "if's" "If the 380 doesn't penetrate" "If a 9mm does"

That can go both ways, what if the 380 did penetrate and the 9mm didn't? There are so many variables there that are out of your control.
 
Ah yes, the old i'll shoot them in the head argument.

As noted here http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf police hit probability varied from as high as 60% to as low as 9% depending on agency and distance.

Officers trained to shoot center of mass can miss as many as 9 out of 10 shots. Even at short distances (0-2 yards) the hit ratio was 38%.

The head is a small and often moving target. To simply state that I don't have to worry I'll shoot the badguy in the head is also a flawed approach to defensive shooting and a poor justification to use a 380

To the argument that a 9mm round also may not penetrate into a person either -- this is true. No handgun is guaranteed to produce a one shot stop. You'll most likely need to shoot more than once with any handgun.

With that given, the desire is to increase the odds that the rounds that do hit home (maybe 30% of those fired) will cause substantial damage. Service caliber rounds (9x19 and up) all greatly improve those odds, the 380 does not.

Again, a large number of variables are present anytime you need to shoot someone. The best you can do is to get as many of those variables in your favor as possible. Since you can control the caliber of your handgun pick one that stacks the deck in tour favor. To this point the 380 is not one of those calibers.
 
It's a very good argument, if you can shoot well enough to pull it off.
No handgun round is a shure stopper. The only sure way to "stop" is a CNS hit.
Bigger is better, but only marginally so-very marginally. Caliber does not make up for poor shooting
 
kinoons "To the argument that a 9mm round also may not penetrate into a person either -- this is true. No handgun is guaranteed to produce a one shot stop. You'll most likely need to shoot more than once with any handgun".
Exactly!
This isn't a thread war post:rolleyes:
 
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