Should you even bother with JHP's in .380

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I'll ask again..........

I would still like to know why a .380 hollow point that doesn't expand, somehow penetrates less than a .380 fmj that doesn't expand.
 
I would still like to know why a .380 hollow point that doesn't expand, somehow penetrates less than a .380 fmj that doesn't expand.
HP bullets are lighter than their FMJ counterparts and thus have less momentum and thus less penetration. HP in 380 auto is typically 77-90 grain. FMJ is typically 95-100 grain.
 
Crosshair "HP bullets are lighter than their FMJ counterparts and thus have less momentum and thus less penetration. HP in 380 auto is typically 77-90 grain. FMJ is typically 95-100 grain".

Not really, most of the FMJ I've seen are 95grain and a lot of the HP's I've seen are between 90-92 grains. Not much of a difference.
Sure there are some heavier & lighter on both ends but not by much.
 
I sometimes carry a .32, and always load with ball for

penetration. I use an FEG PPK type pistol-has a long enough barrel to get what there is out of the round, and it is extremely reliable, accurate and easy to conceal and shoot well. I carry S&B .32 acp ammo - it is loaded hotter than most US brands.

mark

added-there is a good srticle at Box-O-Truth regarding penetration of smaller caliber rounds, ball vs HP's...Ball wins.
 
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Not really, most of the FMJ I've seen are 95grain and a lot of the HP's I've seen are between 90-92 grains. Not much of a difference.

The common HP stuff I have seen is generally under 90 grains. Like the 88 grain Remington load that is rather common.
 
30-30remchester

Is actually looking at just about the best performace test possible with deer and antelope bodies. I'm actually surprised he's seen a .380 go clean through.

Anyone who's actually seen multiple examples like that is going to have a better confidence in the caliber for sure.

Sure trashes the guys who are convinced it won't penetrate winter clothes though. :rolleyes:
 
"The common HP stuff I have seen is generally under 90 grains. Like the 88 grain Remington load that is rather common."

Go search Midway USA and see what they have.
 
Go search Midway USA and see what they have.
A great many people still do not buy their ammunition online. Just like a great many don't reload. For them, midway is totally irrelevant. If it's not in the store it does not exist to them. They are not going to drop a hundred or so dollars to buy several hundred rounds of ammo so the shipping becomes cost effective.

Hell, the only way I got a friend to buy 2K of 7.62x39 was for me to buy some too and split shipping and he's into guns and computers more than your average person.

I went to Midway to see what was there. I hope my counting was good.

24 hollow point loads 90 grains or less
6 hollow point loads more than 90 grains.

So 80% of the HP loads use bullets 90 grains or lighter.

22 FMJ loads 95 grains or more. (I didn't count the lead rounds.)
5 FMJ loads 95grains or less.

So 81% of the HP loads use bullets 95 grains or heavier. So on average the FMJ loads are heavier than the HP loads.
 
It depends on the gun and the JHP loading in question. The problem with many .380 JHP's is that they can't expand reliably and penetrate adequately, particularly when fired from the short barrels that are popular on many .380 guns these days.

If I'm using a gun with a barrel shorter than three inches, the only JHP's I'd trust are Cor-Bon DPX, Speer Gold Dots, Buffalo Bore 90grn JHP, or Hornady Critical Defense. If my gun has a 3" or longer barrel like a Walther PPK, Bersa Thunder, or Sig P230, I'd also add Federal Hydra-Shoks to the list. If none of the afforementioned loadings was avaialable or reliable in my gun, I'd use plain-old 95grn FMJ because if forced to choose, I'll take penetration over expansion. While I have no doubt that loadings like Buffalo Bore's 100grn Hardcast perform as-advertised, a regular .380 FMJ has plenty of penetration the way it is and I don't really see the extra recoil and expense being worth the trouble.
 
Just my $.02 any hollowpoint that fails to exspand will just keep goin, me and a friend were testing ammo one day and a .380 went through 5 one gallon waterjugs cause it failed to exspand. He just tested winchester pdx and it opened up to about an inch in open water two out of three times.
 
You got me on that, thanks for the lesson on "most people". So 10 grains or less makes that big of a difference? I really doubt it, or is it 5 grains? Like I said in my original post "stuck in 1977".
 
IMHO (which is just that) all self defense rounds should be hollowpoints. .380 hollowpoints do not penetrate well enough to be considered for self defense (FBI required 12" of gel). Because of this fact the .380 is not acceptable for primary self defense use. With the advent of small 9x19 and .40 cal handguns the best choice really is to step up to a service caliber gun.
 
Just my $.02 any hollowpoint that fails to exspand will just keep goin, me and a friend were testing ammo one day and a .380 went through 5 one gallon waterjugs cause it failed to exspand. He just tested winchester pdx and it opened up to about an inch in open water two out of three times.

The problem isn't JHP's that don't expand as with them you're no worse off than with FMJ. The problem is JHP's the don't penetrate enough when they do expand. If you pick the wrong JHP in a .380, you might get expansion or you might get penetration, but you probably won't get adequate amounts of both. With FMJ, you at least know that you will get penetration.
 
I don't know about y'all....

But I won't be shootin' water :rolleyes:

And I doubt Winchester did their development work on water either.
 
Use brass jacketed FMJ bullets. We are talking .380 acp here.

Expanding bullets in a .380 acp would have to have extremely thin jackets and extremely soft, pure, unalloyed lead. They would also need more "power" behind them than you normally find inside of a 380 acp casing, in order to work well. You are not talking much in the way of pressure or energy or power at all in general when you talk about a round like the .380 acp. Still, it has it's proven place in the line of cartridges engineered for personal defense.

While shooting JHP .380 acp into old phone books may be interesting in the way of an "experiment" that shows good expansion, you have to keep in mind that the human body is far from being constructed like a telephone book. The human body is not a block of gelatin, either. There are some things to consider here.

You have to get the bullet through clothing. You have to get through varying thickness of skin, underwhich is first found certificial muscle tissue of varying thickness, hydration and density. Then there is varying degrees of thickness, hydration and density in fat and cartilage. then you have varying degrees of thickness, hydration and density in standard muscle tissue. under that you begin to reach bones of varying densities and thicknesses. It is not until your bullet makes it through all of those layers that you will even begin to find nerve clusters, and important internal organs. You have a lot of material to shoot through to get to the vitals that will "shut down" your attacker. A JHP will hinder that process in a round such as the .380 acp. It will stop in the outer layers of the body and maybe not reach a vital point inside of the body.

When dealing with low pressures and low power, you need to concentrate your efforts on getting that projectile deep inside of the body cavity. A JHP in a round like .380 ACP will hinder that process. You need to go for the deep penetration instead. Consider that an unexpanded FMJ .380 slug arriving inside of the body cavity and striking a major internal organ will shut down your attacker. It does not have to expand to do that. It simply needs to arrive deep inside of the body. A quick-expander lodged in certificial muscle tissue will not shut down an attacker. In fact it might cause him adrenalin surges while his body is still mechanically intact to carry out the attack on your person with more vitality than at the outset of the attack.

Get the hardest most solid FMJ for your .380 acp you can find and stick with it. Use brass jacketed FMJ over the copper, because the brass ones are harder and likely to penetrate deeper. Copper is softer than brass and it will distort a little bit on impact. That could reduce penetration.

.380 acp is a very deadly cartridge when used correctly. Guns made for it are opften very concealable. They are small but they have a reasonable sized bore diameter. They throw a reasonably sized projectile. But none of that means anything unless you can get that projectile into the body cavity where it can contact vitals.

Use brass FMJ for defensive rounds. Use a good quality handgun as well. Expanding bullets in a low-pressure round may not be a good idea at all in a cartridge like this one.
 
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Gator Weiss are you in the bullet design or manufacturing business? I think that manufactures and designers think of all the things that you talked about. That's what they do! Checking bullet performance in different mediums is what we do to get an idea if things work. The gentleman who mentioned that he has shot freshly down game has his own special medium to shot at. Some use milk jugs, sorry I don't have any warm cadavers to shoot at.:rolleyes:

I shot some .32NAA when they first came out, into water jugs and didn't get the performance I thought I should. So I e-mailed CorBon to ask why and they explained to me that the body and water don't have the same effect on bullet performance. They were a great source of info since that's what they do. I tend to believe they have already done the work for us. In fact when CorBon e-mailed me they mentioned that they rarely get customers doing their own performance tests.
 
I just want to thank you all. Three pages and no knuckle-dragger has suggested that skeptics go downrange and be fired upon with a .380 fmj.

This forum is much better than some out there.

Nice civilized and informative discussion.
 
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